Author Topic: Clazie from France?  (Read 18638 times)

Offline hdw

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Re: Clazie from France?
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 28 August 12 18:38 BST (UK) »
There's a tendency to class any French immigrants found in Britain a few hundred years ago as Huguenots, but I suppose individuals could have come here at different times for different reasons. I had Ulster Protestant ancestors called Petticrew in the Belfast area, and you can find that surname in articles about Huguenots in Ireland, but in fact the name appears in Scotland as early as 1296, and although it is certainly of French origin, it probably came here at or shortly after the Norman Conquest. The Petticrews in Lanarkshire seem to have had close links with the Hamilton family, who were Anglo-Norman.

A little while ago I was researching Stewart ancestors in Kelso, and I worked out that I was probably descended from a Robert Stewart and Nanc [sic] Companion who were married there in 1609. Companion??? It was a very rare name in Scotland to judge from Scotlandspeople, and died out here a long time ago, but it seems to be an anglicised version of French Compagnon, which is still current in France, while both Compagnon and Companion are found in French-speaking Canada.

So I believe that Nanc (Nancy? Agnes?) Companion was of French descent, but I don't feel there is enough evidence to assert that she was one of the French Protestant refugees that we refer to as Huguenots.

As a famous Scottish football manager once said in response to a question, "Mebbe aye, mebbe no!"

Harry

Offline heiserca

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Re: Clazie from France?
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 29 August 12 03:23 BST (UK) »
Well, evading the question isn’t the same as finding the answer. 

Before modern times, Clazie existed in but two places: the Languedoc-Rousillon region of France, and Berwickshire.  What explains its presence in both places, nearly 400 years ago?

Paulin is another example: a French name found in Scotland.  In 1777, John Claise / Clazie / Clezy & Margaret Palen / Paline / Paulin, wed at Hutton.  When did the Paulin name first appear in Berwickshire?  How did it got there?
 
Clezie (Clazie, Clezy, Clazy, Clazey, Claise, etc.), Lockhart, Heiser, Schwab, Tomon, Zarnowski, Megert, Iseli

Offline hdw

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Re: Clazie from France?
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 29 August 12 09:39 BST (UK) »
It's fascinating to speculate about these things, but in the absence of documentary evidence as to the reason for them being here, your speculation will remain just that.

A lot of books and articles have been written about Scots in Europe, but the movement wasn't all one way of course, and many Europeans moved to Scotland. To judge from the evidence of the later period, 18th-19th century onwards, I would say that anyone moving to the UK from continental Europe must have had some kind of skill to offer. I don't see an illiterate farm labourer moving here. Were your Clazie ancestors labourers or did they have a trade? The 18th century Register of Aliens in Edinburgh mentions a parfumier/hairdresser called Pierre Lecadit. Unbelievably, he actually became the ancestor of some fishing families in my native East Neuk of Fife after the marriage of his daughter Elisabeth to a David Muir of Cellardyke.

A bit later still, a fishing family called Montador moved to Cellardyke from Boulogne, followed a bit later by some relatives from Boulogne called Gen. I knew some of the Gen family's descendants when I was growing up and I have a relative married into the Montadors, who these days are in the fish merchant business. A descendant of the Montadors in Australia has traced their births, marriages and deaths in Revolutionary France, including marriages with the Gens. In the 1841 census of Kilrenny parish in East Fife, a number of French fishing boats are enumerated in a local harbour, and one of the Montadors is lodging in a house in Anstruther.

It's so much easier to research French ancestors at this late stage in time, but you are unlikely to find the reason for your ancestors being here in the 1600s, just as I will never know what brought Nanc Companion to Kelso of all places. What I have noticed about the few Companions in 17th c. Scotland is that they tend to be in the seaports.

Incidentally, I said I was descended from a Robert Stewart and Nanc Companion. I meant James Stewart. I recently wrote an article about my Stewarts in Kelso for the journal of the Borders Family History Society.

Harry


Offline richarde1979

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Re: Clazie from France?
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 29 August 12 12:55 BST (UK) »
Hello Heiserca

I didn't realise there was an actual source in England positively linking the name with the Huguenots. That said do you have any further information. It's possible that this may be a misunderstanding as the only 'Foreign Protestant' Church in Colchester I'm aware of was actually a Dutch church not a French Church. It's records have been published by the Huguenot Society of GB & Ireland:

Quarto Series XII Register of the Dutch Church, Colchester [1645-1728]

Obviously this may have led to a mis-identification of anyone contained in those records as Huguenot. In fact very few 'Huguenots' in the true sense of the word, came to England before the late 1670's, bar a relatively small number during the French Religious Wars 1562-98, many of whom in all likelyhood eventually returned to France anyway, and an even smaller number after the fall of La Rochelle in the 1620's. It seems unlikely either wave would have contained a great deal if any Languedoc refugees.

The vast majority of the Foreign Protestants who came to England before that point were from the Netherlands, French speaking Walloons and Flemish speaking Dutch, escaping the persecutions of the Spanish. At first they shared the same places of worship in England but very soon these split into seperate Dutch and French congregations, and the Colchester one was very much Dutch. The Huguenot society nevertheless encompasses these in the wider scope of it's research as together with actual Huguenots from France, all three built the early foundations of the later community.

