Cornish Mystery

[deb usa]

hi Valda
I have just been on the Jon Rose website re: Thomas Emidy.... Blimey...
i am still confused...is margery Carnarton then actually Mary Carnarton who had Amelia carnarton...who was illigitimate (father on her marriage cert being UNCLE charles...Mary/Margery's brother).... I will have to read all the info again.....
please forgive my confusion...there is so much info to digest.thanks once again for all your hard work.
deb

[Valda]

Part 1
It hinges on whether Amelia Knorrton who married George Slack in 1842 was really an Amelia Carnarton. The only evidence of the existence of such a woman is the 1841 census when an Amelia Carnarton of the right age was living with an older woman called Mary (can't see the original census image only the transcript) in the right street in Kenwyn.

What you have at this point re the Carnarton family is

Charles senior married Margery and had at least 6 children in Helston between 1793-1809. Charles and Margery would be a little old to have another child called Amelia in 1817.
Their known children are

Elizabeth
Margery who married in Kenwyn in 1827 to Thomas Emidy
Charity
Charles who I think married Mary Duff in 1823 probably also in Kenwyn (he would be on the young side to be the father of an Amelia born circa 1817 and anyway if she was illegitimate with Charles as her father, she would be unlikely to have the Carnarton surname)
Christian
Ann

On the 1851 census in Kenwyn there is also a Benjamin Carnarton aged 47, a coal porter living in Charles Street with his family (they can be found on the 1841 census transcript) born Helston. I can't see his baptism on the IGI. If I can't see his baptism in Helston then perhaps I also can't find a Mary Carnarton's baptism either. What we do know is a Mary Carnarton was removed in 1817 from Kenwyn to Falmouth (crucial year 1817 so this is an interesting coincidence). You remove single young women from one parish to another usually only if they are pregnant. Single young women are ususally capable of earning their own living but at the moment they fall heavily pregnant with no father to support the oncoming baby they become a charge on the local ratepayers. Where the baby is born means it can claim the right of residency and so the ratepayers of that parish must pay for that baby's upkeep. Consequently if the pregnant mother did not have right of residency in the parish you moved her on as quickly as you could. This would be the main reason for a removal order being issued. Mary Carnarton was removed from Kenwyn back to the parish of Falmouth where one might expect her to have given birth if that was the reason for the removal. On the 1851 and 1861 censuses Amelia Slack/Smith gives her birthplace as Falmouth (later censuses Truro and Kenwyn, places she may later have lived after her birth - certainly Kenwyn).

In 1841 you have an Amelia Carnarton with a Mary Carnarton. Depending on the quality of the 1841 census image it is possible she was Amelia's grandmother Margery Carnarton. The census image itself may say Mary or it could say something like 'Marjry' which has been transcribed as Mary. Or the enumerator could simply have got the name wrong.

1851 census HO107 1910 folio 218
Goodwives? Lane Truro St Mary  Cornwall  
Sarah Sibbey 61 Goodwives Lane, Cornwall,  Head Unmarried Shoemaker
Fanny Aliners? 31  Goodwives Lane, Cornwall,  Niece  Dressmaker
Margery Carnerton 86  Helstone, Cornwall,  Aunt  Widow Pauper
Margery Ashborn 12 Truro, Cornwall, Granddaughter  
Susan Dennett 64  St Clement, Cornwall, Lodger  Widow Servant

from FreeBMD
Deaths Mar 1855
CARNARTON  Majory    Truro  5c 155

This would help explain the lack of a Mary Carnarton death registration before 1851 and/or a Mary Carnarton on the 1851 census who could by her age be Amelia Carnarton's grandmother.
Amelia would then either be the daughter of Mary Carnarton of the removal order but no baptism, or possibly Margery who we do have a baptism for but may be wrongly identified in the removal order as Mary. Or the removal order is a red herring and Amelia is the daughter of any of Margery senior's older daughters (but with an 1817 birth not one of her sons - I just cannot find a legitimate hypothesis that fits the known facts).

