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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: garagecollective on Thursday 21 October 10 23:51 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
First time poster. I'm researching early anarchism in NZ (1890-1920) and need some help!
Philip Josephs was a Russian born Jew who started New Zealand's first anarchist collective in Wellington, 1913. Throughout the First World War his mail was censored and his office raided by Police in 1915 (I have Police files from Archives NZ). I would like to know more about his arrival to NZ, and even contact his living relatives. This is what I already know:
He was Naturalised in 1921 (NZer's Naturalised pre 1948). From this I know that he was born in Libau, Russia. His age is given as 44, making his birth date 1877.
He lived in Wellington, worked as a Tailor from 1906 to 1917 (Wises Street Directory & Papers Past). Not listed in 1918 but back in 1919. All records of him in Wises end in 1922.
Rumor has it he skipped the country in 1917 to visit Russia. He may have gone back there in 1922/23...
What I would love to know is:
a) how Russian's predominately came to NZ. Was it via the UK? Are there shipping records for Russians arriving in NZ?
b) any records of Josephs arrivals or departures. There is evidence of him speaking at meetings in 1906.
c) links to his family today.
His name is spelt 'Josephs' with the 's', not 'Joseph' if this helps.
Look forward to any advice people can give me! Learning this as I go along so bear with me.
Jared
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Hi Garagecollective
Have you seen this http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19080903.2.48&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2phillip+josephs--
seems he may have gone bankrupt. I haven't found anything on the NZSG index for him. I didn't find an entry for him at petone settlers Museum database.
Nothing burial information on here either http://www.wellington.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/search/search.php
lil
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Hi Jared,Welcome to Roots chat
Here is a Papers past 1905 article
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a5d/
Cheers Janette
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Hi Jared,
it appears he may have had 2 children
1906 Albert Josephs to Sophia and Philip
1909 Harold Josephs to Sophia and Philip
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2fqueryEntry.m%3ftype%3dbirths
Cheers Janette
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He may have come via England or america..will look at some shipping sites
Bye
Althea
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1911 Albert Josephs schooling at Johnsonville,
1916 Thorndon, 1917 Bunnythorpe, 1919 Sanson
So that may help tracking movement in more detail
Bye
Althea
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Appears to be older children than the 2 given above
Oldest is Jennie born 1898, so finding her birth may give you more info on family before NZ
Doesn't appear to be in the NZ birth list
Bye
Althea
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Thanks everyone for your efforts.
Lil Growler: thanks for that. I've already seen that before (isn't Papers Past awesome).
Janette and Althea: Likewise, I'd seen that article, but I hadn't been able to find anything on his children. After his house in Khandallah and workshop on Cuba Street was raided in 1915, he moved to Hawkestone Crescent. He then disappears, re-emerging as a farmer in Bunnythorpe (which matches the records you found).
Any other suggestions for research? I doubt he was on the electoral role as he was an anarchist. I wonder where and when he died?
A sincere thank you! Once my paper is published I'll be sure to let you all know. Otherwise you can check out the Labour History Project that I design for: www.lhp.org.nz (http://www.lhp.org.nz)
Jared
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Jared
Yes, Papers is a great site, isn't it.
Have you seen this http://www.takver.com/history/nz/tm/tm07.htm It suggests that Phillip may have gone back to Russia for a short spell and returned again to NZ.
lil
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Yes that's what got me interested in him a few years back. Frank, the author, is a nice guy and I've been in correspondence with him about Josephs.
Jared
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Cool :) not having a lot of luck finding a death for him here.
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And I'm no expert in the Russian language.... ;)
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I don't see deaths for Albert , Harold or their mother Sophia either,could they have left NZ
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I didn't find any, for any of them either Janette. Nothing on Archway but for a Harold Joseph's but all with middle names, so not sure.
A new twist maybe.
On Ancestry trees I found an Albert Josephs b 1907 Wellington , father Phillip Josephs, no mother mentioned.
Albert married in 1936 NSW to a Thyra Marea A Young.
Albert died NSW 1963 killara Hospital.
I've had a look on historical BMD's for other Albert's, with father Phillip, there appears to be only the one Janette found. However I don't think BMD's are complete.
Wonder if it's worth heading to Aussie ;D
lil
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They are not on the 1911 electoral roll
wonder if he enrolled on the war census...I can't access it on this pc unfortunately, will check am if someone doesn't do it sooner
Son Albert is still in NZ 1922 as hes listed as a scholar in the NZ Gazettes
Sophia is a shopkeeper in Sanson 1919
Bye
Althea
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Gidday Jared, and welcome to Rootschat and the NZ Board.
