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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: wildcats13 on Wednesday 13 October 10 05:49 BST (UK)
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I am in Australia looking for family details of Maude Van-Okker.
According to Freebdm, she married William Sibley, (my wife's 1st cousin twice removed), in 15 December 1909, in West Ham District. aged 25 and born in Camberwell SW, William was 35, born on 23 February 1875.
According to the Marriage Certificate, her father was Charles Van-Okker (deceased) who was a Jeweller, and her address given was 11 Chobham Road, Stratford. William lived at 22 Hamfrith Road Stratford, and was a wine & spirits ganger & valuer.
In 1919, William started divorce proceedings against Maude, and in September 1921, she married Charles Summers Harvard, the Co-respondent.
I am seeking any information about Maude and her parents and other ancestors, and whether she had any children with William. I have tried without success, so i hope someone can assist.
Regards,
Peter
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Could only find this -
UK Incoming Passenger List
Maud Van Okker age 28
Port of Departure: New York, United States
Arrival Date: 6 Oct 1907
Port of Arrival: Southampton, England
Ship Name: St Paul
Sue
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Possible hit?!
Alice Maud Ocker, born June quarter 1880, Marylebone. Vol. 1a, page 553.
Dutch names (or Flemish!) call the "van" and/or "van der" and similar, prefixes and ignore these prefixes when indexing/sorting surnames.
Therefore I would expect to find Maud under "O" for Okker, rather than "V" for Van Okker.
Of course, I may be talking a load of tosh!!
Kevin
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In 1911 William (36) and Maud (27) Sibley are living in West Ham, Essex. I don't have access to the details.
Richard
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I do - very interesting reading!
EDITED FOR CONTENT: Details from the 1911 census are not allowed due to the terms & conditions of the Find My Past website
On another point. If Maud's parents were not British, they may not have registerd the birth with the Registrar's office, but with their own Embassy or Consulate?
Searched FreeBMD for any Maud born in Camberwell between 1880 and 1885 - no Okker, Ocker, van Okker or anything similar.
Closest match is Maud Beatrice Crocker, September 1885.
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Searched FreeBMD for any Maud born in Camberwell between 1880 and 1885 - no Okker, Ocker, van Okker or anything similar.
Closest match is Maud Beatrice Crocker, September 1885.
Not the Maud your looking for.
Maud Beatrice Crockers parents were Samuel Richard Crocker & Charlotte Harriett Crocker.
Sue
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I am seeking any information about Maude and her parents and other ancestors, and whether she had any children with William. I have tried without success, so i hope someone can assist.
Birth
Sep 1915 West Ham
Iris G Sibley (mother's maiden name Van Okker)
This may (or may not) be the Iris Greta Joy Sibley who married an American in 1945 and then lived in Essex until recently (lots of references to her husband on Google, but he was alive in 2005 so I haven't named him).
Richard
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13 Oct 1901, Paddington
Charles Benjamin Marcus Okker, 31, cab proprietor s Charles Okker (decd), diamond merchant
m Edith Annie Kirby, 26
1891 RG12/71/7 St George's Hanover Square
Charles B M Okker, 20, journeyman butcher, b Bonchurch, Isle of Wight
1881 RG11/541
Charles Okker, 45, French polisher, b Holland
Emily Okker, 34, b Ventnor, Isle of Wight
Emma O, 13, b Ryde, IoW
Charles O, 12, b Balham, Surrey
Adolphus O, 10, b Balham, Surrey
Rachael O, 6, b Walworth, Surrey
Samuel O, 5, b Walworth, Surrey
Isaac O, 3, b Walworth, Surrey
Grace O, 1, b Camberwell, Surrey
The youngest four + Annie were baptised at Upper Tooting, Wandsworth on 2 Aug 1885 as chiuldren of Charles (decd) and Emily Okker
Burial at Tooting: 26 Mar 1885 Charles Okker aged 48
1871 RG10/718
Charles Okkers, 34, railway porter, b Amsterdam, Holland, British Subject
Emily O, 23, b Ventnor, IoW
Minnie O, 3, b Ventnor, IoW
Charles O, 1, b Steatham, Surrey
Richard
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Hi
I see as I posted Richard has also spotted this family - I'll post what I've followed independently
Is the information Maude gives on her first marriage the same as she gives on her second?
