Author Topic: Mystery solvers help required  (Read 9478 times)

Offline Peewee

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Mystery solvers help required
« on: Tuesday 16 October 12 15:03 BST (UK) »
Help is required in identifying the mystery of my friend’s paternal grandfather.

Her paternal grandmother (now deceased) was born Alice Emily Brown on 27th May 1893 at Lye Green, Withyham, East Grinstead, Sussex. My friend’s father was born on 14th December 1919 at Rotherfield, Uckfield, Sussex. I cannot mention his name as he is still alive. The birth certificate states that the child’s mother was Alice Emily Murray formerly Brown, and the child’s father was a Thomas Simpson Murray who was  a “private in the Irish Guards”. It is Thomas Simpson Murray where the mystery begins.

We could not find Thomas’ birth and we have repeatedly looked for the marriage of a Thomas Simpson Murray to an Alice Emily Brown but cannot locate one, having tried all the possible variations  we can imagine.

I did find  a World War 1 medal record for Thomas Simpson Murray. It shows that Thomas joined the army with the service number of 6060 with the 2nd Battalion the Irish Guards.

On 9th August 1971, grandmother Alice Emily Murray registered the death of her husband in Worthing, Sussex. She gives his name as WILLIAM JOHN MURRAY who was born on 6th July 1893 in Northern Ireland and who was a “corporal Irish Guards (retired)”. There were 3 men of this name born in Northern Ireland in 1893.

I cannot find a marriage between an Alice Emily Brown and a William John Murray.

So who was the grandfather, Thomas Simpson Murray or William John Murray, both of whom served in the Irish Guards, and why cannot I find a marriage for Alice Emily Brown?



Watts  - Middx, Bethnal Green, Romford Essex
Palmer  - Nether and Over Stowey Somerset
Symons- Bishops Hull, Taunton, Bishops Lydeard all in Somerset
Coles - Somerset
Loddy - Pimlico London , Devonport
Le May - Bethnal Green, London

Offline MargP

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Re: Mystery solvers help required
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 16 October 12 15:29 BST (UK) »
Hi

What did the son b 1919 say his father's name was, if the certificates that you have are from the GRO these maybe transcribed from the parish records, and I know that error's can happen.

Have you looked in Ireland for a marriage, are there any other children born to this couple, if so what is on there birth certificates

Margp



Family History is a Pandora's box if you don't like what you see find a new hobby,only concentrate on the proven facts and not the facts you think you know.
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Offline Peewee

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Re: Mystery solvers help required
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 16 October 12 19:18 BST (UK) »
Hi Marp, The 1919 certificate is an original document and shows the father's name as Thomas Simpson Murray. There were 2 children born to this marriage, the son (where I have the 1919 certificate and where he is still alive) plus a daughter named Maissie born in Brighton who is deceased. They have the same information.

I did look at the Irish records but found nothing but I am not experienced with researching there.
Watts  - Middx, Bethnal Green, Romford Essex
Palmer  - Nether and Over Stowey Somerset
Symons- Bishops Hull, Taunton, Bishops Lydeard all in Somerset
Coles - Somerset
Loddy - Pimlico London , Devonport
Le May - Bethnal Green, London

Offline jann

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Re: Mystery solvers help required
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 16 October 12 21:05 BST (UK) »
Hi,

Did either or both of the 2 children marry? f so it may be worth buying the marriage records to see who
each  names as "father"on the certificate.

It's possible that Alice and her husband got married in a military chapel or on a military base.  I believe those marriage records are kept separately from the civilian record system - but I'm not sure.

You might try the Armed Forces section in the Forums.

Jann




Offline Roy G

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Re: Mystery solvers help required
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 17 October 12 07:09 BST (UK) »
I see from FREEBMD that there appear to have been three children from the union not two.  Another son was born in Eastbourne 1921 and then the daughter born in Brighton in 1925.  Have you the birth cert for the daughter giving a Brighton address?  If you have, the Brighton Kellys directories from around that time might give you the name that Thomas or William Murray preferred to be known by.  The Electoral Role would also be a good source of info for that should also verify his wife's name.

I agree with others suggestions about the marriage cert you have yet to find, but have to throw two further suggestions into the pot for you to consider. 
Could William/Thomas have been married before or Alice come to that?   There is an Eastbourne marriage in 1915 of an Annie Powell to a William J Murray that might be worth considering as either Wm/Thos' marriage to someone else or them both marrying each other, but with Alice using a late husband's surname.  Alternatively, I have to ask whether you have ever considered that for some reason or other, they never actually married?  Living together is not just the perogative of present day society, but in the past, people were less open about it.   