I've found a few more children, I think, although the dates of birth aren't consistent:
School Roll.
Frances JOSEPHS, DOB 17 April 1899.
School, Te Aro, admitted 19 June 1905.
Parent was Philip JOSEPHS of 46 Taranaki Street.
Last school was Mitchelltown.
Last day 19 June 1908,
Destination Johnsonville (School).
School Roll.
Jennie JOSEPHS, DOB 24 May 1898.
School, Te Aro, admitted 19 June 1905.
Parent was Philip JOSEPHS of 46 Taranaki Street.
Last school was Mitchelltown.
Last day 19 June 1908,
Destination Johnsonville (School).
School Roll.
Jessie JOSEPHS, DOB 11 March 1901.
School, Te Aro, admitted 5 March 1906.
Parent was Philip JOSEPHS of 64 Taranaki Street.
Last school, -
Last day 19 June 1908,
Destination Johnsonville (School).
School Roll.
Rose JOSEPHS, DOB 3 September 1902.
School, Te Aro, admitted 3 February 1908.
Parent was Philip JOSEPHS of 67 Taranaki Street.
Last school -
Last day -
Destination –
School Roll.
Jennie JOSEPHS, DOB 28 May 1898.
School, Johnsonville, admitted 22 June 1908.
Parent was Mr Philip JOSEPHS, address not given
Last school was Te Aro.
Last day, 13 December 1911
Destination, Normal School.
School Roll.
Jessie JOSEPHS, DOB 15 June 1901.
School, Johnsonville, admitted 22 June 1908.
Parent was Mr Philip JOSEPHS, address not given
Last school was Te Aro.
Last day, 16 December 1912,
Destination, Normal School.
School Roll.
Rose JOSEPHS, DOB 14 September 1902.
School, Johnsonville, admitted 22 June 1908.
Parent was Mr Philip JOSEPHS, address not given
Last School -.
Last day, 21 February 1913,
Destination, Khandallah (School?)
School Roll.
Fanny JOSEPHS, DOB 28 September 1899.
School, Johnsonville, admitted 22 June 1908.
Parent was Mr Philip JOSEPHS, address not given
Last School Te Aro.
Last day, 13 December 1911
Destination, Technical S
School Roll.
Lulu Louisa JOSEPHS, DOB 14 September 1904.
School, Johnsonville, admitted 9 December 1909.
Parent was Mr Philip JOSEPHS, address Johnsonville
Last School Te Aro.
Last day, 21 February 1913
Destination, Khandallah (School?)
Hope this helps.
Regards, rileyaceofspades
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...and there is a reference to a Philip JOSEPHS in the 1911 Gazette, p.3433.
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...and here's Albert. Note the date of birth is 1906, not 1907 as given by a previous poster. Again, confirm it.
School Roll.
Albert JOSEPHS, DOB 28 May 1906.
School, Johnsonville, admitted 11 September 1911.
Parent was Mr Philip JOSEPHS, address Johnsonville
Last School -
Last day, 21 February 1913
Destination, Khandallah (School?)
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The ancestry date I gave 1907, isn't sourced.
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1904 arrival given into Australia
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/35793865?searchTerm=%22philip+josephs%22
Cite: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article35793865
Examiner (Launceston, Tas. : 1900-1954) Tues 4 March 1904
Bye
Althea
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Any chatters got a $$ to GRU
there are family of Albert's there..could you alert them to this thread if poss
Bye
Althea
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Any chatters got a $$ to GRU
there are family of Albert's there..could you alert them to this thread if poss
Bye
Althea
Done,
Cheers Janette
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Amazing stuff, thank you.
How was the school information found? Is it online? I'd like to be able to do it myself in the future, if someone could let me know how to.
Also, is the Gazette online? I've always had to view it at the Library.
Lastly, were only property owners listed in Wises? Could this explain the gaps, if he no longer owned the house he was living in?
Oh, and what's GRU?
Again, a big thanks to everyone for pointing me in the right direction and finding this info. A virtual beer to everyone on here...
Jared
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PM sent ,Jared
Cheers Janette
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If you are in a major city you will find many of these resources in the family history part of the Library
NZSG INdex CD has school records.
Libraries/Genealogy centres in local areas have the original school records plus at archives New Zealand outlets around NZ main centres.
Gazettes held at many main libraries.
Gazettes available for purchase online at some genealogy stores.
If in Auckland, Panmure NZSG Library and Auckland Central are great places to access info in person.