Regards

Valda

[Valda]

Part 2
On the otherhand I could knock this Carnarton edifice straight down since the only evidence rests with the 1841 census. If the age for Amelia is wrong on that census or has been transcribed wrongly then you have one Amelia Carnarton (and there only is one Amelia Carnarton - who knows whether Mary Carnarton even had a child and what gender and what name is was if she did). The Amelia Carnarton of the 1841 census could then become the younger Amelia daughter of Charles and Mary nee Duff (maybe) living with her grandmother (who was Margery) and that this Amelia died in 1842. End of story re Amelia Carnarton and back to square one re Amelia Knorrton who may very well be the legitimate daughter of Charles somebody or other who was a tanner.

I need JAP to look at this for me and follow the reasoning because it is complicated hence no reason to apoligise - it is a lot to work through.

If at the end of this we still have a possible working hypothesis which fits all the known but limited facts - that an Amelia Carnarton married a George Slack and she was the Amelia of the 1841 census then there are certain records at Cornwall's record office that will need to be checked or searched for. They may prove that an Amelia Carnarton did not marry George Slack - therefore money spent on a dead end, or they may prove there was such a woman and therefore highly likely she was the woman who married George Slack. It will be your decision.

In the meantime we all need to digest while we wait for JAP's incisive mind to tear through the pros and cons of the hypothesis.

Meanwhile even if nothing comes of it we all got to discover a 'lost Cornish' musician which was really very interesting.

Regards

Valda

[deb usa]

Valda
Thank you so much for putting everything into more perspective for me..... it is a lot of info and as you say we are just working on an assumption that Amelia Knortton/Slack/Smith is Amelia Carnarton, and as you so wisely put in one of your previous posting, assuming anything in genealogy is dangerous.!!
I eagerly await  JAP's reply.
thank you once again for you time and effort.
Deb

[krisesjoint]

Hi Everybody, What great work has gone on here.  I too like Carnarton for Knortton. Does sound likely. I don't have much to add except to say we do have very good indexing for the 1841 Census. I have been right through all the C's, K's, and N's and can find no other option for Amelia other than the one provided. The image is very clear. It's definitely Mary I am afraid Valda. The only Carnarton's are in Kenwyn with Head's Mary and family and Benjamin and family. Funnily enough on the opposite page to Amelia in Calenick Street is the only other Amelia of the right age with a name slightly similar (Well it starts with a C). Amelia Courlies 25 Grocer and presumingly her parents would you believe Charles 65 Ind and Mary 65. Think the name is too far off to be relevent and being a Grocer surely she would be able to write but I did look twice.

This death in 1842 is still a major concern. (Another thing I must mention here is that the Death is not Covered by the NBI. Coverage of most parishes ends in 1837 unfortunately and Kenwyn, Falmouth and Truro all do end there I am afraid.) There just doesn't appear to be another Amelia to fit the bill anywhere in Cornwall. Hope Daisy May spots this thread and can find something in all her parish records. There is an OPC for Kenwyn http://www.cornwall-opc.org/PAR/H-K/Kenwyn.htm who may be able to help, no OPC for Falmouth.....Good Luck Deb. Hope you solve it....Kris   

[deb usa]

hi krises
 thanks so much for your imput...i too noted the courties/courlies on the cornwll online census of 1841 and i did to assume(!!!!!!) that the amelia courties , being a grocer , would have more of an education than amelia Carnarton who was a labourer.

this has stumped me ...as there is NO definite way to prove that Amelia Knortton(on marriage cert) is either one of them.I am just going on how the cornish accent would sound and am therefore presuming that Carnarton works best with Knortton..... Blimey...I was thinking that tracing through the female line would be easier..... and now it seems that i have uncovered a major mystery........ it all started with mary palmer  nee smith....LOL

i really have no idea how this will end or how anything can be proved...i am in the USA so i am just relying on the census and whatever certs i can get hold of.

i REALLY appreciate everyones interest...... what a lark...as my dad would say LOL
thanks all
regards Deb

[JAP]

Well Kris and Deb, I've been battling away looking at all the people called Amelia on the Cornwall 1841 - with no convincing 'KNORRTON' lookalike that I could find.  Nor any candidate for a second Amelia aged ca 16 (daughter of Charles CARNARTON and Mary (DUFF), bap 1824 as COUNACKAN, and aged 3 in the 1828 CSQ order).

