Catholic Apostolic Church (Irvingites)

[Gibson1900]

My Gibson family hail from Dumfriesshire and were all members of the Catholic Apostolic Church. The CA Church was very much a product of Dumfriesshire, because it was founded from the teachings of Edward Irving (1792-1834) of Annan. Two of the twelve "apostles" also hailed from the area - Thomas Carlyle (1803-1855) of Annan and William Dow of Irongray.

According to a family legend, my great-great-great grandfather, Alexander Gibson (1805-1878), was involved in the founding of the movement, though I have never found any concrete evidence to support this. His son, Robert Gibson (1846-1901), married Agnes Thomson Lawson (1848-1899) at the Catholic Apostolic Church on Queen Street in Dumfries on 2 November 1868.

All subsequent generations were members of the CA Church until it eventually died out following the death of the last "apostle" in 1901. When Agnes Lawson's youngest brother, Alexander Gibson Lawson (1868-1954) died, he was buried according to the rites of the CA Church, possibly by the very last priest, Wilfred Maynard Davson. His daughter Margaret (Meg) Lawson married Jim Pearson at the CA Church in Dumfries on 5 August 1929.

I would be interested in hearing from anyone whose family were also "Irvingites", especially those who attended the Catholic Apostolic Church on Irish Street and then Queen Street in Dumfries or McAslin Street in Glasgow.

[dsandy]

I believe one of my ancestors, John Edeson, was also a founding member of the Catholic Apostolic Church in Glasgow.  He was certainly a minister in the Church before moving to London (probably in the 1890s).  He was born in Worksop, Nottinghamshire and I believe moved to Glasgow with his parents and siblings circa 1860.

Does anyone know if the Church records still exist and if so where?

[Gibson1900]

Hello, thank you for posting that information, it is very interesting.

I have been searching high and low for records, because there are several blank spots in our family history prior to the introduction of statutory state records in 1855. Because our family records before then were probably made at the CA Church, they are unfortunately now missing from the records, even though they must have been recorded and may well be out there somewhere! Ironically, we have more complete records for the start of the 19th century, but not for later, following the launch of the CAC.

Here is some of the correspondence I have been involved in:

Dear Sir/Madam
I believe you hold records for non-established churches in Dumfries. I am engaged in family-history research and am interested in locating the birth, marriage and death records of the Catholic Apostolic Church (“Irvingites”) in Dumfries, which functioned over a hundred-year period from approximately the 1830s to 1930.
Do you hold the records of the local Catholic Apostolic Church or, if not, do you perhaps have any idea where they ended up after the church disbanded in the 1920s?
Mr NAME

The ARCHIVE CENTRE
33 Burns Street
Dumfries
DG1 2PS
Tel: 01387 269254
Fax: 01387 264126
Email: libarchive[at]dumgal.gov.uk (replace [at] with @)

REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, DEATHS and MARRIAGES
Dumfries Municipal Chambers
Buccleuch Street
Dumfries
DG1 2AD
Tel:01387245906
Tel 01387245907
Fax: 01387269605
Email: isabeld[at]dumgal.gov.uk (replace [at] with @)

Dear Mr NAME
Thank you for your enquiry regarding the Catholic Apostolic Church
records from 1830 - 1930.
I have made enquiries with our local Archive Centre and they inform me
that they have already checked for these records and have not been able
to find where they are kept. They say they are definitely not in the
National Archives, and wonder if they may be held somewhere in London,
due to the fact that the church has not existed for such a long time.
I am sorry I cannot be helpful in this matter, but wish you well in your
continued search.
Yours sincerely
Isabel Davidson
Area Registrar, Registration Services
Community and Support Services
Dumfries and Galloway Council
Internal: 63359
External: 01387 245909
Fax: 01387 245907 (Internal 63357)
Drop Point: 274
Email: Isabel.Davidson[at]dumgal.gov.uk (replace [at] with @)

Dear Mr NAME
It was the Archivist who mentioned London to me as a possibility. If you have an address for the Church in London I would try that first. If not the National Records Office would be my next try. Any records in Scotland which do not have a ‘home’ seem to end up in the National Records Office or Archive. I am sorry I cannot be of any more use in this matter, it can be frustrating trying to track down some of the rarer records.
Regards
Isabel

From Records[at]gro-scotland.gsi.gov.uk (replace [at] with @)

Dear Mr NAME
I am not sure of national archives records to be certain I am afraid - you could check directly with them at www.nas.gov.uk - it is certainly not records that we would keep here.
Christine

[Gibson1900]

