MOTT/MOTTE/MOTTS, All

[mottman]

Hi Bootzy

I have only come across one Robert Mott from Suffolk so far that might fit. He was tried with his cousin George Pulham for Arson in 1835 aged 20. George Pulham was executed but I do not know what happened to Robert Mott who was acquitted. You can see the story at this link.

http://www.geocities.com/foreman57uk/index-page12.html

My Motts were in Lidgate, Suffolk around that time although I haven't yet fitted the aforementioned Robert into my tree. I would be interested to know the details of your Robert's marriage to Mary Webb - maybe his father is listed and can be traced in the census - or there may be useful witnesses.

Let me know if you ever find any connection to Lidgate Suffolk, or further back to Kirtling and Bottisham Cambridgeshire.

Good luck in your research

Lyla

Hi Bootzy, Just read your entry concerning Robert Mott. I do not have a Robert who was confirmed to be born of Lidgate, although the guy Lyla mentions involved in the fire in 1835 may have been born there. However there were two Roberts born in Suffolk around the supposed birthyear of 1814/5. The first was born circa 1814 in Gorleston (on the east coast nr Gt Yarmouth) and the second at Cratfield. Unfortunately both places a long way from Lidgate. As suggested by Lyla, it is possible/probable that your Robert came from Cambridgeshire, across the border from Suffolk?
Fred

[mottman]

Hi Fred & Motts everywhere

Its been a while since anybody posted on this thread - I hope somebody is still reading it!!!

I wanted to add my Mott interests which appear to originate from the Bottisham area of Cambridgeshire. I would be very grateful if you could tell me if my research matches your own findings.

I'm pretty sure I have traced my family correctly as far back as James Mott born 1764 Kirtling, Cambs to William Mott and Catherine Sargent who married in Kirtling in 1761. I think that William must be the one born 1738 to Thomas and Sarah Mott.  A Thomas Mott of Bottisham married a Sarah Nichols in Cambridge 1737 which all fits.
There is a baptism of a Thomas Mott to William and Elizabeth Mott 1706 Bottisham and if all the above is true I think the Motts can be traced back a couple of generations in Bottisham

Anyway, I would be interested in your thoughts and If you would like more details on this branch please let me know.

Lyla

Hi Lyla, Yes I am afraid that I have to admit not visiting this site for a while, hence my late reply to your posting. Constantly busy with census rtns etc, plus going on holidays and visiting. What a life!! Regarding the info you gave, I have a James Mott born 1764 in Swaffham Prior, just north of Bottisham, parents unknown. He wed Ann Blinksops in 1785 in S.P. and had Anne in 1792 - no further info. I have on file the William 1738, s/o Thomas & Sarah, plus Thomas 1706, s/o William & Elizabeth.  Two new pieces of info (to me) was the marriage of William to Catherine Sargent in 1761 and Thomas to Sarah Nichols in 1737, so many thanks for that. Yes I would like any other info you may have on this branch (or any other family) please.
Fred

[lyla]

Hi Fred

Glad to have you back. I'm going to try to set out what I know, what I think I know and some guess-work in the hope that you might have some further information or can point out any errors.

I'm particularly stumped as I can't find a baptism of my ancestor Abraham Mott c1827 who always says he was born in Lidgate. I do know that he was the son of William Mott  born 1789 Kirtling and Mary Everard who married in Lidgate in 1821. Their known children are Joseph c1822, Abraham c1827 (married 1 Ann Sharp, 2 Charlotte Suttle) James c1836 and Elizabeth c1840 (married John Marsh)

William 1789 is the son of James Mott 1764 Kirtling and Ann Coote who married in Kirtling 1788.  James and Ann also had Samuel 1797 (married Elizabeth Paine) and Martha 1800 all Kirtling, Robert and Sophia 1811 Lidgate.

There is an interesting quarter session Easter 1791 of a James and Ann Mott of Burwell being fined for assault. I wondered if it was my James and Ann from Kirtling/Lidgate but it now seems likelier that it was the James and Ann you mentioned from Swaffam which is nearer to Burwell.