Marriages Sep 1921
Havard Charles S Sibley W.Ham 4a 804
Havard Charles S Van Okker W.Ham 4a 804
Sibley Maude Havard W.Ham 4a 804
Van Okker Maude Havard W.Ham 4a 804
Do the divorce proccedings give any further information?
J 77/1426/3856 Divorce Court File: 3856. Appellant: William Sibley. Respondent: Maude Sibley. Co-respondent: Charles Summers Harvard. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [hd]. 1919
Maude died in 1951 in Essex. Her age on death was given as 69 which would put her year of birth as circa 1881/2.
A possible for Maude's family
Marriages Mar 1874
Dennis Emily St Saviour 1d 203
OKKER Charles St. Saviour 1d 203
1881 census RG11 541 folio
151 Grosvenor Park St Saviour Southwark
Charles Okker 45 Head Married Polisher (French) Holland
Emily Okker 34 Wife Married Ventnor Isle Of Wight
Emma Okker 13 Daughter Ryde Isle of Wight
Charles Okker 12 Son Balham Surrey
Adolphus Okker 10 Son Balham Surrey
Rachael Okker 6 Daughter Walworth Surrey
Samuel Okker 5 Son Walworth Surrey
Isaac Okker 3 Son Walworth Surrey
Grace Okker 1 Daughter Camberwell Surrey
plus 2 lodgers
Deaths Mar 1885
Okker Charles 48 Wandsworth 1d 462
Marriages Jun 1888
JOHNSON Benjamin Frederick Wandsworth 1d 976a
OKKER Emily Georgina Wandsworth 1d 976a
1891 census RG12 1369 folio 5
4 ?ford Terrace Ilford Essex
Benjamin F Johnson 34 Head Married Police constable metropolitan Chelsea Middlesex
Emily G Johnson 42 Wife Married Ventnor Isle of Wight
Isaac Okker 13 Step son Walworth London
Grace Okker 11 Step daughter Camberwell London
Annie Okker 9 Step daughter Camberwell London
1901 census RG13 1608 folio
43 Cowley Road Wanstead Essex
Benjamin Johnson 44 Head Married Police constable Chelsea London
Emily Johnson 53 Wife Married Ventnor Isle of Wight
Grace Okker 21 Stepdaughter Camberwell London
Births Mar 1882
O'Kker Annie St. Saviour 1d 141
some of the other Okker children's births were registered in St Saviour registration district
2nd August 1885 Upper Tooting Holy Trinity
Annie Okker parents Charles and Emily, Trinity Road, Upper Tooting, father's occupation deceased
also baptised at the same time were
Rachael, Samuel, Isaac and Grace.
1901 census RG13 506 folio 112
117 Rye Lane Camberwell, London
Maud Okkar 19 Draper's assistant Camberwell, London
This gives evidence that Maud Okkar is a strong candidate for Maude Van-Okker. More difficult to prove that Annie Okker became Maud Okker.
However Grace Okker's marriage may be helpful
Marriages Jun 1908
Okker Grace Van Fulham 1a 659
Regards
Valda
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This family appears on a number of public trees, one of which shows Charles Okker senior as Koopman Okker (with earlier generations).
R
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My apologies to everyone as I have only just noticed the messages you sent, I must have somehow missed the advice emails, as I have had some problems at that stage with my computer.
I have been trying to digest all the comments put foward and make the following observasions,
I don't think the Charles Okker (French Polisher) is the correct one, as William & Maud's marriage certificate stated her father was a jeweller, which fits in with the father of Charles Benjamin Marcus Okker, who was shown as Diamond Merchant.
Also Charles & Emily didn't marry until 1874, and Emma, Charles and Adolophus are all born before that date. Alternatively, he MAY be their father from a possible previous marriage.
According to the marriage certificate, Maud was 25 when she married William in 1909. I don't have Maud's second marriage certificate to check, however I believe she married a third time to a Arthur E Bradley in June Qtr, 1941, Hendon, Middlesex 3a 1874, and have just now found her death details as Maud Bradley in March Qtr, 1950, shown as 66 years, which confirms with her birth year of 1884.
I believe that Charles B M Okker, born Bonchurch, Isle of Wight, is from the same family as Maud, and it may be only a co-incidence that Emily Okker (nee Dennis) was also born in Isle of Wight. Also, Charles & Emily's son Charles is born in Balham, Surrey.
