A muddle, and maybe a hopeless one

[chinakay]

My g-g-g-grandfather was born 1811/1812 in Dolwyddelan. I have certs and census data to support this and should, I suppose, be satisfied...but I'm greedy...I want to push it back another generation.

So I looked for Robert Ellis' birth in the IGI, and there it was! Oh, wait there's another one...What? Three of them, all born in Dolwyddelan in 1811, two of them baptised the same day.

Three sets of parents: Ellis Williams & Margaret, Ellis Roberts & Elin, and Ellis Holland and Judith.

Do I have a hope of sorting out this mess? By the 1841 there's only one Robert Ellis in Dolwyddelan, and his daughters are named Elin, Judith and Ann. Where do I even start trying to pick the right lot?

Cheers,
China

[Shropshire Lass]

This is a rotter, isn't it?  How thoughtless of Robert to give two of his daughters the same names as two of the possible mothers!

Can't come up with anything immediately but will sleep on it.  There must be some way.

Monica

[chinakay]

  How thoughtless

My sentiments exactly.

Cheers,
C
 

[Arranroots]

Hi Chinakay (and Monica!)

I am not very clear about the patronymic naming system - didn't realise it went on so late - so this might be a bit cock-eyed, but...

I had a look at the 1841 census to see whether any of the putative parents had survived that long.  I found these:

1841

William ELLIS 58 (yes, I know it should be the other way round!) & Mrgt 56- farmers - have gdau Margt ROBERTS aged 1 with them (There is no Margaret with Robert in 1851, but this doesn't entirely rule them out if there is a Robert WILLIAMS lurking somewhere - but then wouldn't his daughter be WILLIAMS too?)

Ellis WILLIAMS is 78 and living with (son?) William WILLIAMS, who is a farmer (doesn't prove much either way)

Have you managed to find the siblings of the Robert ELLISes? 

Have you found the other Roberts in 1851 to see what they have called their children etc?

Yours has further children and it might be possible to trace name patterns in later generations.  It might also be possible to associate the possible parents with siblings in censuses.

Have you identified a marriage for Robert and Ann?  There just might be father's names around that date.  Failing that, siblings might have married after 1837 and their certs might be helpful.

Not sure that I am helping much here, but I am recommending that you widen your search to see whether there are clues to the parents elsewhere.

Will look forward to hearing about developments

kind regards, Arranroots 

[Gadget]

A word of warning with the IGI in Wales:

pre 1812, the IGI appears to use the patronymic form regardless of whether it was in use or not, so some of your Robert Ellis's may well be just sons of an Ellis <something else>

I have had this problem a few times and it takes ages to sort out.

My Robert Ellis (with a brother John Ellis) was the son of Ellis ap John Robert  Luckily, I had church records to check them.

Regards

Gadget

[Peterej]

Hello again China

I agree with Arranroots as to the best way forward. You have presumably a copy birth certificate of one of the children which will provide mother's maiden name so that a search can be made for the wedding which may provide the father's name.
As far as patronymics is concerned then there is as Gadget says a possibility of it occurring and also from my experience. Of course with your Williams family Arranroots may be on to something.
One other thought is burials. It is possible that one of the children especially if they died young will be buried with grandparents. This happened with me in Dolwyddelan and took me into patronymics. I know from when I visited Caernarfon archives a few years ago that the MI's in St Garmon's church have been done although there is also another graveyard nearby and I am not sure about this. A copy of the former is available from Gwynedd archives.  I may be buying it in a month or so and if you have not found out anything then perhaps you would send me an email to remind me to look.

best wishes

Peter

 

[chinakay]

Hi all, you have given me much to think about!

I have ordered a copy of the Rowlands' Welsh Family History, which should be here soon...hopefully that will be helpful as well. Luckily I do know a bit about the patronymic naming system already.

So...
1. There is a possible set of parents in the 1841: Ellis and Judith Holland are alive and well. Their children seem to be: Hugh Ellis 1807, Hugh Ellis 1808, Robert Ellis 1811 and William Holland 1817. These are from the IGI batch #C090331, searched with Ellis as father's first name and Judith as mother's first name, no family name used. Then according to the census, there was also an Ellis 1823 and John 1826, and a granddaughter Judeth 1835.

2. Siblings of the other Roberts:
Ellis Roberts & Elin/Ellin/Elinor/Eleanor: seem to be Margaret 1797, Elin 1802, Gainor 1805, Jane 1808, Robert 1811 and Elizabeth 1814.
Ellis Williams & Margaret: Ann 1805, Owen 1808, Robert 1811, William 1813, Anne 1819, Ellis 1820, and Margaret 1831 (the afterthought )

3. Robert and Ann married about 1833, alas. There are two Robert Ellis/Ann marriages in the IGI, one in Llandegai and one in Penmachno, but both couples are still in place by the 1841 so it isn't either of them.
Robert and Ann named their children: Ellin/Elinor 1834, Judeth 1838, Ann 1841, Robert 1847, William 1850 and John 1854.

4. Robert and Ann lived at Pentre in 1841 and Fedw from 1851 to 1881. I'm assuming both names refer to the same place, Pentre-Tafarn-y-Fedw, a farm near Bettws-y-Coed.

5. Interestingly, Ann lived as a widow at Penrallt in 1891. I have a photo of her grandson's wife's mother, who also lived at Penrallt. There is a picture of this ancient Welsh lady at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,236415.0.html
Some of the restores are amazing.

6. Anybody know if there is a naming tradition in old Welsh custom similar to the Scottish one, like the first daughter being named after the mother's mother or something like that? Cause it sure would come in handy...

Thanks for all your suggestions, I'll chew on them a bit.

Cheers,
China

[cymraes2010]

Hi

Are you still interested in Robert Ellis, born 1811 at Dolwyddelan?
I believe that I have him in my family tree.

Hope to hear from you soon

cymraes

[chinakay]

Well...this slipped through the cracks  Hello cymraes, and a very belated welcome to Rootschat...sorry, but I didn't see your post.

I now believe Robert Ellis' father was Ellis Holland. Robert is listed as Robert Holland at FindMyPast.

If you make 2 more posts, you can send me a PM and we will talk about Ellises

Cheers,
China