It certainly is interesting that the two spellings appear in two such far flung seperate places, at a similar time period, though of course the spelling of surnames being as fluid then as they were, I think this could more likely be explained by a simple coincidence, then perhaps might be the case today. Certainly refugees did come from the South of France to the British Isles, but relatively few, and usually at a later date. In comparison to their brethren in the north they tend to have left a much firmer paper trail too, as the circumstances to bring about such a move, tended to be far more extraordinary.


Regards

Richard

Thank you, richarde.  How then to explain this seemingly French name in Berwick and Berwickshire? 

Records at Colchester, Essex showed families with surnames Claise, Clayse, Clayce as early as 1564, and clearly identified those families as "French Protestants".

Baptisms at Berwick-upon-Tweed showed surnames Clasie and Clasey, starting in 1666, with no indication of where the names came from, whether native or otherwise.

The Clazie spelling has been found in two separate spots, and not elsewhere: 1656 at Bram, in southern France, and 1665 at Hutton, Berwickshire.  The name is unusual and seems unlikely to have arisen spontaneously in two separate spots.  How might they be connected?


Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London


Offline heiserca

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Re: Clazie from France?
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 09 September 12 01:30 BST (UK) »
A second early example of the Clazie name on the Continent:

Jean Clazie married Jeane Louise Gonzal, on 1 May 1723, at Burgerlijke Administracie, Leuwarden, Friesland, Netherlands.

I recall from a university history course, the Huguenots were quite strong in parts of France.  When they were driven out, they went where they could, to more hospitable countries, Switzerland, some to England, a smaller number to Scotland. Many took refuge in the Netherlands.

Now these two isolated records, the Clazie name in southern France, 1656, and in the northern part of the Netherlands, 1723.  Coincidence?  The first known records of the name in the UK were at Hutton, Berwickshire, 1665, and Berwick-upon-Tweed, 1666.



Clezie (Clazie, Clezy, Clazy, Clazey, Claise, etc.), Lockhart, Heiser, Schwab, Tomon, Zarnowski, Megert, Iseli

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Clazie from France?
« Reply #14 on: Monday 10 September 12 09:26 BST (UK) »
That does match with the earlier records of Dutch fishermen by a similar name coming from Netherlands. I'm more inclined to think the Clazie spelling arose as an independant variation amongst the Dutch of Clase/Claze and they bought it to England via the fishing ports.

The Netherlands was the premier port of refuge for Huguenots, of the north of France at least, as it was a state that supported religious freedoms fully, a rarity in 17th century Europe, and the principle Statdholder William of Orange was the main enemy of Louis XIV, and like the Huguenots of France a Calvinist. In fact on his fathers side he was the great great grandson of Gaspard De Coligny, the leader of the Huguenots during France's religious wars, assasinated during the Massacre of St Bartholomews Eve, and on his mothers side he was great grandson of King Henry IV of France, 'Henry the Huguenot' the only Huguenot King to ever rule France. You can see then why the Huguenot's had a strong loyalty to William. About 100,000 Huguenots in total fled to the Netherlands, though many moved on to England after William's death. However they tended to be concentrated around Amsterdam, Haarlem and Leide where existing French speaking Churches the 'Waals Kerks' were located, having been set up by the Walloons who had fled the southern part of the Netherlands after the northern part succesfully asserted it's indepependance from the Kings of Spain in the first half of the 17th century. You would not generally  expect to find many Huguenots located in Friesland.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline hdw

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Re: Clazie from France?
« Reply #15 on: Monday 10 September 12 09:54 BST (UK) »
Many Huguenots also fled to Protestant Prussia. I believe the great German novelist Theodor Fontane was descended from Huguenots called Fontaine.

I'm not sure whether or not the German politician Oskar Lafontaine has a similar background. He is a native of the Saarland which of course has changed hands between France and Germany several times.

Harry


Offline richarde1979

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Re: Clazie from France?
« Reply #16 on: Monday 10 September 12 10:07 BST (UK) »
Hi Harry

That's absolutely correct. Frederick William of Prussia was one of the few leaders canny enough to realise these refugees represented the economic elite of French society, and he actively tried to entice them into his realm, with a fair degree of success. In fact one particular Huguenot family was instrumental in the collapse of the French economy in 1721 and most of the millions that went missing at that time ended up in Prussia! Frederick the Great's tutor was a Huguenot.

Regards

Richard
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline heiserca

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Re: Clazie from France?
« Reply #17 on: Monday 10 September 12 14:38 BST (UK) »
This topic becomes more obscure because these names in Europe are at a time before surnames were universal.  By 1400 almost everyone in England and Scotland had a surname.  But surnames were optional in the Netherlands until 1811.  Some people there had surnames, while others used the patronymic system: the father's forename was added after one's own.  Clazie was a Dutch personal name.  If a man was William, and his father was Clazie, the son was called William Clazie.  A Dutch fisherman who relocated to England or Scotland, might find his patronymc Clazie henceforth used as a surname, passed to later generations.
Clezie (Clazie, Clezy, Clazy, Clazey, Claise, etc.), Lockhart, Heiser, Schwab, Tomon, Zarnowski, Megert, Iseli