Dear Mr NAME
Thank you for your enquiry of 13 August concerning your family history which has been passed to us from the National Register of Archives for Scotland (NRAS).
Although we do have some miscellaneous papers relating to the Catholic Apostolic Church, these do not include anything relating to Dumfries. You can find out more about our holdings by searching our electronic catalogue online at http://www.nas.gov.uk (also try the catalogue of the NRAS here and try the catalogue of the Scottish Archive Network (SCAN) at http://www.scan.org.uk/catalogue/ which provides access to collection descriptions of over 50 Scottish archives).
I regret that the only decent source of information I have found on the history of the church is the Wikipedia entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Apostolic_Church. Perhaps some of the websites or publications linked from the bottom of this entry can provide further information about records of the Dumfries church.
I am sure that you are probably already aware that statutory registration of births, marriages and deaths was introduced in Scotland in 1855. These records are searchable online on the official government website at http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and so you should be able to find the records in which you are interested on this website.
I hope that this information is of some assistance to you.
Yours sincerely
JOANNA O’ROURKE
Search Room Archivist
Historical Search Room
National Archives of Scotland
HM General Register House
2 Princes Street
Edinburgh
EH1 3YY
mailto:enquiries[at]nas.gov.uk
telephone number: 0131 535 1334
fax number: 0131 535 1328
web site: http://www.nas.gov.uk/

Dear Mr NAME
We do not hold the records of this congregation nor do they seem to be in the National Archives either who hold most of the seceding church records. They may still be in private hands. The church was initially located in Irish Street and then in Queen Street, Dumfries.
All birth, marriage and death records irrespective of congregation from 1855 onwards in Scotland can be searched on-line at the Registrar General’s site www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk.
We also have our local newspaper the Dumfries & Galloway Standard indexed from 1777 to 1930 so you may be able to pick up some family members that way.
If you would like any further help with research you can contact our researcher Mrs Erica Johnson at Erica J[at]dumgal.gov.uk who would be happy to give you a quotation.
Cathy Gibb
Library Assistant
Dumfries and Galloway Libraries, Information and Archives
Dumfries & Galloway Council
Community and Support Services
Dumfries Archive Centre, 33 Burns Street, Dumfries, DG1 2PS
Tel 01387 269 254
Fax 01387 264 126
Drop point 264
web: www.dumgal.gov.uk.lia
e-mail: libarchive[at]dumgal.gov.uk
(replace [at] with @)

I have heard that the records may still be held at the former CA Church on Gordon Square in London. My aunt works nearby and went round recently to the "Bloomsbury Cathedral," but it was not open.

On one positive note: CAC records for Cambridge supposedly exist on microfilm for baptisms 1834-40 and reside at the Cambridge Record Office.

On some old family documents, we have a list of the officating ministers at the baptisms of various children in the 1870s and 1880s in Dumfries CA Church - William Wells, James Marr, Henry S Whyte, Thomas Hoggarth. My GG grandfather and grandmother were married at Dumfries CAC in 1868 by Robert Craig.

[dsandy]

Thank you for your very full and informative reply to my post.

I have one small further piece of information that may be of interest.   When the Church at Gordon Square, London was sold to the University of London, much of its library was acquired by the Bodelian Library which has recently relocated to a new facility in Swindon.  I don't know whether there are any CAC records included in the library.

(I attended the Church at Gordon Square until I was eight years old and my parents moved to Surrey).

[michellematthews12]

I have only just come across your thread about records for the CA Church. I fear you will find it quite hard to find any - as far as I am aware there is no website devoted to the church and its records. They do hold their history rather close to their chests, I'm afraid! My grandfather Anton Capadose (1874 - 1952) was priest at the CA Church in Gordon Square in London and a few years ago I visited there as I was in the area, and spoke to the Secretary of the Trustees whose office is there. You could try contacting him (if he is still in post). The details I have for him are as follows:

A.J. Reynoldson
Secretary to Trustees
2 The Cloisters
Gordon Square
London WC1 0AG

Phone: 0207 387 3005
Email: tonyreynoldson[replace with 'at' sybol]btinternet.com

As I say, these details are a few years old now, but I hope you can still get hold of someone connected with the Church who can help you.

[PeterWebster]

I have been researching my family and have just found a 1881 census entry with my second cousin twice removed Rachael Webster (Born 1853 in Glasgow) living with her three siblings and John Edeson at 251 Renfrew St, Glasgow Barony, Lanarkshire. John and Rachael are recorded as husband & wife without children and his occupation is Minister In Catholic Apostolic Church. I have yet to look for marriages etc.

I can take this Webster line back to 1740 and its all on Ancestry

[imchad]

There is quite a good book on Edward Irving and the Irvinites. I can't remember the name off-hand but the Ewart Library in Dumfries and the public library in Annan both hold copies.

Ian

[greensteam]

Coming very late to this useful thread.
I am interested due to my research into Dorothee Pullinger, an early female automobile engineer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doroth%C3%A9e_Pullinger

Her family were in the CA and she married in October 1924, in the CA church in Dumfries, now long gone, I gather.