Grants & Wills from HMCTS 1858 to Date - RCJ search room to close 12 Dec 2014

[dawnsh]

Agree totally with you on all your points but, what would be helpful would be a last known address for the deceased especially when you're dealing with a common name. I did mention it in a feedback report.

All these privacy issues were discussed years ago at a business user group meeting that was also attended by the SOG and several FHS's

[dawnsh]

I went to the Users meeting on Tuesday 2nd December and am posting an update which might be useful.

The search room currently at the RCJ in the Strand will close to new orders on 12th December 2014 remaining open until 19th December 2014 for their collection. It will close permanently 19th December 2014.

After 12th December 2014 all orders for Grants of Representation must be made online.

HMCTS currently have the calendars online after 1996 but as mentioned previously the viewable data when doing searches is limited. HMCTS are working on trying to add in the last known address of the deceased which will help but this is proving problematic.

The users at the meeting are waiting to find out if the Probateman search system currently in place at the RCJ will be extended to more regional probate registries. It is this system that currently shows the users the last known address of the the deceased, the value of the estate and the name and addresses of the executors.


If HMCTS cannot solve this issue, and it doesn't just affect family historians, they will implement a dedicated feedback email where you can send your enquiries and the search team will try to locate the corect entry for you.

The example given was for John Smith and there were 1200 entries.

By 12th December 2014 HMCTS will put online the calendars from 1858-1995.

From the demonstration shown, it would appear that using Ancestry to find entries 1858-1966 might be more successful, errors and omissions excepted, and then use the data found on Ancestry to order on the HMCTS website.

The demonstration given shows that when searching for an entry, you will be taken to the calendar page the entry is supposed to be on and you must look at all the records to find the correct one.

If the entry you locate is missing or mis-spelt, there will be a feedback facility for corrections.

The data has been compiled by OCR scanning not human transcription.

The advantage to all this digitisation is that the system will be open 24/7 and accessible worldwide so finally overseas researchers who don't currently have access to a sterling bank account will be able to search, view, order, pay by credit card and download the PDF straight to their home computer.

Apparently the system has been tested and HMCTS don't envisage any problems, how many times have we heard that before?

Time will tell.

The actual wills are held off-site and stored by Iron Mountain who work 3 shift patterns to retrieve and scan the wills, process and despatch them by email.

The feedback facility for any type of correspondence is not available if you do not use Outlook, another problem they are trying to address.

In accordance with Ministry of Justice protocols, telephone numbers will not be published on the website, the only form of communication is by using the feedback system.

Dawn

Edited 11/12/2014

[smudwhisk]

Do the pre 1996 Calendars include the Executor's full postal address?

Those digitized on ancestry up to 1966 do not. I know of someone who was an executor in 1976 and 1982 who still lives at the same address.  If this is the case, then this is likely to cause them serious concerns if this information is made widely available on the web and I doubt they will be tho only one. I have read that the post 1995 restrictions are based on the interpretation of advice from the Information Commissioner relating to the possibility of descendants still living at the same addresses. But if the index is to include the addresses of Executors, then the situation applies to them too and I know many people who have lived at the same address for more than 20 years.   

[dawnsh]

The calendars after 1996 have the executors names and their addresses. If you search in person at HMCTS and use their Probateman service you can see this information. Including the executors details has never been on the cards because of privacy concerns.

The issue about digitisation is that the last known address of the 'deceased' is currently not available making some searches impossible if the name is frequently occuring and you don't have the exact date of death.

We don't all want to fork out £9.25 on a death cert if the probate calendars can give you the date of death.

[smudwhisk]

I'm glad to hear about the restrictions on executors details, just wondered.

I agree with the problems post 1995 but they obviously have to be balanced against privacy concerns.  I've used the indexes on ancestry for death dates and they are very useful.

I suppose the 20 year rule is balanced, although I do know of a couple of people who have died in the last 12 mths who lived at the same address as their parents for over 50 years. 

Is it known whether the restriction period is rolling, ie changes every year, or will stay at 1996 onwards please?

[dawnsh]

A 20 year closure period has never been mentioned so I don't know where that comes from. An example was given on Tuesday where the same family still live in a property mentioned over 100 years ago. Don't know how common that is outside of the 'aristocracy' and their family piles.

The problem is down to how the data after 1996 has been used by the Probate Service and put onto their computer system, and transferred to Iron Mountain and stored electronically there. Iron Mountain now don't have the last known address of the deceased easily accessible.

HMCTS are committed to resolving the deceased's last known address in whatever form they can.

It's the post 1996 dataset that is ever growing and will continue to do so, so it needs to be sorted now. The historic stuff 1858-19956 is just that and won't change format, it's how it's seen in the calendar books and microfiche.

[Alexander.]

The full probate calendars from 1858 to present are now searchable at the site Dawn mentioned in the original post:
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk

From 1858 to 1995, it is not indexed, but brings up the appropriate calendar page(s) for whatever name and year you search for.

Alexander

[smudwhisk]

Just did a quick test on this for pre1996.  It would appear that, although it asks for year of death, you need to enter the Probate year to find the correct entry.   My grandfather died in Dec 1944 with Probate granted in 1945.  I tried 1944 as it asked for date of death but it didn't appear, so tried 1945 and the correct page appeared.

I shall be forwarding feedback on this.  I suppose it's not surprising because they've not indexed them as for 1996 onwards, but they need to make this clear.

[dawnsh]

see my reply #10

If you are looking for a probate before 1966, then the searching and indexing on Ancestry is the way to go first (unless you don't have Ancestry). The plus side to this is that you don't need a subscription to search, it could just be time-consuming.

I too know that my 2x great grandfather died at the end of 1933 but his probate doesn't appear until 1934. So although I knew that I tested the system and had to scroll thought the 3 pages possibly containg his surname in 1933 and then move onto the next year.

HMCTS have also not been able to rectify the situation in time with regards to the last known address of the deceased after 1996 but they are still working on it and hoping for a speedy resolution.

As I attended the Users meeting last week, I got an email yestreday with some other updates I do know that they are planning a dedicated email address to go live on/about the 19th December so that you can send your queries and they will endeavour to sort them out.

In the meantime if you have queries you can still visit the RCJ and look at the calendars there but just not order documents. That has to be done online now with a credit/debit card or by post to HMCTS at Leeds with a sterling cheque.