James 1764 Kirtling was the son of William Mott 1738 and Catherine Sargent of Dullingham who married in Kirtling 1761. Their other children I beleive were James 1764, David 1767, Elizabeth 1769, Amos 1771 and Catherine 1774. Catherine 1774 was baptised the same day her mother was buried. Willam remarried Alice Ginn in 1774 and they had John c1776.

The rest is just guessing but I think that William 1738 must be the one baptised to Thomas and Sarah Mott in Bottisham. I think this could be the Thomas Mott who married Sarah Nicholl in 1737 Cambridge and so Thomas could be the one born to William and Elizabeth Mott in Bottisham 1706.

I would be grateful for any other information you might have and please let me know if there is anything more you would like to know about the people I have mentioned.

Regards
Lyla

[lyla]

Hi Bootzy

In my notes I just found that in 1841 Lidgate there was a Robert Mott aged 30 and wife Mary aged 30. I wonder if this might be your Robert? It seems quite likely as Lidgate was near the Risbridge registration district (actually its in the Newmarket district but still very close).  You can see all the places in Risbridge at this link.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SFK/RegDists.html

It would be well worth obtaining the 1839 marriage certificate to see what it says.  A Robert was baptised in Lidgate in 1811 to James and Ann and could therefore tie in with my family mentioned below. He may even be the same Robert of the arson trial!

Let me know if you can make a connection.

Lyla

[mottman]

Hi Fred

Glad to have you back. I'm going to try to set out what I know, what I think I know and some guess-work in the hope that you might have some further information or can point out any errors.

I'm particularly stumped as I can't find a baptism of my ancestor Abraham Mott c1827 who always says he was born in Lidgate. I do know that he was the son of William Mott  born 1789 Kirtling and Mary Everard who married in Lidgate in 1821. Their known children are Joseph c1822, Abraham c1827 (married 1 Ann Sharp, 2 Charlotte Suttle) James c1836 and Elizabeth c1840 (married John Marsh)

William 1789 is the son of James Mott 1764 Kirtling and Ann Coote who married in Kirtling 1788.  James and Ann also had Samuel 1797 (married Elizabeth Paine) and Martha 1800 all Kirtling, Robert and Sophia 1811 Lidgate.

There is an interesting quarter session Easter 1791 of a James and Ann Mott of Burwell being fined for assault. I wondered if it was my James and Ann from Kirtling/Lidgate but it now seems likelier that it was the James and Ann you mentioned from Swaffam which is nearer to Burwell.

James 1764 Kirtling was the son of William Mott 1738 and Catherine Sargent of Dullingham who married in Kirtling 1761. Their other children I beleive were James 1764, David 1767, Elizabeth 1769, Amos 1771 and Catherine 1774. Catherine 1774 was baptised the same day her mother was buried. Willam remarried Alice Ginn in 1774 and they had John c1776.

The rest is just guessing but I think that William 1738 must be the one baptised to Thomas and Sarah Mott in Bottisham. I think this could be the Thomas Mott who married Sarah Nicholl in 1737 Cambridge and so Thomas could be the one born to William and Elizabeth Mott in Bottisham 1706.

I would be grateful for any other information you might have and please let me know if there is anything more you would like to know about the people I have mentioned.