Bye
Althea
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Re the Wises, people paid to go in that, didn't have to be property owners
Have you looked for them in Electroal Rolls? they are not in 1911 and Philip is not in the 1915 War Census, but worth trying some other years. Your library may have these on fiche.
No record of them in the 1926 Wises Directory
Bye
Althea
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Have you looked for them in Electroal Rolls?
Not yet, only Naturalised Aliens Pre 1948, and Wises. I'm in Christchurch which has all the info there, so I'll pop in. I hadn't thought of school records...
Jared
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Hi Jared,
Many School Admission Registers were transcribed by local branches of the NZ Society of Genealogists but I don't know if they hold further information.
What religion was Philip? Have you tried the archives of his local church denominations, including Russian Orthodox (anarchist perhaps, but he or his family might have maintained links).
It might be worth checking to see if he ever divorced.
riley
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Hi again Jared,
I have just sent a message to two JOSEPHS family researchers on Genes Reunited and directed them to this post.
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How do I check for divorces? Microfiche?
Thanks for notifying the family researchers as well. I'm happy to be emailed if need be.
Jared
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Just a warning not to post your email address here. Use the Personal Message (PM) system by clicking on a users name.
Have you looked on Archway for him? There might be a divorce record although not everything is indexed or on Archway.
By the way, I can't see a NZ marriage for him. Do you have any record of one here or overseas?
riley
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Interesting...I can't see a NZ marriage for any of the children.
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Odd isn't it, did they all just leave, or ??alter name
It will be interesting to see what those researchers say..hope they make contact.
I only managed to get some names in some US census but stopped hunting as thought I was off on wrong tangent. Will wait patiently..
How we love a hunt
They were obviously achievers witht he scholar mentions etc.. so strange to just disappear.
Bye
Althea
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A year before the commencement of The Great War...would that be a factor?
I can't see any of the boys on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission database. Philip would have been too old.
riley
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Yes Archways produced a file of Censored Correspondence of which I have in possession.
Josephs was a tailor, but also sold and distributed anarchist and IWW literature from his shop. After militant labour and the IWW was smashed in the Great Strike of 1913 things went quiet, although Josephs still distributed literature. War Regulations in 1914 prevented this distribution, and in 1915 the Police raided his home and workshop. From then on his correspondence was censored.
I'd imagine this wouldn't have been a very good climate to operate in, so he may have skipped town in 1917, reappearing in 1919 as a farmer. He then naturalised in 1921. However being Russian, the 'Red Scares' around the 20's may have forced the Josephs to move offshore, to Aussie or back to Russia. That's where it gets interesting!
Jared
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Hi all, found this and details seem to fit with the info already found.
1901 census SCOTLAND
32 McKinlay Street, Gorbals, Glasgow
Philip Joseph, head, b. 1877 Whithorn, Russia, Tailor
Sophia Joseph, wife, b. 1877 Whithorn, Russia
Jeannie Joseph, daur, b. 1898 Glasgow
Fanny Joseph, daur, b. 1899 Glasgow
What do you think?
Jool
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Hi Jool,
That looks very much like them,well done
Cheers Janette
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Excellent Jool
He certainly moved around a bit. Good work!
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Wow Jool, that's great, thanks. Can you point out where you found that, for a beginner such as me?
Also, how would I find Scottish/UK passenger lists? I'd love to nail when he left Russia... Between 1877 and 1901 obviously...
Jared
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Hi Jared, I found this on Ancestry.co.uk. I'm just looking to see if there are any passenger lists for them.
Jool
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lol I just edited my previous message asking for that, thanks!
I wonder what their names in Russian would have been... I'd say they've been modified.
Jared
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Hi Jared, Philip and Sophia must have arrived in Glasgow before 1898 as Jennie (Jeannie) was born there.
Not sure what info is available on passenger lists from Russia to UK, maybe someone can advise.
I am looking to see if I can find when they left U.K., on Ancestry.
Jool
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Fantastic work, Jool, you've cracked it!
riley
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When was the next Scottish Census? Josephs appears to be in Australia in 1904. He arrived on the "Prinz Regent Luilpold, so must have been between these two dates.
Found this, could be the boat: http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=prilu
Jared
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According to this site Prinzregent Luilpold arrived in Fremantle on Feb 15, 1904. Not listed in 1903.
http://www.ozships.net/ozships/
Jared
Edit: this is wrong! See later comments
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Found the passenger list ;D
New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Port of Departure: Bremen
Port of arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Prinz Regent Luitpold
26 Feb 1904
Mr. Philipp Josephs, Russian
Travelling with him, Sophia, Jeannie, Fanny, Jessie, Rosie.
