Searching for the Parents of John Percy Harris

[supermoussi]

I have found out on Ancestry that quite a few trees list him as the son Of Arthur Harris, but i cannot find any proof.

That is because it is fake information that has been mindlessly copied by one person after another. The Hatherop and Prittlewell Harrises have no connection whatsoever.

I was hoping to find a birth record or such for John,....anything that would list his parents.

Church records only start from c.1535. Seeing as John HARRIS of Hatherop died in 1554 and had at least one son it is very likely that he was born before Baptism records started, i.e. it is unlikely that there is any record of his birth.

It did give me the following info, however I have no idea if it is correctly for him:

Name: Harris, John
Place: Hatherop, Gloucestershire, England
Book: Burialls 1604. (Burial)

This is probably the grandson of the John who died and left a will in 1554.

HARRIS, John - Quedgeley 1544

I don't know if this is the same John

Very unlikely. HARRIS is a common name in Gloucestershire and Hatherop and Quegeley are not immediately close to one another.

[supermoussi]

Have you tried posting on the Gloucestershire board? Someone there would be more likely to help you with the Hatherop Harrises than people on the Essex board.

Also, looking at the Harris DNA Project there are a few Essex Harrises listed including some from the area Arthur (the Sheriff of Essex) was supposed to come from (Creeksea), although how accurate that info is debatable:-

http://www.harrisdna.org/results.html

If you were to match them, or another group, then perhaps the other members of the group would be able to help you.

[MLHarris]

Supermoussi. Thank you for all of your time and your help. May I ask How you know the pritwells and Haltropes wernt related? I am just trying to understand.  Thank you again. I will try the other board.
Marjorie

[supermoussi]

May I ask How you know the pritwells and Haltropes wernt related? I am just trying to understand.  Thank you again.

Did you ask that question to the people that posted the information linking them on the internet and did they encourage you to buy anything from them? Did they explain to you how a run of the mill Gloucestershire sheep and cow farmer was the son of an extremely rich Essex Gentleman and a member of the one of the wealthiest Aristocratic families;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Percy

From Aristocrat to Peasant in one generation? 

You are right to be questioning and that is why the only way you can get to the bottom of this is to research it yourself. As well as looking at all the Wills and Deeds held by Gloucester Records Office you will need to look at the HARRIS Wills and Deeds held by the Essex Records Office at Chelmsford;

http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/

Other Wills are held nationally but can be searched and downloaded from;

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/wills.htm

including the Will of Sir Arthur Harris, High Sheriff of Essex ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Harris_%28High_Sheriff_of_Essex%29 );

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D933039

Miscellaneous Deeds and documents can be searched here;

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/advanced-search.aspx?tab=1

In addition, you also need to look at Pedigrees of the HARRISes and PERCYs. These are held in Visitations of the Counties, County Histories and Genealoigcal Reference Books such as Burkes Landed Gentry, Burkes Extinct & Dormant Baronetcies, etc. Places which hold a good selection of these include the Society of Genealogists and the British Library.

Seeing as the Creeksea HARRISes included a knight there should be pedigree for him held at the Royal College of Arms ( http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/ ) but I should think they will charge you over £500 or even £1000 for it.

If John HARRIS (not John Percy HARRIS), Husbandman of Hatherup was genuinely descended from the Creeksea HARRISes and more importantly the PERCYs you will find him well documented in the above. If he has just been "bolted" on by someone trying to con people out of money you will not. A good starting point might be the Visitation of Gloucestershire which has a mangled version online:-

http://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00inchit/visitationofcoun00inchit_djvu.txt

Can't see any mention of Hatherop HARRISes or Essex but I might have missed them...


N.B. Note that spelling was very inconsistant in the 1500s so you need to search for all possible variants of HARRIS and PERCY, e.g., HARRYS, HARRICE, HARRIES, HERRIES, etc.

N.B.2. Prickley is a place in Worcestershire http://www.192.com/places/wr/wr6-6/wr6-6qq/  it is not a misspelling of Prittlewell

[MLHarris]