Regards
Lyla


Hi Lyla,
Well you gave me something to think about there! As things are at present I also am unable to produce a baptism for Abraham ca 1826/7. I was aware of his parentage, but currently have William down for a birth year circa 1795 - in the 1841 census he gave his age as 45 and his wife as 40, their address being "The Hall, Lidgate". May I ask where the year you quote for William - 1789 - came from?
In the list of issue for William & Mary you showa James b. 1835. I believe there were two James' the first born 1832?
You gave me two marriages for Abraham 1827 and I was only aware of one, so many thanks for that, plus I only knew the forename of his wife to be Charlotte. The two marriages solves the mystery of the age gap between the children - Joseph aged 10 then Harriet,4, and Samuel 2. His first wife Ann died 1855 March qtr 4a.306 Risbridge. In Kelly's 1860 Middlesex Abraham was a "Marine Store Dealer" and living at Acre Road, Richmond Road, Kingston.
You then gave me the marriage for Elizabeth ca 1840 to John Marsh, information that was new to me - thanks again.
I have the baptism for William 1789 (26 July 1789 Kirtling), but I have a variation for his mothers' maiden name. You show COOTE, but I have COATS. Likewise, you show the father James as being born ca 1764, whereas I have 1749? My info came from another Mott researcher so I can't swear to which is right. At present I do not have this William being the same guy as in the first paragraph above. In the National Burial Index there is a burial recorded for a William on 10th December 1868 at St. Mary, Lidgate, "aged 79 years." I wonder if this is the same William?
As for the siblings of William, we differ on the date for Samuel - 1797 or 1791? The siblings I have listed are:- Samuel(1791);David(1793);James(1795);Sally(1795); John(1797);Martha(1800);James(1803).
I have eight children listed from the marriage of Samuel to Elizabeth Pain. Do you agree with this?
You say you believe that William 1738, father of James 1764 (1749), must be the one born Bottisham. I would agree with that. Bottisham, Dullingham and Lidgate are all in the same area, and I don't see another William on the database to match. I further agree that William's father Thomas is the one who wed Sarah Nicholl, and possibly the son of William & Elizabeth. However, you have 1706 for his birth, I say 1716? I arrived at 1716 by deducting 21 years from the marriage date (1737).
That's about it for this session - enough for you to mull over? Let me know what you think about the differences we have in dates.
Got a lot of catching up to do here. I am trying to work my way through the database together with the census rtns, especially since the 1911 census came out. I have 28,643 names in the database, plus many more not yet inputted, and it's going to take me forever to get it done, but it keeps me out of the pub and away from the TV!!
By the way, I was going to tell Bootzy about the 1841 census with Robert and Mary but you beat me to it.
Take care,
Fred

[lyla]

Wow, thanks for all that info - its great to find somebody interested in the same family as me once in a while! In answer to your questions:

William and Mary:
My mum made a note from the parish register in Kirtling Cambs of William Mott 26/7/1789 to James and Ann Mott. I don't have a copy but I think it may have listed Ann's maiden name as being Coote (something I will have to check for myself - maybe it says Coats). William died in Lidgate 2/12/1868 aged 79 so I think the 1841 is incorrect. In 1861 he was aged 70.

The James born 1836 is from the IGI but I think he married an Ann Steadman from Crayford Kent. He is in Lambeth in 1881, I couldnt find him in 1891 but his wife is a widow by 1901 in Hendon. They don't appear to have had any children.

I have that Abraham had 2 children with his first wife Ann Sharp. Joseph c1851 who died aged 13 15/6/1864 Lidgate and George c1853 who seems to have been raised by his grandparents Jonathan and Harriet Sharp.

Abraham and Charlotte had the following children in Lidgate:
Amelia Harriet (2 yrs) 17/10/1858, Samuel (my ancestor) 17/10/1858, Ann 1/9/1861, Elizth (2yrs) and Joseph 29/2/1867 and Alice 24/4/1870. Some time between 1871 and 1881 they moved to Fulham. Your reference to him being a Marine Store Dealer in 1860 seems unlikely because in 1861 he was still a shepherd in Suffolk. Abraham died 4/8/1889 Fulham aged 61

Elizabeth c1840 seems to have married John Marsh Mar 1866. In the 1871 census there is a mother-in-law Mary Marsh with them. I beleive this is really Mary Mott, Williams widow.

James and Ann Mott:
James Mott died in Lidgate 15/5/1839 aged 70 which puts his birth around 1769 which fits better with the baptism in Kirtling 16/9/1764 to William and Katherine and the marriage in Kirtling 18/11/1788 to Ann Coote (I could be wrong though). Also, the Kirtling children I have found William 1789, Samuel 1791 (you were right I mis-typed it before) and Martha 1800 all fit with a subsequent move to Lidgate and two futher children baptised 12/7/1811 Sophia and Robert. I didnt know about the other children so thanks for that - were they baptised in Kirtling?

I don't know anything more about Samuel and Elizabeth Pain. Somewhere I have a tree given to me by another researcher but at present I can't lay my hands on the details.

I'm not sure now where the Thomas birth in 1706 came from so until I have had a chance to decipher all my notes properly I am going to leave it there for now.