Jool
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Jool you beaut!
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Jared
use that beta aus newspaper site I first gave you if you want to just browse the newspapers around February to see about the ship,
Do you realise with this forum there are different forums for different countries and counties of england so go to
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php main page and it may pay to make some postings Scotland and Europe
just add a copy of the webaddress for this NZ thread so people can see what work has already been done
Bye
Althea
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Thanks I will do that.
Jared
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Hi Jool,
I don't have access to Ancestry at the moment.
Can you please post here the image from the 1901 Scotland census with just the name of the city "Whithorn, Russia" ?
Mike
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I've posted in the Scottish section here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,491040.0.html
Has returned some more details others may be interested in seeing, such as marriage records.
Jared
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Can you please post here the image from the 1901 Scotland census with just the name of the city "Whithorn, Russia" ?
Hi Mike, Unfortunately there are no original images for Scottish census records on Ancestry, just a transcript, so Whithorn may have been mistranscribed or misunderstood by the enumerator. I have googled Whithorn and come up with nothing in Russia.
According to the Naturalisation record Jared found, he was born in Libau (which was also known as Liepaja, but this doesn't sound much like Whithorn either).
Jool
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Hi Jool,
That's why I asked for original image. Whithorn is not a Russian name. It can be Whitehorn (direct translation from Russian into English), but also no such settlement in Russia.
As for Philip's birth - according to Jared he was born Libau (Liepaja in Latvia today), in other source I have seen "near Odessa" - Ukraine today. But also this Whithorn - I cannot find Russian equivalent.
Mike
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If we could locate Josephs' arrival in Scotland, we may be able to trace back yeah?
Jared
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Hi Jared
the scottish board would know best about this.
Maybe immigration was less formalised because of the closeness to Europe...like some of my Irish who go back and forth to Scotland..no records.
You have achieved alot
What about on specialist Russian genie sites..a google will find some
Bye
Althea
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Hi Jared,
Would you like me to move this topic to the Scotland Board to see if anyone can help? This would save you telling the story anew.
Regards,
riley
Moderator, NZ Board
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I've posted there in one of the County sections... maybe it's ok to leave it here.
Thanks though,
Jared
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Hi Jared
there probably isn't anthing more from a NZ angle is there?
is the thread complete?
Bye
althea
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Yes, I'd agree with you there. Unless we figure out when they left NZ, but it seems that would fall into Australian waters... so yep, complete :)
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Hi Jared,
This is a fascinating story. I was wondering if could you explain the definition of 'anarchist' as it related to Philip Joseph's political philosophy in context of the late 1890-1910's. What were the goals of such individuals?
And I think most of us would love to know the ending of Philip Joseph's story once you find out.
Regards, and good hunting,
rileyaceofspades.
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Good question! I'll try and explain some of the lingo, and then relate it to Josephs.
Anarchism is the belief that no one should have the power to control or exploit another. Within anarchist thought there are variations, from the individualist who believes in complete freedom (from both society and obligation), to what is called 'social anarchists' — anarchists who would be considered socialists (collective ownership of resources etc). What makes a social anarchist different from a socialist is her/his belief that hierarchy, as well as Capitalism, is oppressive. In this sense, social anarchists refute the need for a state or any kind of government (including a Communist State such as Russia, China or Cuba). Instead, the principles of bottom-up decision making (direct democracy), the freedom to work and live collectively (free association) and self-organisation on a grassroots level is paramount. The state would be replaced by free units of workers (producers) and communities (consumers), joined together (federated) through delegates, answerable to the community from which they came, and recallable at any time.
Josephs falls into this camp. The literature he distributed, the talks he gave as part of the New Zealand Socialist Party's economic classes, and the nature of the group he helped found seem to indicate this. In 1906 at a May Day celebration, Josephs moved:
"that this meeting sends it fraternal greetings to our comrades engaged in the universal class war, and pledges itself to work for the abolition of the capitalistic system and the substitution in New Zealand of a co-operative commonwealth, founded on the collective of the land and the means of production and distribution." (Evening Post, May 7, 1906).
In another talk he decried the fact that anarchism was misunderstood and associated with violence.
So it seems Jospehs worked with and in the New Zealand labour movement during it's most turbulent years (the Blackball Strike of 1908, the Waihi Strike of 1912 and the Great Strike of 1913). The 'Freedom Group' which he co-founded was formed around the 1913 strike, and while that lasted about a year, Josephs continued distributing books and literature throughout the First World War.
