RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: linmey on Saturday 01 April 06 20:37 BST (UK)
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Recently, when researching my Scottish roots, I found out that my grandparents were first cousins. I was mildly surprised because nobody had mentioned it before but when I questioned my Aunt I got the impression that I had stumbled across a family secret that she would rather I hadnt questioned her about.
I was wondering if anyone else has unwittingly discovered a family relationship that has been kept hidden, and did it cause any problems when you did.
Linda.
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Linda,
I didn't uncover this but it was a family secret back in the day.
My mother-in-law's parents were first cousins. They snuck off to get married in another city (in the 1920s), then each returned home to their own parents. They lived apart for the next five to seven years. My MIL's father was sickly, and her mother wasn't supposed to be able to get pregnant, so they were surprised to learn she was five months along. That's when they had to 'fess up to their parents and move in together.
I'm still waiting for the opportunity to tell my aunties that their grandmother's grandmother was Jewish. That's the big secret (or lost detail) that I've uncovered recently.
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi there,
Looking at the Welsh side of my family, for generations it seems to be Rees marrying Rees!
I have no idea if they were closely related though...or if everyone in that part of Glamorgan was called Rees:-)))
Romilly. ;)
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Hi Josephine,
Thats very interesting, because its not against the law for first cousins to marry but obviously it has been something that people have tried to hide. Thats why I thought it would be interesting to hear others experiences.
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Hi Romilly, I have had the same experience of the same names cropping up over and over again in the same families but I havnt been able to tie them together.
I wonder also if views were different in Scotland and what the church thought about first cousins marrying.
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My grandmother was banished from her home in Brighton by her parents, and sent to be a cook in Guildford, in order to curtail her relationship with her first cousin. My mum says that this was because marriage between first cousins was frowned upon in Roman Catholic families at the time (1920s), but presumably it extended further than this particular faith.
Oddly enough though, my grandmother's aunt married HER first cousin (AND in a Catholic church) - and this was the same Brighton family....
Clare
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Hi Romilly, I have had the same experience of the same names cropping up over and over again in the same families but I havnt been able to tie them together.
I wonder also if views were different in Scotland and what the church thought about first cousins marrying.
Hi Linmey,
I might be wrong on this...but wasn't it a Biblical thing, - that 1st cousins were forbidden to marry?
I know that my mother in law wanted to marry a 1st cousin, & neither of their parents would allow it. (I phoned him when she died last year, & he was terribly upset about it).
Romilly.
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Linda,
At some point in time, I think it was against the law in Canada for first cousins to marry (at least that's what my mother told me when I was young). Maybe I'm wrong.
Regards,
Josephine
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Despite whatever the religious didacts may be, or may have been, I must admit that in the here and now, and taking into consideration my own agnosticism, I still would think it was a bit weird if my daughter wanted to marry my sister's son.......!!!
But good luck to those who bucked the trend!
Clare
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Well, I remember being a bored choir girl and spending lots of time looking at the Kindred and Affinity table in The Book of Common Prayer and I am pretty sure the marriage of first cousins was not forbidden. We need Suttontrust, Behindthefrogs, and Guy on this one. It is certainly not listed anyway.
I guess today, with a larger population and more population mobility it seens more unusual and not quite so acceptable.
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Its not so much a secret, or inbreeding as such, but recent researching has confirmed things my mother was told before her mother died.
My great grandparents had 3 children, the youngest being my nan, then my great grandied died. My Great nan remarried and they had two more children.
My nans first husband, was her step dads cousin. My moms dad was the cousin of who at the time was the only grandad she knew about!
We've also found out that my moms granddad on her fathers side and step grandad on her mothers side were both called Walter Machin, and of course, were uncle and nephew.
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Gets confusing when you try putting it into Family Tree Maker!!! I work with 2 people of the muslim faith and marrying cousins is not allowed in their tradition.
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Golly, I live in Turkey, a Muslim country and practically everyone in the country districts marries their first cousin.
