WW1 Medals

[hiyamarra]

Hi David
Thanks for your input. We had ascertained those facts, but thanks for confirming we're all on the same trail.

Martin
Again, many thanks for your work and thoughts.
Yes, you have the correct person on the 1911 census
Something to ponder which could fit in with your thoughts.
Perhaps John was discharged at some stage due to his age, but as his eldest son Alf had been killed in March 1915, John wanted another bash at the enemy and as you say re-enlisted as John Cooper on the London Rgt which is just about as far away as you can get from the Border Rgt.

Thanks for the link to the Border Rgt forum, i'll see if anyone there can shed some light
Thanks again
David

[BradfordPal]

David

I think that is more than a reasonable conclusion to come to.  Pity it cannot be proven at the moment.

One thing I don't understand.  I can see why John didn't use the Holmes surname but why did Alfred sign up as Cooper and not Holmes. Even the additional information on CWGC for Alf says "Son of John and Ellen Cooper, of 31, St. Helen's St., Cockermouth, Cumberland." So where did the Holmes surname keep disappearing to?

Martin

[John915]

Good morning,

Sometimes the name change is the Army's way of saying they didn't want enlisted men with 2 surnames. My grandfather was Ernest BENNETT TEDHAM but he was enlisted as TEDHAM. His older brother, Francis BENNETT TEDHAM was enlisted as BENNETT. Both in the Royal Sussex.

John915

[hiyamarra]

Morning Martin
The confusion with Cooper & Holmes goes back to the illegitimate birth of John Holmes in 1809 son of Esher Holmes. Two years later, Esther married John Cooper, from then on John b1809 became known as John Cooper Holmes, Cooper being a middle name. John married Ann Vickers and all their children were given the middle name Cooper and so on through following generations. I don't have all the birth certs' just my direct line ones and they all show Cooper as a middle name as do all the marriage certs' I have. However on many census they are show sometimes as Holmes, sometimes as Cooper so it's a bit confusing. It seams that on all official documents they always used Holmes. Many of my direct male ancestors were builders or wallers, they are shown in various business directories sometimes as Holmes sometimes as Cooper. On my fathers birth cert he is shown as Cooper-Holmes but the hyphen and Cooper are crossed out and Cooper re-entered as middle name. All very confusing.
With regards to my G Grandfather John, it seems strange that he had his 14 star re-issued correctly as J C Holmes, but didn't do it with his War & Victory medals. Interestingly the card state "the man enlisted as J Cooper Holmes so what did Alfred enlist as ? Family tales are that they enlisted together.
I tried to sign up to the Border Rgt forum, but it's not available until after 17th. I'll try them as well as the museum to see if they can help, particlarly about his 10th London medals
David

[km1971]

The 5th Borders were given the block starting 240001 in March 1917 when the TF were renumbered. So he was the 420th longest surviving member of 5th Borders. So he may have joined pre WW1. But you will need to check men in the 5th Borders with nearby numbers until you find one with a surviving Service Record and/or Pension file.

10th London were given the block starting 420001 so he was the 3536th man in the 10th London. Which suggests very late on. So - assuming the same man - he could have taken his discharge from the 5th Borders after his four years were up, sometime after March 1917. He then could have been conscripted back into the army - into 10th London. So you need to discover when 423536 was issued as well.

You should check the Silver War Badge roll in case he received a medical discharge from the Border Regiment. Men who discharged themselves after 15/18 years ( I cannot remember which) were also entitled to a SWB. So if he is not on the roll he was discharged 'time expired'. Without a SWB he may even have decided to re-enlist as life on the street would have been tough without one.

He was obviously committing an offence by accepting a second set of medals. So he would not have worn them together.

btw.. his Borders Star and his London BWM and VM are his legal ones.

Ken

[hiyamarra]

Ken
Thank you so much for your input to my questions.
As a relative novice to genealogy and a total beginner on military research I have been feeling a bit like a fish out of water. You are certainly helping me to build a picture of my ancestors at that time.
You say, "when the TF were renumbered" excuse my ignorance but what does that mean ?
I don't believe John enlisted prior to the war, as the family for 4 previous generations were wallers, builders or master masons with their own business. They also owned property including at least 1 pub. John's son Alfred who was killed, was apprenticed to John. Family tales are that John & Alfred enlisted together on the same day. If this were true, would it have been normal to put them in different battalions, as Alf was in 2nd his number being 10734.
What do you mean by "Silver War Badge", and where can I find the roll.
Would it have been normal for him to be issued 2 sets of medals if the London regiment didn't know about him being in the Border Rgt. If he was 45 when he enlisted in the Border Rgt, would it have been normal for a man of 48 to be conscripted into the 10th London, and if so, why a regiment based so far away.
Sorry for all the questions, but you are obviously very knowledgeable and your help is tremendous
Many thanks
David