I have checked out the Iris Greta Joy Sibley mentioned and she is not the correct one, so I am still searching for the right one.
Sounds a bit of a muddle doesn't it. Look foward to your comments again.
Thamks once again.
Best Regards,
Peter
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Hi
Possible reason for 'Charles' and Emily's late marriage (or their in fact second marriage)
J 77/128/2570 Divorce Court File: 2570. Appellant: Mariana Van Okker. Respondent: Koopman Okker. Type: Wife's petition [wx]. 1872
Marriages Sep 1869
Dennes Emily Wandsworth 1d 721
OKKERS Charles Makes Wandsworth 1d 721
25th July 1869 St Leonard, Streatham
Charles Makes Okkers 32 Bachelor Railway Porter Streatham Makes Okkers (Deceased) Polisher Diamond
Emily Dennes 22 Spinster Streatham Benjamin Dennes Baker
Both signed
Witnesses William George junr and Mary Ann Curry
Marriages Mar 1874
Dennis Emily St Saviour 1d 203
Okker Charles St. Saviour 1d 203
Eldest child's birth registration
Births Jun 1867 Dennes Emma Minnie F I. Wight 2b 538
Charles Benjamin 'Marcus'
10th January 1872 St Mary Balham born 24th December 1869
Charles Benjamin Okkers parents Charles Makes and Emily Okkers, Trinity Street Balham, father's occupation Porter
baptised the same day
Henry Adolphus born 4th November 1871
Births Mar 1870 OAKKERS Charles Benjamin Wandsworth 1d 639
1871 census RG10 718? folio 48
1 Thurlow Terrace Dendy Street Streatham
Charles Okkers 34 Head Married Railway porter Amsterdam Holland British Subject
Emily Okkers 23 Wife Married Ventnor Hampshire
Minnie Okkers 3 Daughter Ventnor Hamsphire
Charles Okkers 1 Son Streatham Surrey
Sophia Dennis 17 Visitor House maid domestic Ventnor Hampshire
plus 1 lodger
1891 census RG12 71 folio 7
35 St Georges Place St George Hanover Square
Charles B M Okker 20 Servant Journeyman Butcher Bonchurch I of Wight
13th October 1901 St James, Paddington
Charles Benjamin Marcus Okker 31 Bachelor Cab proprietor 12 Susan Mews West Charles Okker (deceased) Diamond Merchant
Edith Annie Kirby 26 Spinster 12 Susan Mews West James Kirby Time Keeper
Both signed
Witnesses Lily Caroline Jarvis and John Johnson
29th Sep 1895 born 9th September Holy Redeemer Clerkenwell
Nora Elaine Burton Okker parents Charles B Marius Okker and Edith Okker, 40 Wilmington Square, father's occupation cab proprietor
Births Dec 1895 Okker Nora Elaine B Holborn 1b 687
1901 census RG13 199 folio 102
57 Roden Street Islington
James Kirby 50 Head Married Printer's Time Keeper Castle Rising Norfolk
Amelia Kirby 55 Wife Married Whitehaven Cumberland
Nora Okker 5 Granddaughter Clerkenwell London
Edith Okker 'married' was visiting in Tottenham on the 1901 census (census night 1901 was 31st March)
J 77/944/8659 Divorce Court File: 8659. Appellant: Charles Benjamin Marens Okker. Respondent: Edith Annie Okker. Co-respondent: Alfred Hyde. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [hd]. 1908
I can't find Charles Benjamin Marcus on the 1901 census but it might be worth looking for him on the 1911 census to confirm his birthplace. From a free search it looks to be in London.
http://www.1911census.co.uk/
Charles B M Okkers died in 1955 on the Isle of Wight aged 85.
The information on the tree states Koopman Okker was born 23rd September 1837 in Amsterdam the son of Marcus Isaac Okker 1790-1855. Koopman/Charles married Marianna VanDiepenheym in Amsterdam in 1858. He died 22nd March 1885 in Wandsworth Surrey County Asylum.
1861 census RG9 20 folio 63
5 Orington? Terrace Kensington
Koopman Okker 24 Head Married Diamond polisher Amsterdam
Marion Okker 23 Wife Married Netherlands
plus 1 servant and 2 boarders
possible son's death registration
Deaths Jun 1861 Okker Marcus Kensington 1a 75
Regards
Valda
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Iris Georgina married a Mr White, lived in Bristol I have her as Iris Georgina Harvard dau Annie Maud Okker and Charles Simmonds Harvard. She is my 1st cousin twice removed
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Hi jsnow
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Peter (wildcats) should receive email notifications that we have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
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Hi jsnow,
I am so pleased that you found my listing on Maude Van Okker, as I had nearly given up on finding any more information.