So maybe it's a tradition that varies from Muslim country to Muslim country
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Most of us trace our ancestors back to small villages, where they seem to have lived for several generations. In those little communities it would be surprising if a certain amount of "inbreeding" didn't occur. People generally tried to avoid it, but first cousin marriage was not uncommon. And I've posted before about Ernest whose mother was also his sister-in-law!
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These are "the rules" in Northern Ireland these days ..... ! - wonder how much it has changed ??
Type of Relationships Within Which Marriage is Unlawful
(i) Relationships by consanguinity
A man may not marry his:- A woman may not marry her:-
Mother Father
Daughter Son
Grandmother Grandfather
Granddaughter Grandson
Sister Brother
Aunt Uncle
Niece Nephew
Great-grandmother Great-grandfather
Great-granddaughter Great-grandson
(ii) Relationships by affinity
(a) Except in the circumstances explained in note (a) below.
A man may not marry his:- A woman may not marry her:-
Former wife’s daughter or granddaughter. Former husband’s son or grandson.
Father’s or grandfather’s former wife. Mother’s or grandmother’s former husband.
(b) Except in the circumstances explained in note (b) below.
A man may not marry his:- A woman may not marry her:-
Former wife’s mother. Former husband’s father.
Son’s former wife. Daughter’s former husband.
(iii) Relationships by adoption
A man may not marry his:- A woman may not marry her:-
Adoptive mother or former adoptive mother Adoptive father or former adoptive father.
Adopted daughter or former adopted daughter Adopted son or former adopted son.
Notes
a)Parties related within the degrees listed at 2a must be 21 years of age or over at the time of the marriage and the younger party must not, before his or her 18th birthday, have lived in the same household as the other party and been treated by that person as a child of the family.
b)Parties related within the degrees listed at 2b must be 21 years of age or over at the time of the marriage and the family members involved in creating the in-law relationship must both be deceased, eg for a man to marry his daughter-in-law, both his son and his son’s mother (usually but not always his wife) would require to be deceased.
Annie :)
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Well, I remember being a bored choir girl and spending lots of time looking at the Kindred and Affinity table in The Book of Common Prayer and I am pretty sure the marriage of first cousins was not forbidden. We need Suttontrust, Behindthefrogs, and Guy on this one. It is certainly not listed anyway.
I guess today, with a larger population and more population mobility it seens more unusual and not quite so acceptable.
As far as I can remember from my Book of Common Prayer - still have one I had as a communion present somewhere - first cousins were the closest kin that were allowed to marry.
Gadget
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Yes Gadget, you are right and I have just looked at my Book of Common Prayer to double check. What Annie has posted looks like it agrees as well.
I think the muslim tradition does differ because these are shia muslims from Iraq. I was surprised as well!!!
But as Suttontrust says, it must have been common.
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The Bible doesn't forbid marriage between cousins - the list of prohibited relationships can be found in Leviticus 18. Cousin marriage was banned by the Roman Catholic church under Pope Gregory I, but the Protestant church (including Anglicans) has always permitted it, except in the US.
Albert Einstein and Charles Darwin both married their first cousins!
In the past, marriage between cousins was frequent, and probably inevitable, as Suttontrust pointed out, but the genetic risk is slight, unless there are nasty recessive genes floating around in the family... :(
Rambler
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Hi Manchester Rambler,
Do you happen to know the reason for it not being allowed in the US. And what was the situation in England before the reformation? Was it officially banned by the catholic church but in reality very common?
As for the genetic risks, I work in audiological medicine and if we are investigating the reasons for a childs hearing loss and we suspect its genetic, one of the first things we check is if the parents are cousins because of the increased risks. I guess that cousins are no less a risk than the union of any other family members.
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Hi Linmey,
From googling, I understand that out-of-date research in the US blamed various birth defects on cousin marriage, but that this is now pretty well discredited - I'm NOT an expert, however!
It seems that the genetic risk is slightly higher for children whose parents are cousins, but that only applies if one (or both) of the parents is unhealthy. My husband is a biologist, but - nach - is now asleep, so don't think this is the moment to ask him for an explanation! ;D
However, he has frequently pointed out to me that it's normal for our kids to be healthy because they're hybrids... ??? ??? (He's Swiss, I'm English!)