However by this time the climate for radicals was far from peachy. In October 1915 the military Censor in charge of monitoring correspondence noticed Josephs was receiving anarchist mail from the USA. On his advice, and the opinion of Sir John Salmond (Solicitor-General of NZ), further correspondence was censored, his offices raided and the names of other anarchists were found.
Rootschat and all you wonderful people on it has helped me pinpoint when he arrived in New Zealand, where he was before that, and given me names of his family (and more). This kind of information will help me as I try to understand what made Josephs an anarchist, when he became radicalised, and what happened to him from the 1920's onwards. Well, hopefully!
Jared Davidson
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I've just spotted a Tree on Ancestry which includes Philip Josephs, it states he died in Katoomba, New South Wales but no year listed. His wife Sophia (Heller) Josephs' death is listed as Australia, again no date.
Now here's where you may be able to contact a living relative...
The tree goes down through his daughter Jeannie, her death is shown as 6 Feb 1970 Hamilton, New Zealand. Her husband was Waddington Hansen Garvey, b. 10 April 1879 Waikaia, Southland, New Zealand and he died Oct 1972 Hamilton, New Zealand. There are 3 "living" Garvey children listed, obviously no details as they are still living.
There are no sources for the above information so I can't guarantee the accuracy. The only "sourced" info is the 1901 Scotland census, which by coincidence they saved to their tree only yesterday so they are currently working on this family.
Jared, would you like me to contact the tree owner and direct them to this thread, or maybe give them your e-mail address?
Jool
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Jool, please do, that would be amazing! NSW is where his son died.
Thanks again, you're very good at this!
Jared
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James R Hill Funeral Directors did both funerals for Jeannie and her husband,Waddington
http://web.hcc.govt.nz/jsplive/assure32_det.jsp
they are still in business and an email may give you the children's names
http://www.jamesrhill.co.nz/contactus.htm
That might be anothe way of finding living rellies
Cheers Janette
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Hi Jared, I've sent a message to the tree owner giving them your e-mail address and directing them to this thread - let's hope they make contact.
Well done Janette, I knew it wouldn't be long before someone started to confirm the information :)
Jool
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You all continue to amaze, thank you. Hope my wee bio on Josephs above was interesting for you all.
Jared
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Jared, your bio is fascinating, and very well written
Jool
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This looks like a possible for a daughter of Jeannie & Waddington Garvey, from IGI http://www.familysearch.org, Record is not sourced.
Roberta Agnes Waddington Garvey
b. 18 Feb 1919 Waikaia, Otago, New Zealand
d. 16 Nov 1996
Marriage 15 Oct 1960 Auckland to
Eric Christopher Farley
b. 5 Aug 1917 Kaupokonui, Taranaki, New Zealand
d. 14 Aug 1983
Perhaps someone with access to NZ records could check this one :)
Jool
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There are some Garveys, with Waddington in name on Memorytree notices
http://www.amemorytree.co.nz/remembrance.php?personid=105976
Bye
Althea
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Eric Farley has a notice in
Southland Times Deaths
Name FARLEY Eric Christopher
Date 14 Aug 1983
Surname FARLEY
Forenames Eric Christopher
Page 0833
Bye
Althea
and Robertas is in 15 Nov 1995, Page 228
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Burial locator has the above Farley family at
Waiau Pa (NZL00263)
Ref: NZSG code: B05.25
Location: Seagrove Rd, Waiau Pa
Council: Franklin
Province: Auckland
Administration: Public
Bye
Althea
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There are some Garveys, with Waddington in name on Memorytree notices
http://www.amemorytree.co.nz/remembrance.php?personid=105976
Godfrey Sherbrook Waddington Garvey in this link was on the family tree on Ancestry 1912-2010, the son of Waddington Hanson Garvey and "No Spouse" along with a sister Peggy.
Jool
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School Record for Roberta, Waikaka 1924, registration 1211
South Taranki Index for Eric Christopher Farley, 5 Aug 1917, Manaia, refernce M82/17. Parents C & L Farley.
Land Application for Eric 5 Feb 1951, Cert NO: 3303, Archives BAIE 1836/8g Auckland Archives.
lil
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I have just had a reply from the lady on GR and she has a connection with Philip and Sophia,I have told her how to find the thread as she was having difficulty,
Cheers Janette
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I don't know about everyone else but I'm dying to find out the end of Philip's story.
Spades
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NZSG
BNZ,BNZSW Signatories-Bulls, Wanganui
Josephs P, July 25 1919, Joesphs Sophia, storekeeper, Sanson - BNZa/c July 25 1919 (signed P Josephs)
it says that this information is in the BNZ Archives. I have no idea if anyone has tried to apply for information from BNZ before.