Roy G

Offline MargP

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Re: Mystery solvers help required
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 17 October 12 09:05 BST (UK) »
Hi

The only record I can find for Thomas Simpson Murray is this death record

Thomas Simpson Murray
b 14 Dec 1919
d Jun Qtr 1994
Reg Islington
Reg No C28
Dist/Subdistrict 2381c
Entry No 183

I have also so found this birth record which maybe the chap above

Thomas S Murray
Mothers maiden name Brown
Jan Qtr 1920
Reg dist Uckfield
Hampshire
Vol 2b
Page 237

At the moment I am not sure what's going on here, but I think that these 2 records may hold the clue

Margp
Family History is a Pandora's box if you don't like what you see find a new hobby,only concentrate on the proven facts and not the facts you think you know.
Jenkins, Radnorshire. Herefordshire, Canada
Coley Dudley.
Baston, Cleobury Mortimer.Wolverhampton
Parker Stafford.
Hammond/s Wolverhampton.Shropshire
Duckworth Cheshire.
Proud Walsall.Proud Cape South Africa
Horton Darlaston.
Stanton Walsall.
Tudor. Radnorshire
Pittaway. Droitwich

Offline MargP

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Re: Mystery solvers help required
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 17 October 12 09:23 BST (UK) »
Hi

The only record I can find for Thomas Simpson Murray is this death record

Thomas Simpson Murray
b 14 Dec 1919
d Jun Qtr 1994
Reg Islington
Reg No C28
Dist/Subdistrict 2381c
Entry No 183

I have also so found this birth record which maybe the chap above

Thomas S Murray
Mothers maiden name Brown
Jan Qtr 1920
Reg dist Uckfield
Hampshire
Vol 2b
Page 237

At the moment I am not sure what's going on here, but I think that these 2 records may hold the clue

Margp
Hi,I have just noticed that on the DC for Thomas, that he as the same birth date as your friends father who is still alive????????
Family History is a Pandora's box if you don't like what you see find a new hobby,only concentrate on the proven facts and not the facts you think you know.
Jenkins, Radnorshire. Herefordshire, Canada
Coley Dudley.
Baston, Cleobury Mortimer.Wolverhampton
Parker Stafford.
Hammond/s Wolverhampton.Shropshire
Duckworth Cheshire.
Proud Walsall.Proud Cape South Africa
Horton Darlaston.
Stanton Walsall.
Tudor. Radnorshire
Pittaway. Droitwich

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Mystery solvers help required
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 17 October 12 09:42 BST (UK) »
On 9th August 1971, grandmother Alice Emily Murray registered the death of her husband in Worthing, Sussex. She gives his name as WILLIAM JOHN MURRAY who was born on 6th July 1893 in Northern Ireland and who was a “corporal Irish Guards (retired)”. There were 3 men of this name born in Northern Ireland in 1893.

The 1911 census for Ireland has this possibility:
28 Alfred Street, Ballymena

Murray, William  Head  M  59  Presbytarian  General Labourer  b Ballymena
Murray, Rose  Wife  F  52  b County Antrim
Murray, Hugh  Son  M  19  Agent  b Co Antrim
Murray, Thomas S  Son  M  17  General Labourer  b Co Antrim
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline MargP

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Re: Mystery solvers help required
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 17 October 12 11:05 BST (UK) »
On 9th August 1971, grandmother Alice Emily Murray registered the death of her husband in Worthing, Sussex. She gives his name as WILLIAM JOHN MURRAY who was born on 6th July 1893 in Northern Ireland and who was a “corporal Irish Guards (retired)”. There were 3 men of this name born in Northern Ireland in 1893.

The 1911 census for Ireland has this possibility:
28 Alfred Street, Ballymena

Murray, William  Head  M  59  Presbytarian  General Labourer  b Ballymena
Murray, Rose  Wife  F  52  b County Antrim
Murray, Hugh  Son  M  19  Agent  b Co Antrim
Murray, Thomas S  Son  M  17  General Labourer  b Co Antrim
I wonder if William married a Rose Simpson
Family History is a Pandora's box if you don't like what you see find a new hobby,only concentrate on the proven facts and not the facts you think you know.
Jenkins, Radnorshire. Herefordshire, Canada
Coley Dudley.
Baston, Cleobury Mortimer.Wolverhampton
Parker Stafford.
Hammond/s Wolverhampton.Shropshire
Duckworth Cheshire.
Proud Walsall.Proud Cape South Africa
Horton Darlaston.
Stanton Walsall.
Tudor. Radnorshire
Pittaway. Droitwich