I don't know how common cousin marriage was before the Reformation, but my uncle (who researched Mum's family) has found at least one case among my Irish Catholic ancestors in the 1800's.
I'll try and find out more on the biological pros and cons tomorrow, but I'm about to keel over and go to bed - 17th wedding anniversary today, and far too much champagne is starting to have its effect.... ;D
Rambler (Or perhaps Staggerer ismore accurate right now!)
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Congratulations on your wedding anniversary Rambler. Hope you dont have too much of a hangover in the morning.
Thanks for the explanations. I am just trying to figure out why the protestant churches vary from each other as well as being different to the catholic church. I guess there are always differences when things are not scriptural as such. Knowing when the Book of Common prayer was written I am wondering if it had anything to do with marriage within the royal family. They of course often married relatives. ( And their brothers widows)!!!
Perhaps your husband will have more of an idea as to why cousins may be missed off the list from a genetic point of view.
Hope he didnt have too much champagne last night.
Best wishes Linda.
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Perhaps your husband will have more of an idea as to why cousins may be missed off the list from a genetic point of view.
My congratulations as well ;D
If I recall from A level Biology, it's something to do with Mendelian genetics - curly and straight peas, etc. ::)
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I remember Mendels peas. Very interesting. I hope Ramblers husband comes up with the answers, if there are any.
Linda.
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Right!
We inherit half our genes from each parent, but brothers and sisters don't end up with exactly the same mix (apart from identical twins). One generation later, the mix has been further diluted by marriage, but cousins still share more genes than the general population. If there is a genetic problem in the original family, apparently healthy family members may still carry a recessive gene for that problem. When two carriers of a recessive gene marry, there is a high risk of that gene becoming "active" in their children.
According to my husband, any recessive gene in the original family has one chance in 64 of coming out in the children of first cousins. The problem with most recessive genes is that they can't be spotted beforehand.
But this is modern science, and I suppose church and state based their marriage laws on other factors, including keeping money/land in the family, and whether or not it seemed to them that there were more sickly offspring from cousin marriages. In small non-mobile communities, there was so much intermarriage between families, that the gene pool was very small anyway, so the genetic risk of cousin marriage was less evident.
Rambler
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We so much of my family tree all being based in a handful of small villages in Sussex, my only surprise is that I haven't found any intermarriages as yet!!!!!
I do however have two strands of Winchester that I have not been able to link up yet. :)
Kerry :) :) :)
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Although people only recently understood the science behind avoiding close kin marriages, nearly all cultures from earliest times knew it wasn't a good thing. It was common sense to bring in "fresh blood". Sometimes politics overrode that, hence Egyptiam pharaohs marrying their sisters and, more recently, a certain amount of inbreeding in the aristocracy to keep property in the family.
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I do however have two strands of Winchester that I have not been able to link up yet. :)
and I've got two Stokes lines: my grandmother's grt grandmother was a Stokes. Her husband's mother was also a Stokes. Like you, I can't find the connection at the moment - grandad's Stokes line is stymmied by lack of a birth record in 1775 :( But these were small communities.
Gadget
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After the death of my Gr Grandfather, my Gr Grandmother married her first husband's nephew (also her nephew by marriage of course) and this certainly seems to have been frowned upon in the family.
Pinetree
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The 'rules' for Scotland are the same as Northern Ireland
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files/rm1text.pdf
Elaine :)
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Interesting about the adoption restrictions Elaine. Obviously the social coming in as well as the biological.
Gadget
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All very interesting stuff, and I must say that its odd to find non blood relationships disallowed when cousins are allowed to marry, and as you say Gadget, in adoptive relationships.
I asked our Vicar after church today why the rules are different in the Anglican church and she thinks the royal factor of cousins marrying each other may be the answer. If you are founding a new denomination I guess you can make up your own rules.
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Well this isn't inbreeding but it's weird when you try to work it out.