It would be quite nice to see his signature
lil
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Here is the BNZ museum link
http://www.bnz.co.nz/about-us/history/bnz-museum
Cheers Janette
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Can you please let me know what NZSG stands for?
On another note, I have been contacted by a living relative of Josephs, which is just amazing really. Still don't know what it will lead to, but I just want to thank everyone on this board — you've all been so helpful, patient and thorough.
A poster on the Scottish thread has also sent me information, which is also amazing.
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New Zealand Society of Genealogists
It is like a serial"look for the next exciting episode"
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Hi Jared,
I have received a reply from a lady who has a family tree on GR and is a descendant of Albert Josephs (I don't know if she is the same person mentioned by Janette). I will send you a PM with her message and email address.
Spades
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Ok folks, new information! I've been sent Josephs' Australian Naturalisation files by a fellow anarchist researcher, who by chance, happened to come across his name as he was researching someone else.
As we know, he was born in Liepaja (Libau, Latvia), but we now have an exact date: 25 November 1876. Father Simon Josephs. Arrived in Australia (Sydney) 2 October 1921, after spending 7 years in Scotland (Glasgow) and 19 years in New Zealand (Wellington), and applied in 1926 (when he was 49) for Australian naturalisation.
It also lists his 8 children and includes a letter of application.
Now what I am confused on is that he writes he was in NZ for 19 years (up to 1921). That would mean he arrived in NZ in 1902. But we have Australian shipping records for 1904... could he have lied to make it seem he was here longer? Or maybe a simple mistake? The other option is that he travelled back and forth?
Anyway, the plot thickens!
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Its nly a couple of years out, depending on the month and who calculates small discepancies are quite normal
Also people did travel backwards and forwards...often seem more mobile that what we are today, with more opportunities..supposedly!!!!
Great news on birthdate ;D
Bye
Althea
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who by chance, happened to come across his name as he was researching someone else.
As we know, he was born in Liepaja (Libau, Latvia), but we now have an exact date: 25 November 1876. Father Simon Josephs.
There is only Leongard RAPEPORT (born to Joseph Rapeport ) on 28 November 1876 in Libau
No other Jewish boy born in November 1876 whose father's name was Simon or Josephs
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The date is given by Jospehs himself, could be a year out? I originally thought 1877... due to his NZ naturalisation info
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Hi Jared,
Just wondering if you've made any progress with Philip JOSEPHS or his descendants?
We're dying to hear the end of the story.
Spades
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Hi Spades,
I spoke to his grandaughter not too long ago! She's going to get in touch again once the holiday's are over, but apparently there are photographs and other items in the family that she is finding for me.
She filled in a few gaps, such as his move to Scotland from Latvia with friends and family, and his later years in Australia.
Definitely wouldn't have ever met her if it wasn't for all the hard work of the posters here, so a huge thank you! Once I have some kind of tangible paper/end result I'll be sure to post it here for everybody's interest. A related paper on the ashes of Joe Hill that mentions Josephs is going to be published as a book this year by Rebel Press, so I'm pretty excited.
Thanks again folks :)
PS if anyone is interested in the radical history of Aotearoa, please check out my website 'Red Ruffians', an online archive of writings and other tid bits: http://redruffians.tumblr.com/
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Thanks very much for letting us know, Jared, it was a fascinating hunt and we await the final chapter with anticipation.
Spades
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Hi everyone,
Been busy dodging rubble in Christchurch, but my research on Philip Josephs is coming along. Have made contact with more grandchildren which has been really nice.
Here's a general question for you all: How long would it have taken to get from Bremen to Sydney in 1904? Assuming they stay on one boat that is representative of the times....
Jared
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Hi Jared, welcome back.
The sailing ships of the 1800's took on average between 90-105 days, so the steamers of 1905 probably took perhaps six weeks.
I'm happy to be corrected, it's only an uneducated guess. ;)
Spades
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Re Bremen to Sydney 1904
Six weeks seems right to me too ...
One way to check would be to go to digitised newspapers website and search for Bremen in the Sydney Morning Herald for 1904 ... and you can restrict the search to a particular date, or even a month...
here's one example http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14614310
SMH 19 April 1904 ...