As you can see from the previous entries, there is some uncertainty as to whether William Sibley or Charles Simmons Havard is the father of Iris as she was born 1915 and Maude didn't marry Charles until September quarter of 1921, and in freebdm, there are two birth entries for Iris, one for Sibley & one for Havard. This could be possible if Charles had officially adopted Iris.
Only recently, I heard that a Reginald G T White had married a Havard in September quarter 1952 in Bristol, but at this stage I still have to follow that up. Hopefully this is the same one.
I am very interested to know how your connection came about, whether Iris had any brother's or sister's, and if she had any children herself, and if you have any certificates relating to her. I also found that Maude married again (3rd time) to Arthur E Bradley in June Qtr. 1941 in Hendon District, Middlesex and died in 1951 in Essex.
I am also still searching for the second wife of William Sibley, whose initials were listed as A M on his death certificate in 1935. They lived at 162 Goldhawk Road Hammersmith. I have found a few entries for William Sibley with the wife's initials with A M, but unless I purchase a lot of certificates, it is very difficult to search from Australia.
Anyway, I am glad you found me and I look fowrd to hearing from you again soon.
Regards,
Peter
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I have distant cousin who has visited Iris I think - will ask him what he knows
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tony says to email him directly on edited
Julia
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Hi Julia
In accordance with Rootschat policies, I've removed the email address. We only allow that format for business addresses.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php
You have enough posts now to send this information on the personal message (PM) system. To send a pm, click on the green scroll under members avatars and follow the instructions.
Dawn
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Hi all.
I have just come across this post and as I have Koopman (Charles) Okker in my tree I thought I'd add somethings as I know them. I have Koopman married in Amsterdam to Marianna Van Diepenhijm Oct 6 1858. This is probably where the Van comes into play with his wife's name? (Marianna van Diepenhijm = Maud van Okker)? Also he married a second time to Emily Georgeine Okker nee Dennes July 25 1869 in Wandsworth, London. She was born Ventnor, Isle of Wight, Feb 17 1848. I also have Koopman as a Diamond Cutter and dying in the County Lunatic Asylum Wandsworth (Springfield Hospital) March 22 1885. This is still to be confirmed, I have contacted The Surrey Historical Society for help with this and am awaiting their response. Any comments/corrections would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. p.s. am I allowed to add source citations to posts for confirmation purposes?
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The "van" is part of the surname, called a affix (or tussenvoegsel in Dutch/Flemish).
Tussenvoegsels are ignored when sorting - e.g. in a directory, phone book etc.
E.G. Vincent van Gogh; Rembrandt van Rijn; Frank de Boer, etc
Okker is a different surname to van Okker ;D
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussenvoegsel
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Thanks for your quick reply and useful info, good to share these things.
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I lived in The Netherlands for 16 years!
Some things entered my brain during that time! ;D ;D
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Wish I could understand Dutch, most of my family, on my grandmothers side, are from Amsterdam and Groningen areas. Very difficult translating some documents. I do have a translator program but a lot of the documents/scans I find are jpegs, or images and can't be translated automatically so I have to try to decipher the hand writing and go from there. Also the naming of people seems to change with each generation? A bit frustrating sometimes, but thats what this family history is all about eh?
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There are Dutch speakers on RC.
Try posting the documents, and see what people make of them.
You'll need a suitable Subject Title, in order to get people's attention.
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Now thats an avenue I have not thought about, thanks for the thought might give it a try? I wonder if there is enough people that need this kind of service for RC to have a seperate section for such a thing? I have had a reply from the Surrey Historical Society confiming the fact that Koopman Charles Okker did die in the County Lunatic asylum (Springfield Hospital) and I can acquire 2 pages of scans re his condition before admittance and his subsequent death, cost is 26 pounds or $47. A bit expensive I think.
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I think that is very reasonable ;D
I do private research - And I know I am cheap at £20 per hour!
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I do understand about the cost of things and really appreciate when peoples skills, time and expertise are involved, and knowing the time that is spent on research I think you are very reasonable.