My GG Grandfather married my GG Grandmother. His brother married her sister. So any children they had would have the same 4 grandparents and are technically cousins but would look more like brothers and sisters, and of course they have the same 4 grandparents, and the same ancestry so that would also make them more like brothers and sisters. I'd love to get in touch with someone descended from the other side...
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
I have come across a couple of brothers marrying sisters, they had a double wedding, probably to save money rather than for romantic purposes I suspect.
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We have several in our family too, some fairly recent.
It doesn't help being brought up in the Plymouth Brethren who felt nobody else was worthy!
Kerry
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Ah ha, thats interesting Kerry! What is their tradition on marrying cousins? Do you know?
Linda.
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I'm not really sure but it certainly wasn't forbidden. It seems to have happened quite a lot!
Kerry
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As you say, they are a very exclusive group and perhaps they preferred to keep it that way.
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Sound like Royalty too
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My fathers brother married his 1st cousin ,he got killed in an accident and she then married one of the other brothers ,she had 2 children by her 1st husband and 1 by the second ,unfortunately all the children stuttered some worse than others ,maybe the bloodlines were too close
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Hi rarebit,
I am sure everything is fine if there are no genetic problems but if there are, I guess thats the sort of thing that can happen.
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It was Jones the Search who posted this link recently regarding Prohibited Marriages ;D
http://www.weddingguide.co.uk/articles/legal/prohibited.asp
Taken from a discussion they were having on
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,142518.0.html
Wendi :)
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Thanks for that wendi. I will check it out.
best wishes. Linda.
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It's a pleasure !!
Wendi :)
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It seemed quite the done thing in my family several generations ago for first cousins to marry. I can even cross reference them on the tree. I have also noticed that when a woman died in childbirth it was not unusual for the widowed husband to marry his dead wife's sister. I suppose it would have been better than a "wicked" step-mother for the children as their step-mum would be their natural aunt and would therefore have a vested interest in them.
That said I cannot imagine the thought of marrying any of my brothers in law!!!
Mary.
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i never thought my family tree could look like a circle, who knew?!?!? My family in the US seemed to 'keep it in the family" so to speak (late 1700s, early 1800s) the names on that side just alternate and the women who marry into the family that arent directly related all have the same surname as well!
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I'm not that interested in my dad's side of the family, as I never really knew them but I thought I'd have go. I quickly gave up when I received the certs - far too many Patricks and Whitmores all married to one another. I honestly could not make head nor tail of it - I'm sure some weren't legal or healthy. We all have the correct amount of fingers and toes, which is quite surprising.
I think I will wait until I have some time on my hands, in about thirty years or so, to start researching them again.
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I have also noticed that when a woman died in childbirth it was not unusual for the widowed husband to marry his dead wife's sister.
The topic of widowers marrying their sister-in-law and widow's marrying their brother-in-law was discussed recently on a mail group ...but no conclusive answer was reached.
I've done a little research and it appears that it became illegal under civil law in the UK in the 1800's. Does anyone know what/if the Church of England adjusted their church law?
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Ecclesiastical law has changed a number of times on the point of consanguinity.
Early law restricted marriage to those outside the seventh degree, this was later relaxed to the fourth degree.
The 99th canon of the year 1603 adopted the table set out by Bishop Parker in 1563.
Until the passing of the Act 5&6 Will. IV. ch 54 such marriages were voidable but action had to be taken to render them void and any issue bastards.
After the above act all marriages within the forbidden degrees were void.
Cheers
Guy
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I have one line in my family descended from the Staffords of Eyam, one of their marriages was dissolved on the grounds of consanguinuity, and they were only third cousins!
Bob
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How long ago was that Bob?
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I have just found on my husband's line (not direct). Within a family there were (amongst others) 2 brothers and 1 sister. The sister had (amongst others) 2 daughters. Each of these daughters married a son of each of the mother's brother. Ie first cousins. The strange thing is that these marriages took place in the 1890s and one of the families had moved away from the area a couple of decades before!