A vessel left Bremen for Sydney 24 Feb 1904, came via the Suez, first Aussie port was Fremantle... But there's lots of ports mentioned, Antwerp, Southampton, Genoa, Naples, Port Said, Aden, Colombo etc...
http://trove.nla.gov.au/
Cheers, JM
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Hi I am the great-grandaughter of Philip Josephs!! ;D
This is amazing to read!My mums mother Edith Josephs was Philip Josephs youngest daughter and was born in Wellington.My mum was told that they left to go to Australia because he got in debt due to gambling!He used to like playing cards!They went to Australia when Edith was about 9 years old.They located to Sydney. Harold(one of his sons) had a very successful taxi business in Sydney. Albert was a diving judge and died in his late 50's of a very rare lung cancer.Lulu ran away to the circus and was married a few times. Jesse was a teacher in Australia and never married. My mum (*)has a older brother (*)
. We live in Auckland. Edith ended up coming back to NZ beacuse of her husbands work. We know Sophia had VERY broken english and made Edith go to eloqution lessons. So this has been a suprising and extremely interesting read!!!He sounds like he had a interesting life!!My mum's dad Edmund Bourke was catholic and Edith Josephs was jewish and this casued a bit of conflict between the families.We do have some very old photo's of Edith and some siblings and one or two of Philip and Sophia. I have been really interested in the family backround for a while and didn't know any of this about him!!Thank you so much and I hope this help you with a little bit more information on Philip! :)
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Hi Stacey,
Welcome to RChat .... I believe it is the best place for family history searchings.
This is so exciting to read ....
I don't want you to panic or disappear, but I am going to ask one of the Moderators to come across and help you to remove the names of anyone who is living, so that their privacy is respected.
Many Cheers, JM
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Hi Stacey, and a warm welcome to RootsChat and the New Zealand Board,
This has been a fascinating story and we're all very pleased a Josephs descendant has found it.
I have edited your post to remove names of living persons. My apologies if it looks a bit strange as a consequence.
Spades
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Thanks yes thats fine! :)
I found the newspaper article on him(It's just from the internet)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NA19040324.2.11.9&l=mi&e=-------10--1----0--
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Hi, I am the son of Edith his youngest daughter. I can confirm he had 8 children. Four were born in Scotland and 4 in NZ. They were Jean, Francis (who I believe died very young) Jessie, Rosie, Lulu, Albert, Harold and Edith in that order. They emigrated to Australia when my mother was about 10yrs old but Jean stayed in NZ as I assume she was married to uncle Waddie as we knew him by then. My sister and I only ever met Jean, Jessie and Harold. Jean lived in Hamilton and had 3 children (2 girls and a son) The 2 girls are still alive and live in Auckland and Tauranga but the son has vanished and has had no contact with his family for years. Jeans eldest daughter is a wealth of information on the family. She is now 89yrs old and doesn't use a computer but I think my niece Stacey is going to try and record some of her memoirs to post here in the hope it helps. All the family apart from My mum Edith and Aunty Jean remained in Australia as far as I know and that is where they all passed away so any research into their deaths is probably best directed there. An ANARCHIST!!!!! We had no idea. What a Surprise/Shock.
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Hi MX5er, and welcome to RootsChat.
I think Jared, the original poster and the researcher interested in New Zealand anarchists, will be very keen to see what information you have (as will we, of course).
It sounds as though Josephs had a very interesting life. The article discovered by Stacey above is quite illuminating regarding his attitudes. His accented English even comes though in what must have been a verbatim quote.
Spades
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Hi Stacey and MX5er!
I'm glad you have both found this thread. I've been chatting to that wonderful 89 year old about your family and she's been very helpful. I'm also corresponding with Harold's daughter, who is based in Australia (I can give you more information if you would like to contact me privately).
Stacey: I have the many newspaper articles that mention Philip from Papers Past compiled. I'd be happy to send you or MX5er everything I have. Again, please contact me. And of course I'd love to see more pics! I'm based in Christchurch so I'm happy to ring you both, or email.
Your family, and Philip, are certainly fascinating, and I'm so pleased the good folks of Rootschat have enabled us to discover more about it.
Look forward to talking to you both,
Jared
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One story I was told was that the family was very musical. The children of Philip and Sophia once wandered into a church because they could hear music, sat down and started singing the hymns. When Sophia discovered this, she apparently had to wrestle them out of the church!
Jeanie stayed in New Zealand because she was married. The rest of the family moved to Australia around 1921, and were based in NSW. Philip died in 1946 and is buried at the Rockwood (or Rookwood) Jewish Cemetery....
Jared
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One way to check would be to go to digitised newspapers website and search for Bremen in the Sydney Morning Herald for 1904 ... and you can restrict the search to a particular date, or even a month...
I found it: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page1331940
Thanks!
