Isabella (Walsh) Holden Belfast Birth c 1881 - 1886

[Snuggs]

I'm hoping that one of the members may be able to help me solve a puzzle that has baffled me for the last 25 years whilst doing my research. 

My grandmother was Isabella Holden born in Belfast between 1881 - 1886.  Isabella married Robert Gray in 1905.  I sent for her marriage certificate years ago and this states that her father was Alexander Holden, living in Belfast at the time. Having the certificate, I then sent for her birth certificate and that's when things became confused.  Isabella is supposedly the daughter of Alexander Holden and Isabella Donaldson, both born in villages near Clones in County Monaghan who later moved to Belfast.

Through my research I have found long lost relatives that remember Isabella and remember her marrying my grandfather Robert.  My problem is that Isabella always said she was a Walsh/Welsh Holden and I can't find any records to prove this and therefore I don't understand where  the Walsh comes into it.

There are births of Isabella Holden to the Alexander and Isabella, one born at 3 Catherine Street in 1876, she died in 1880 at 16 Sturgeon Street.  Another Isabella was born in September 1881 at the same address, which could be my grandmother.

The children of Alexander Holden and Isabella Donaldson are:-

Alexander Holden born 1873 married Sarah Jane Park
John Holden born 1871 married Suzanne Moore
William Holden born 1869 married Mary ?
Elizabeth Holden born 1864 married James Wilson
Mary Holden born 1874 married Edward Toner

Robert and Isabella had the following children, all of whom were born in Belfast.

William Gray born 1906
James Wilson Gray born 1907
Robert Alexander Gray born 1909
Isabella Gray born 1911
Albert Gray born 1913
Eva Gray born 1915
Florrie Gray born 1918
Cecil Gray born 1921

There was two other children but I don't know their names.

If anyone can help, even in a small way, I would be forever grateful.

Thank you for reading this.

Snuggs

[BallyaltikilliganG]

I went searching knowing you are stuck so I ignored your work and went looking for Holden and Walsh/Welshby records only in the hope something might click.

Back in 1832, there are 13 Holden listed in Clones civil parish on http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/.  There are 55 Walshs in Monaghan but none in Clones parish however it looks like the spelling changed as there are nearly 20 Welshs in Clones in 1832

Back in 1861 in Griffiths valuation {which has updates since} has the following in the civil parish of Clones which I have set out into townlands. It is worth noting that Clones civil parish is split along the border between Monaghan and Fermanagh

Holden   William, Jr.   Carrivetragh   Clones   Monaghan  gone by 1901
Holden   Wm      Carrivetragh   Clones   Monaghan  gone by 1901

Holden   Joseph      Clones Whitehall St   Monaghan, gone or Lisoarty in 1901

Holden   Mary      Coraghy   Clones   Monaghan
Holden   James      Coraghy   Clones   Monaghan gone by 1901
Holden   William   Coraghy   Clones   Monaghan gone by 1901

Holden   Samuel   Drumadrainy   Clones   Monaghan gone by 1901

Holden   Thomas   Gortnawinny   Clones   Monaghan gone by 1901

Also in Clones civil parish are
Walsh               John                Clones   Cara St              Clones     Monaghan
Walsh               Maria                 Clones  Whitehall St          Clones     Monaghan
Walsh               Samuel                Clones   Fermanagh St         Clones     Monaghan
Walsh               Samuel            Clonkeen (Cole)               Clones     Monaghan
Walsh               Maria              Legarhill                     Clones     Monaghan
Walsh               Rev. Charles     Magheranure                   Clones     Monaghan
But no Welsh at all.
From which I determine a Holden and a Walsh family are living in the same street. I also note a clergyman which might strain mixed marriages etc and be a reason to leave a district.

The  Irish 1901 census doesn’t use the civil parish but a district. Clones Rural which should mean it also has Clones Urban? Again I have arranged by twonlandsin the same townlands are living

Holden   Anne Jane   Aghafin   Clones Rural   Monaghan   68   F
Holden   Ellen      Coraghy   Clones Rural   Monaghan   84   F
Holden   Mary      Coraghy   Clones Rural   Monaghan   78   F
Holden   Florance   Lisoarty   Clones Rural   Monaghan   0   F
Holden   Eliza Jane   Lisoarty   Clones Rural   Monaghan   51   F
Holden   John      Lisoarty   Clones Rural   Monaghan   80   M
Holden   Joseph      Lisoarty   Clones Rural   Monaghan   38   M
Holden   Margaret   Lisoarty   Clones Rural   Monaghan   23   F
Holden   Sarah Jane   Lisoarty   Clones Rural   Monaghan   3   F
Holden   Robert      Lisoarty   Clones Rural   Monaghan   33   M
Holden   Minnie      Magheranure   Clones Rural   Monaghan   30   F

Church records for Clones are listed on PRONI see section on Online Quides and select the first item Guide to church records then see page 141.  I am stopping here as out of time available.
I would pursue the church records if you haven’t already. I would switch forums to monaghan for this query
Good luck Jim

[Snuggs]

Dear Jim,

I can't thank you enough for spending so much time on my query. I am so grateful for this information and also for the correct spellings of the village.  I recognise some of the names and I'm pretty sure the William's of Carriventragh are mine. I'm about 90% sure that some of the ones in Lisorty are too.

The line of research I have been following fits in with the names you have given me. For example, Alexander Holden, son of William Holden came from Carriventragh, marrying Isabella Donaldson from Tinnahinch. BY 1901 they were in Belfast.

William, I believe is the child of William Holden and Mary and their children were John, William, Mary, Elizabeth, Joseph & Samuel as you have recorded.

Further more, I like your explanation about the Holden and Walsh living close and of the clergy, which would make sense. Many years ago I borrowed the microfiche of Clones Parish records from the lDS library where I lived and there are sections on some years which show that a particular religious denomination had left the area on mass.

The link that you sent to me for the tithe applotment books has given me details of Foster Donaldson, Isabella's father, again many thanks for this.

I will certainly check the PRONI for the Church records.

Thank you again Jim, you have been so helpful!

Best wishes
Lorraine

[mackinnell]

Hi Lorraine,

I am also descended from the Holden family that resided in Clones Parish, County Monaghan, Ireland.  I am interested in exchanging information with other descendants.  I have a great deal of information regarding various branches of the family that I would be willing to share.  If you are interested in exchanging information regarding our mutual lines of descent from the Holden family of Clones, please contact me directly via email at tary23@yahoo.com.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Best Regards,

Craig