On a more medical note. I used to work in the radiology department of the local hospital. We had a lady come in in late pregnancy, whose previous pregnancies had resulted in severely malformed infants that died soon or after birth. This pregnancy did the same. When it was looked into, it was found that her parents were cousins who had married and her husbands parents were also cousins that had married. What compounded the matter was that they were also brothers and sisters. ie 2 sisters married 2 brothers who were also cousins and then arranged a marriage for their offspring. Which resulted in them having a few disastrous pregnancies. Doesn't bear thinking about. This was in the late 1980-1990s
CJ
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It was 1317
See Genuki's Pages on the Staffords of Eyam
http://www.wishful-thinking.org.uk/genuki/DBY/Eyam/Stafford/EyamRichardIV.html
Bob
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I have a few 1st cousins marrying in my line as well
as second cousins.
My Great great Grandfather married twice to
sisters. His first wife died, and supposedly she
asked him to look after her younger sister.
(Think the marriage was before change of law)
The marrying of cousins, I do not think was shunned
in my family, but it was an open secret
(i.e. All the Family knew and approved but they
did not divulged to outsiders)
Some of my Earlier Ancestors were Quakers in
a small community so to marry someone that
was not related probably would not have been
possible. If you married a non quaker you were out.
I know a few Muslims (British) and most marry
1st cousins , that are arranged by their respective
parents. I have had this explained by them and
had different reasons one was to do with sect
i.e. the surname dictates what sect you belong too
so the choice is someone with the same sect
and the other was that a parent when choosing a
partner, chooses someone they know, respect
and can trust to marry their son/daughter.
Many Muslims marry abroad (the marrage is not
recognised in Britain) they then remarry at a
registry office.
Jinks
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Suprised - more horrified!
My Gt Grandparents were first cousins on my fathers side.
I also descend twice from the same Gt Gt Grandfather - cousins marrying again.
On my mothers side - I descend three times from one GT GT GT GT Grandfather - firstly cousins married (two of his sons children respectively) and then their daughter married another one of the sons son. Complicated I know.
And thats just the tip of the iceberg - I have cousins and uncles and aunts all marrying and as you can imagine - i have one of the most confusing trees ever.
Claire
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Thats really confusing for you Claire and I dont envy you a bit. At least I have only found one lot that were cousins. So far. ::)
Linda.
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Hi Leanne
In reply to your query about intermarriage being banned in the 1800's.
In various branches of my family tree I have:-
1897 brother-in-law marrying sister-in-law (no issue though) both on 2nd marriages.
1908 1st cousin once removed marrying 1st cousin once removed.
1920 1st cousin marrying 1st cousin.
1920 1st cousin once removed marrying 1st cousin once removed.
1936 step brother had children with step sister (the law forbade them to marry).
1957 1st cousin marrying 1st cousin.
downside
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My GG Grandfather married my GG Grandmother. His brother married her sister. So any children they had would have the same 4 grandparents and are technically cousins but would look more like brothers and sisters, and of course they have the same 4 grandparents, and the same ancestry so that would also make them more like brothers and sisters. I'd love to get in touch with someone descended from the other side...
Exactly the same happened in my husband's tree!
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It was quite common in Ireland for two brothers to marry two sisters....in fact it still does happen. The children are called double cousins.
Mary.
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I have a few instances of brothers marrying two sisters in my family tree, but stuck in Sussex I guess they didn't have much choice!!!!!
I am just reading a very interesting book called The Kings Two Sisters - Henry VIII's two sisters. It touches on the Arthur/Henry and Katherine thing there, and Henry had to get a special dispensation from the pope to marry Katherine because she had been married to his brother. They had to prove the marriage was unconsumated!
Kerry
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hi yall
Ive recently been contacted by a distant relative who says that there is an instance in his family where 3 brothers and sisters married a father and a son and daughter. STRANGE :o
I got the situation in lancs in the early/mid 1800's where my Hesfords married my Royles who married my Birchalls who married my Hesfords who married Royles who married hesfords that married Royles! Totally confusing but from what I have seen - totally legal :D
Cheers
Jan