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:) Dear Stacy, I have just read your comment with great interest. I am caroline josephs, daughter of Harold. Edith Bourke was my aunt. Engaged for 15 years before marrying Edmund as i recall...no doubt because of the apparent conflict in backgrounds eh? I have been corresponding with Jared in NZ who is researching Philip. I would LOVE to see the photos of Philip J. and Sophia if you have them? You can respond to me. I will send details offline with personal email. I have Philip and Sophia's marriage certificate (Scotland) and death certificates (Sydney) if you are interested. I met your mother when i was in Auckland and then staying with Naomi in 1996....you would have been very small then i guess....?
Gambling is probably prt of the story of Philip I am beginning to think....Lots more emerging slowly....a fascinating story....
Best wishes, caroline (sydney)
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http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=ROOT_CATEGORY&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=ms_r_f-2_s&gsfn=Philip&gsln=Josephs&mswpn__ftp=Russia&msbdy=1879&uidh=9e7
This looks like him!!Shame it won't let me enlarge the photo :-\
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http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=ROOT_CATEGORY&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=ms_r_f-2_s&gsfn=Philip&gsln=Josephs&mswpn__ftp=Russia&msbdy=1879&uidh=9e7
This looks like him!!Shame it won't let me enlarge the photo
Can someone on ancestry download the photo in the link above and PM it to Stacey and I? We would very much appreciate it! Thanks
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My mistake: It is Rookwood Cemetery...in Sydney. Not just a Jewish cemetery but there is a Jewish section.
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Although not a book solely on Philip Josephs, my new book does mention him a bit:
Featuring an array of archival documents and illustrations, Remains to be Seen: Tracing Joe Hill's ashes in New Zealand—an easy-to-read account of censorship and radical labour during the First World War—is now available to purchase from Rebel Press: http://www.rebelpress.org.nz/publications/remains-to-be-seen
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b231/gza05/Remains_To_Be_Seen_Cover-1.jpg)
About the book:
On the eve of his execution in 1915, Joe Hill—radical songwriter, union organiser and member of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW)—penned one final telegram from his Utah prison cell: “Could you arrange to have my body hauled to the state line to be buried? I don’t want to be found dead in Utah.” Hill’s body was then cremated, his ashes placed into tiny packets and sent to IWW Locals, sympathetic organizations and individuals around the world. Among the nations said to receive Hill’s ashes, New Zealand is listed.
Yet nothing is known about what happened to the ashes of Joe Hill in New Zealand. Were Hill’s ashes really sent to New Zealand? Or was New Zealand simply listed to give such a symbolic act more scope? If they did make it, what ever happened to them?
Remains to be Seen traces the ashes of Joe Hill from their distribution in Chicago to wartime New Zealand. Drawing on previously unseen archival material, it examines the persecution of anarchists, socialists and Wobblies in New Zealand during the First World War. It also explores how intense censorship measures—put in place by the National Coalition Government of William Massey and zealously enforced by New Zealand’s Solicitor-General, Sir John Salmond—effectively silenced and suppressed the IWW in New Zealand.
A free downloadable PDF version is also available from Rebel Press.
The book will be launched in Christchurch on Thursday June 30 at Beat Street Cafe (Corner Barbadoes and Armagh), at 5.30pm. Jared Davidson, author and designer of Remains to be Seen, will share a few thoughts on his research, and copies of the book will also be available for purchase.
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Hi All,
I have also been doing some research on my Mum's behalf and I think I may also be a great-granddaughter of Philip Josephs!!! Except I'm only finding out about it now :o
My Mum was adopted in 1957 and has lived her whole life knowing nothing about he biological roots except that her biological father, John Baggoley, died in 1972 in Melbourne, Victoria (he left her some money when she turned 21 and the truth had to come out!).
After some extensive research over the last few days (mainly to see if we could ascertain the cause of death for her biological mother so we had some background info), I have discovered that John Baggoley was married to "Louise" (Lulu Josephs) who was married twice before him (to a Henry J Baker in 1924 and Phillip O'Malley in 1934, both in New South Wales, Australia). Louise then married John Baggoley in I think around 1946 in Melbourne (around the same time her Dad, Philip Josephs, died in Katoomba, NSW.
Louise then died in 1957 when she was 51 of cancer of the bladder (my mum was 1 year old and thus given up for adoption by Mr Baggoley - who himself was 60 years old and unable to care for her). Talk about a whirlwind of information over the last couple of days.
I would be grateful to hear if anyone has any stories about Lulu and the family or even any pictures - that would be incredible!!
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Hi Jared,
I'm not sure how to respond to your message.
Email: (*)
Anything you could help me with would be fantastic.....this is so exciting!!
Jess.
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