However, what I have found is a Mary in the Helston family.
Mary CARNARTHON, bap 10 Jul 1791, parents Charles CARNARTHON and Margaret (surely Margaret is the same as Margery/Margerry of the other six children).

At least this provides a Mary for the 1817 CSQ order for what that's worth.

But why were they sending her to Falmouth rather than Helston?  Oh well, perhaps she had grown up in Falmouth.  Or perhaps that's why Falmouth appealed against the order?

I guess the 1842 death cert for Amelia would be interesting - but perhaps not as it surely will turn out to be Amelia CARNARTON b ca 1824 (the 3 yo Amelia on the 1828 CSQ order).  But where oh where is that Amelia in the 1841 unless she's the one we've found, and the age of 24 is incorrect ...

If I find anything else, I'll post again.

JAP

[JAP]

Well, sad to say, I haven't found anything else.

KRIS
Kris, did you look for a possibility in the 1841 for the Amelia born ca 1824 hiding under some similar(?) name?

There's one oddity in the 1841 on FreeCEN - Amelia COTTENMOTH (name doubtful), age 15, a Pupil, birthplace unknown.  This is HO 107/154/1/5/2.  The 'next household' is a continuation of this page and changes halfway down to Page 5/3 - and every one of the people in this 'household' is a pauper ...  I can't find the name COTTENMOTH anywhere else - IGI, Google, Ancestry.  But this is in Launceston St Mary - a long way from Kenwyn ...

THE FAMILY FROM HELSTON
As I said above, I found a Mary bap 1791 as CARNARTHON.

I can't find a Benjamin to fit (waterman in 1841, coal porter in 1851).  Though his birthdate (from 1851 census age) of ca 1804 fits nicely into a baptismal gap at that time - Mary 1791, Elizabeth 1793, Margery 1796, Charity 1798, Charles 1800, room for Benjamin!, Christian 1807, Ann 1809.

Incidentally, I can't find baptisms for Benjamin's children Mary and Peter (14 and 10 resp in the 1841) but the others (John 9, Richard 7, and Elizabeth 5) are in the IGI - John was bap 5 Oct 1834 as CARNAITON; Richard bap same day and surname as John; Eliza Ann bap 11 Apr 1841 as CARNARTON.
Sort of interesting that, in 1851, Peter C CARNARTON, 20, b Helston Cornwall, is a student at Terrace House Training Establishment for Schoolmasters in Battersea, London.

TRURO UNION
According to Genuki, both Truro St Mary's parish and Kenwyn parish were part of the Truro Union for Poor Law administration and parish relief.  But why Truro Union would be mentioned on the marriage cert I don't know.

EMIDY
And I certainly love Joseph EMIDY!

CORNWALL QUARTER SESSIONS
Those Cornwall Quarter Session records are amazing.  I've not come across them before (I know nothing about research in Cornwall) so I was most impressed.
There are also hits for CANARTHEN, CANNARTHEN, and CARNATHEN (the latter mainly the place) but they are not relevant.

AMELIA bap 1824
Valda, all your incredible work certainly has pinned down Amelia CARNARTON baptized (as COUNACKAN) in 1824, daughter of Charles and Mary.

Assuming that the baptism was not long after the birth and given the names of her parents, this Amelia of course fits with Amelia CARNARTON aged 3 in the 1828 (appeal against the) order against Mary, wife of Charles CARNARTON and their children Elizabeth 4, Amelia 3, Charles 1 3/4, and unbaptized son.

