Author Topic: Hay Family Dead End  (Read 23810 times)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 13 October 12 10:05 BST (UK) »
Interesting, but not surprising. (I had already checked with the Local Studies staff and LIBINDX). Let's hope they can manage to dig something up for you.

Orlage is not on any of the online maps at http://maps.nls.uk/index.html. The Moll and Roy ones from the 1740s and 1750s show a lot of places that no longer exist, or are no longer known by the names then recorded, and there are also quite a few places shown but not labelled with a name. The Thomson one of 1832 looks much the same as the modern maps.

So I think it will have to be the estate records.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline kb0fhp

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #19 on: Monday 05 November 12 19:07 GMT (UK) »
I know.  The place description doesnt exist.  Maybe the person started writing orlage in .... and started writing the other people.  That is the only rational thing I can think of - unless Orlage is the location of the town clock and lived near there - I really have no clue and how to proceed....

kb0fhp, I think you are beginning to clutch at straws. There isn't a town in Bellie - only the village of Fochabers, and even that did not exist in 1760; it was only founded in 1776. There are two kirks with clocks; one built in 1798 and the other after 1843. If you lived in a rural area in the 1760s you didn't need a clock to tell you exactly what time it was.

GR2's explanation is the rational one.

The only way I can think of to pursue this is to look for estate papers. I see from the online catalogue of the Scottish Archive Network http://www.scan.org.uk/catalogue/ that the papers of the Gordon Family, Dukes of Gordon (Gordon Castle Muniments) are held in the National Records of Scotland under reference GD234 and GD244. It also says, "Further material relative to the Gordon Castle estates is available among the Crown Estate papers, also held in the National Archives of Scotland: CR6 - Glenbucket Estate Office records, 1770-1883 and CR8 - Fochabers Estate Office records, 1490-1951. Both contain rentals, ledgers, letter books, cash books, etc."

Just as a matter of interest, you said at the outset,
Quote
I have been trying to gather the ancestors of William Hay born 1787 in Duffus.  I gathered his baptism record and death record and was able to determine that the parents were James Hay b 06 March 1760 and Elspet Forsyth b 1760.
I'd be very interested to know what evidence you have to prove that the James Hay baptised in Bellie on 6 March 1760 and the James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth are one and the same?

How is the best way to determine that the James Hay that married Elspet Forsyth is the one baptized 06 March 1760?  As I indicated, I am a raw amateur at this.

Offline GR2

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #20 on: Monday 05 November 12 20:08 GMT (UK) »
One thing you can do is find all the records of James and Elspet's children being baptised. The witnesses may point in a particular direction. If you are lucky, there may be a name or relationship given which helps make the link.

Offline kb0fhp

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #21 on: Monday 05 November 12 20:14 GMT (UK) »
Thank you - that is a good idea.  I never would have thought of that.  Luckily I have the record of them, but not the certificates.


Offline Forfarian

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #22 on: Monday 05 November 12 20:39 GMT (UK) »
How is the best way to determine that the James Hay that married Elspet Forsyth is the one baptized 06 March 1760?  As I indicated, I am a raw amateur at this.

I think you are perhaps starting with the wrong question. You need to ask, "How can I find out who were the parents of James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth?"

You have to bear in mind that there may not in fact be any surviving record of James Hay's baptism. You must not assume that just because there is one born about the right time in the same county, he has to be yours.

First of all, consider the names of their children, in order, because this might give you a clue to their parents' names. I think you have already done this. The children listed on FamilySearch are
Elspat, 1785, Duffus
William, 1787, Duffus
George, 1798, Duffus
Alexander, 1811, Elgin
Unfortunately there are huge gaps; 11 years between William and George, and 13 years between George and Alexander.  There is no way of knowing whether these are genuine gaps, or whether there were other children whose baptism records have not survived, or who died before they were baptised. So other than suggesting that James Hay's father might have been a William, this approach isn't going to work.

Have you got all four of the full baptism records? If not, you need to get them. They may contain some sort of clue - a witness named Hay with where (s)he lived, for example. The best thing would be to go to somewhere where you can rent a copy of the microfilm of the Duffus parish register and read through it looking for Hays who are listed as witnesses to baptisms, noting their names, the dates, where they resided and who else were the co-witnesses. If you are lucky, you may be able to build up a picture of where the Hays resided, and who their friends and neighbours were.

Go to LIBINDX and just put in the surname Hay and then in turn look up the ones born, married or died in Duffus. If any of them died after 1855, get their death certificates and seen what that adds to the collection of information. You might get lucky and find a death registered by a first or second cousin that might give a clue. There is, for instance, a Jane Hay, wife of Robert Gray, who was born in Duffus and died in Elgin in 1879 aged 87. Could she be another child of James and Elspet? Did she have children? Who were the witnesses at their baptisms? Is she the same person as Ian Gray, maiden name Hay, who applied to Elgin Parochial Board in 1878? If so, her application, available from the Moray Local Heritage Centre, will provide quite a lot of information about her and her origins, and her death certificate should name her parents.

Have a look through the Duffus Kirk Session records to see if any Hays were mentioned there. This isn't an easy job, because you have to go to a repository where you can access them and the sit and peer through pages of digital images. Make a note of anything you find relating to Hays, with the date, residence and anyone associated with them.

Look in the 1841 and 1851 census at FreeCEN to see if any of your Hays are recorded - maybe one of them might be living with a cousin or other relative.

Putting together all you can find out about the Hays in Duffus might just begin to show patterns or pointers. It won't be easy, and it may take a long time, but you may be rewarded.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline kb0fhp

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #23 on: Monday 05 November 12 21:53 GMT (UK) »
OK - I am in the process of getting all the baptism records.  Interestingly, Elspat and William baptisms records are on the same page.  The record for Elspat indicates 21 May 1785 and the record immediately below it is for William, dates 23 May 1787.  The record immediately before Elspat's record is dated 1787, so I suspect that 1785 may be an error in recording, and may be 1787.  The record for William shows that a William Forsyth was present.  The statutory record for William Hay shows James Hay and Elspet Forsyth as parents.  Unfortunately, the marriage Bann does not show anything. James does name his first son as William, so this is a possible hit that James' father was named William, if they followed normal naming convention (and they tended to do so).

I will let you know what I find.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #24 on: Monday 05 November 12 22:02 GMT (UK) »
Interestingly, Elspat and William baptisms records are on the same page.  The record for Elspat indicates 21 May 1785 and the record immediately below it is for William, dates 23 May 1787.  The record immediately before Elspat's record is dated 1787, so I suspect that 1785 may be an error in recording, and may be 1787. 

No, it is probably not a recording error. The chances are that they didn't get Elspet's baptism recorded at the time, and only realised their omission when they went to get William baptised, or maybe the sesson clerk or the minister had to prod them into doing the correct thing. This is quite common - sometimes you get a whole page in the register taken up with a string of late records.

Notice that the parents' banns were on 17 March and Elspet was born on 21 May of the same year - also not uncommon. The kirk session records, if extant, will almost certainly have something to say about the matter.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline GR2

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #25 on: Monday 05 November 12 22:15 GMT (UK) »
I note that your initial posting gave a date of birth for Elspet Forsyth as 1760. If she had a son, Alexander, born in 1811, 1760 is probably too early.

Offline kb0fhp

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #26 on: Monday 05 November 12 22:29 GMT (UK) »
The 1760 date is a rough estimate based on the birth of the first child - it could be +/- 10 years.  Because of the gap in children I suspect that there was another marriage, but stranger things have happened.