My ancestor Samuel Mott was born 17/10/1858 Lidgate and married Ada Jane Gibson in Chelsea 7/7/1878. He died in Poplar aged 80 on 16/2/1937.

Please keep in touch with anything you find regarding this Mott branch.

Regards

Lyla

Lyla

[mottman]

Thanks for all the update. Quite a lot for me to peruse, but as it getting a bit late I'm going to leave it till the morrow. I've had a busy day out in the garden today and yesterday, so I've promised myself all day tomorrow and Friday to be on the computer working on these Mott's (and the variations).
Will go thru what you've sent and will be in touch shortly.
Many thanks again,
Fred

[mottman]

Thanks for all the update. Quite a lot for me to peruse, but as it getting a bit late I'm going to leave it till the morrow. I've had a busy day out in the garden today and yesterday, so I've promised myself all day tomorrow and Friday to be on the computer working on these Mott's (and the variations).
Will go thru what you've sent and will be in touch shortly.
Many thanks again,
Fred

Saturday 11th and I think I have completed my task. I spent most of Thursday and Friday going thru my database, checking census rtns and cross checking your info against mine and I hope you wil find something useful here. It is going to be a long message, so I might split it into divisions.
William 1789.
Based on what your mum noted from the Parish Records, this leaves the question - did William lie about his and his wifes' ages in the 1841 census, or was that William a completely different person? If I treat my William 1795 as being a different person to William 1789 then the whole family listed in the census does not belong on your tree. However, if you study the list of children in that census you will see that they all match exactly the list of issue you have for William 1789. Based on this it is fairly obvious that the two Williams are the same person, and the ages given were totally incorrect.
It is not unknown for incorrect ages/places of birth to be given in census rtns, as you may have found out? Sometimes it is the householder at fault, sometimes the transcriber. Take it all with a pinch of salt, that's my motto! See more examples below.
James 1835.
Son of William & Mary (EVERARD). I have only one 'James' in the database shown for Lidgate. You suggest that James possibly wed Ann Steadman from Kent. I do not have this info and cannot find a marriage for him in my marriage registers. Do you have any further info on this? I have found a marriage for an Ann Steadman in 1860 December qtr 3b.256 Newmarket, but there is no corresponding marriage under Mott. I also have a problem with tracing them in the census - you say James was in Lambeth in 1881, not found in 1891, and his wife was a widow in in Hendon in 1901. According to the version of the 1881 census from 'findmypast' there is no James to match (not that I could find, anyway) nor could I find Ann Mott in Hendon in 1901?
George ca 1853.
George's birth registration is 1854 March qtr 4a.349 Risbridge, possibly born December 1853? Strange he was living with his grandparents Sharp in both 1861 & 1871 censuses. He 'disappears' after that, not found in any census. No death found yet, tried the GRO, military records & emigration.
George's family were in Bury Lane in 1861 - his father Abraham's name was written Abram and transcribed as 'Brown' !! - and living in Wickhambrook Road in 1871, but minus Abraham. Looked to see if I could find Abraham elsewhere and came across one who almost fitted. In Calford there was an "Abraham, lodger, married, born Lidgate, shepherd, aged 28 years." This guy ticked all the right boxes except for his age - 28 not 45. Abraham reappears in Fulham in 1881 aged 53.
I concede that the Abraham in the Kelly's Middlesex 1860 "Marine Store Dealer" is a different person altogether, but I've no idea yet as to who he was (where from).
Abraham 1826.
You show his first born to be named Amelia Harriet - I have just Harriet. Can you enlighten me?
Elizabeth ca 1840.
Her birth registered 1839 December qtr 14.95 Newmarket. She wed 1866 March qtr 3b.639 Newmarket. Her future husband John Marsh was shown in the 1861 census to be living at the house of George Mott (1838), together with his mother Mary Marsh and siblings. George 1838 was a son of Samuel 1791 & Elizabeth Pain.
End of page one!! One more to come.

[mottman]

Hi Lyla,
Further to page one I typed out page two but I'm not sure that it went??
Can you let me know if you get it please, otherwise I'll have to type it all out again !!
I'm away for the weekend so will be in touch next week.
Fred