Incidentally, there is in the IGI the baptism of an Elizabeth DUFF, mother Mary DUFF, no father named, bap 13 Oct 1822, Kenwyn.  Spot on for the pre-nuptial female child born Aug 1822 according to the 1822 order; but too early for Elizabeth 4 in 1828 (4 an error?).

That the order was against Constantine explains, of course, those 3 baptisms in Constantine in 1833 of children (William, Mary and Thomas) of Charles CARNARTON and Mary.  William (13 in 1841) presumably the 'unbaptized son' of the 1828 order.

1842 DEATH CERT
This seems to be important - though a costly piece of information.

If this Amelia is ca 25, it pretty much drives a coach and horses through the hypothesis that Amelia CARNARTON, 24 in 1841, is Amelia who married George SLACK.
(And we could perhaps assume that the younger Amelia had died pre-1837)

On the other hand, if this Amelia is ca 17/18, we still have the twin problems of (a) might the 24 in the 1841 census have been an error and, if not, (b) where was this younger Amelia in the 1841.
(Assuming that Amelia COTTENMOTH is not a goer!!)

Intractable?

MARGERY
I like the idea of 86 yo Margery of 1851 and subsequent death being 70yo Mary of 1841.  But how to prove?

VARIANT SPELLINGS
Just for interest, the IGI combines the following spellings (e&oe - and there may well be others):
*CARNARTON and CARNARTEN
*CANARTHEN, CANARTHAN, CANNARTHEN, CANNARTHIN, CANARTON, CANARTAN, CANERTHEN, CANARTHON and CANHERTIN (the last from Durham - probably not 'our' name)
*CARNARTHEN, CARNARTHAN, CORNARTHEN, CARNARTEON, CARNATHON, CARNITHEN, KARNATHAN and two which surely don't belong (CARNETON, Hereford and CARNITON, Worcester)
And not combined are:
*CARNAITON
*CARNARTHON   

Cheers,

JAP

[Valda]

I cannot find Courlies as a surname on the 1851 census. I have found an Amelia (transcribed as) Cartis (looks Curtis to me) in Kenwyn in 1851 with mother Mary. Amelia was aged 37 born Mullion. On the 1861 census I can find the same woman, surname Courlis (bit more like it and this would appear to be a surname) in Truro. So I'm hoping I can throw this Amelia out of the pot?

Cottonmoth looks interesting JAP as a no goer of a surname. Nothing like it in Cornwall on the 1851 census. Whatever it is it isn't Cottonmoth, but as you say she is a long way away and I would doubt Amelia would be a pupil - a servant working away from home more likely but less likely a pupil?

Brilliant find for the Mary CARNARTHON so we now have a Mary at least.

If we could close down the Amelia Carnarton death in 1842 we could open up on what happened to Mary Carnarton in Falmouth in 1817. People after all do get left off censuses so it is a possibility the second Amelia was alive in 1841. She is not on the national burial index and hasn't appeared for Truro registration district from 1837-1851 on FreeBMD unless she is Amelia who died in 1842.
I'm presuming the 1841 census clearly says 24 for the Amelia's age on the census and not 14?

So unless anyone else can nail down the 1842 Amelia's age on death or has any other suggestions re surnames for Knorrton my feeling would be that any next step would be to explore the 1817 removal order for Mary. What does every one else think? That can be done relatively cheaply since we know the exact references to the two records in the quarter sessions, so if Debs is willing it is a request to Cornwall Record Office for photocopies (unless someone is popping in to the record office - not something JAP and I can physically do unfortunately) with a follow up request on whether there is a 'Bastardy order' concerning Mary Carnarton in the Falmouth area (or any area, if she skips Falmouth) - shame there is nothing in the quarter sessions, so this might just be a 'fornlorn hope' and of course the removal orders may not give further details than we already have from the index - everything is a risk when you are searching further.

Regards

Valda