Dear Super Mousi,
   I want to thank you very much for all the time that you spent sending me the links. I never claimed that John Harris was decended from Arthur Harris of Prittlewell. I posted a request for help to find out who his parents might be or how to obtain a complete copy of his will. I had already been to a lot of the links that you offered me. Some require money to subscribe to them and some just confused me because no matter how much time and effort i spent i could not find any records.
 I am an old woman on a fixed income and i cannot afford the subscription fees. I would not have asked for help if i had not spent many months looking myself.
  When it was suggested that his father was Arthur Harris i found Arthur Harris in the Visitations of Essex and it lists him as only having one child named William, which I posted in a reply.
  I was simply hoping that someone smarter then I, that might have a subscription could help me find a record.  I have no problem being decended from a cow farmer. His decendents have contributed fiercely and bravely to protect our freedoms. Some parachuted into Germany during WWII. Some flew Bombers in Germany and the Pacific. Some like my Father landed on beaches and bravely fought to end the War. Some were artists and poets and Newspaper editors. Some were doctors and Ministers. I am fine not being decended from an ancestor that burned women and children alive because of their religion, such as Arthur's son William did.
 Again, I really do appreciate the time it took you to send me the links and am sorry if my posts in any way upset you. I know that a lot of people do just blindly copy information that they find. I am just trying to give a gift of accurate family ancestory to my children before i die... whatever it may be.
sincerely, marjorie

[supermoussi]

I wasn't offended in the slightest, just warning you away from some of the info posted on webrings etc.

If it's any consolation if John HARRIS of Hatherop owned 71 acres+ he wasn't exactly poor, it is just he wasn't rich either. He sounds like exactly the sort of Tudor Farmer who the majority of British people descend from.

Because Wills and BMD records run out before 1530 it is probably unlikely that you can trace much further back than him, but then again most people cannot even trace their lines back to the 1500s so you are lucky in that respect!

Probably the one chance you have to find out more is to look at the HARRIS (& MASON?) wills the Gloucester Records Office hold for the surrounding area. One of them might refer to the Hatherop HARRISes as some sort of relations giving you another piece of the jigsaw.

[MLHarris]

Dear SuperMoussi, Thank you for your relpy and advice. I will try once again to find the wills. According to Bethia there are records of the wills for John Harris and his wife Ann, but the probate date on Johns will is 1544 and i have him listed as dying in 1555 which is probably incorrect. I have his son's will which states that he be buried at St Nicholas in Halthrop. I had no luck finding any records for his father but his sons will stated it was the Harris Family Church.

Here is a copy of what i have of John Harris and his wife's will.... i will search for it again...but i have been for weeks now with no luck.
  Following is the will as taken from Bethia:
JOHN HARRIS 1513-1554 .
John Harris, yeoman, of Hartherup, co. Gloucester, was born at least as early as 1513.  He married Anne or Annis _____, perhaps about the year 1533.  His will, dated October 22, 1533, and proved June 4, 1544, left the lease of the house in which he dwelt to his daughter Alice Winchcombe, and, if she should die before it expired, the remainder of the term was to belong to her daughter.  His two sons, WILLIAM (our direct ancester)and John Harris, received seventy-two acres of land occupied by William Carney, a sheep pasture and also ten sheep and a bullock apiece.  The residuary legatee and executrix was his wife Anne Harris, and John Sermon. Peter Fathers and John Chapleyn were named overseers.  The witnesses were John George, William Manne and John Sermon..
 .
The will of Anne Harris, widow, of Hatherup, was made June 17, 1585, and proved Febuary 5, 1585/6.  She gave to her daughter Alice Winchkome (Winchcombe) a new gown, three sheets, etc., and made small personal gifts to (GRANDCHILDREN??) Anne, James, John, Thomas Winchkome & ALSO William Harris the younger, Anthony Harris and John Harris the younger, Joan Reve, Alice Kirbie, George and Marie Vincen and Elizabeth Robins.  The residuary legatee and executor was Richard Harris..
Thank you again for your time and advice.
 Sincerely, Marjorie Harris McLean

[supermoussi]

I will try once again to find the wills. According to Bethia there are records of the wills for John Harris and his wife Ann, but the probate date on Johns will is 1544 and i have him listed as dying in 1555 which is probably incorrect.

Hi Marjorie, Am confused; surely the will proved in 1554 and listed on the Glocuestershire Wills Database ( http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Search.aspx is the one you want to get a copy of, i.e.,

1554   harrys   john       hatherop   1554/ 48

The 1544 and 1555 dates on Bethia are probably mistranscriptions or typos?

As far as John's missing burial record it is probably because the surviving parish records only seem to start from 1578 so he died before they start. If you can't get to Gloucestershire Records Office the Church of LDS also have the Hatherop BMDs (and most Wills) on microfilm at Kew Gardens, London;

http://www.londonfhc.org/content/catalogue?c=2&p=England,England,Gloucester,Hatherop&f=1

[MLHarris]

Dear SuperMoussi, You are a wonder. Thank you. I found the record. I had been using the 1544 date that the will said it was probated, and mispelling his surname. Also it won't bring the record up if you put in Haltrop for the county. But it showed the record as Haltrop, so it must be the one. I wasn't allowed to look at the record but had to order it . I guess they will mail it to me. I am very excited, I hope it won't take too long to recieve it. Again, Thank you for all the trouble you went to to help me.
Marjorie