Possible Death of John Ramsay 1839-40

[DeeWhy]

Can anyone offer assistance in clarifying a problem I have with a Ramsay family residing in Perth, Perthshire in trying to locate a possible death record of a John Ramsay 1839-40. A John Ramsay married Mary Ann Bell on 5 July 1830 according to the Dundee Marriage Register. They had a daughter Lillias who was born in Perth in 1837 and a son Alexander born in Perth 9 March 1840. A record of Alexander’s birth states he was the son of the late John Ramsay a Tailor residing in St John Street, Perth and was registered around 1860 due to the fact that statutory registrations did not commence until 1855. Therefore did John Ramsay, die before Alexander was born in 1840 or did he decease just prior to the time when Alexander’s birth was registered in 1860?

The 1841 census reveals that John Ramsay 55, occupation Tailor, Mary Ann 27, Lillias 4 and Alexander 1 were residing in the civil parish of Perth, West Church. If John Ramsay was 55 in 1841 he would have been 44 when he married Mary Ann who would have been only 18 or 19. Therefore was John Ramsay actually Mary Ann’s father-in-law? Lillias died 28 May 1843 age 7 in Dundee, Angus and according to her burial register her father was described as John Ramsay, Tailor. When Mary Ann died 22 September 1865 in Dundee she was described as the widow of John Ramsay Tailor. Could father and son both been Tailors? To add to the confusion when Alexander married in 1864 in South Shields, Durham his deceased father was described as a Seaman the same as Alexander. Could this have been entered incorrectly? Given the number of errors I have previously encountered in registration documents if John Ramsay died just prior to Alexander’s birth was the John Ramsay age 55 recorded in the 1841 census actually be Alexander’s grandfather?

 (There was a John Ramsay born in the parish of Couper Angus, Perthshire 20 May 1808 with parents John Ramsay and Janet Crichton who could possibly have been Alexander’s father.)

Incidentally I have been unsuccessful in locating any of the family in Scottish or English census records for 1851 or 1861.

If anyone can shed any light on this quandary I would be most grateful.

[MonicaL]

Hi DeeWhy

What is the source for this info?

A record of Alexander’s birth states he was the son of the late John Ramsay a Tailor residing in St John Street, Perth and was registered around 1860 due to the fact that statutory registrations did not commence until 1855. Therefore did John Ramsay, die before Alexander was born in 1840 or did he decease just prior to the time when Alexander’s birth was registered in 1860?

What were the details on Mary Ann Bell/Ramsay's death registration? Who reported her death, age, parents' names, her occupation?

Sorry, lots of questions always isn't there 

Monica 

Added: Are these parent details correct for Mary Ann? www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=562703.0

[MonicaL]

Lillias, as a name, was obviously an important family name maybe? Apart from the Lillias you have born in 1837, there looks to have been another Lillias who also died young. Can't tell can we if the right family as we are just working off some key data at the moment. This is what is on the database.

Ramsay Lillias 21 Dec 1834 22 mth Dundee Inflammation of Lungs Dr of John Ramsay, Tailor
www.fdca.org.uk/pdf%20files/HowffR01.pdf

Not sure if connected (given family not yet found in 1851):

Ramsay Euphemia 11 Jun 1854 7 yr Aberdeen Inflammation of lungs Daug of John Ramsay, Tailor Blinshall Street
www.fdca.org.uk/pdf%20files/HowffR01.pdf

What is the source for the birth details you have for Lillias 1837 and Alexander 1840?

Their 1841 census that you have shows them as all born in the county of Perthshire (if correct):

John Ramsay 55 Tailor
Mary Ann Ramsay  27
Lillias Ramsay 4
Alexander Ramsay 1
Address: South Street, Perth

Monica

[MonicaL]

To add to the confusion when Alexander married in 1864 in South Shields, Durham his deceased father was described as a Seaman the same as Alexander. Could this have been entered incorrectly?

Daft I know.... On Alexander's marriage reg, did father John show as 'sailor' rather than seaman? Just because sometimes, the way clerks wrote this up, sailor and tailor get confused with the style of writing...

Monica

[RJ_Paton]

They had a daughter Lillias who was born in Perth in 1837 and a son Alexander born in Perth 9 March 1840. A record of Alexander’s birth states he was the son of the late John Ramsay a Tailor residing in St John Street, Perth and was registered around 1860 due to the fact that statutory registrations did not commence until 1855. Therefore did John Ramsay, die before Alexander was born in 1840 or did he decease just prior to the time when Alexander’s birth was registered in 1860?

If Alexander was born in 1840 this would suggest he was a different Alexander to the one whose birth was registered in 1860. There was no procedure set up in the Civil Registration system for recording the birth of those born before Civil Registration began.

The 1860 entry states that this child was the son of the deceased John Ramsay a Tailor suggesting that this John died sometime between conception and the birth. This would give a death date around 1859/1860.

It was not unusal in families to "recycle" names of children who had died but if the 1841 census data is the correct family they appear to be too old to be the parents of the child registered in 1860

[JMStrachan]

1861 census has Mary Ramsay age 50 living in Anderson Place, Dundee with son Alexander Ramsay age 25, an engineer. Both born in Dundee. Can't find them in 1851, though.

Have you accessed the 1860 birth certificate on ScotlandsPeople? I agree with Falkyrn that that wouldn't have been the registration of an 1840 birth. What does the birth certificate say?

[buckhyne]

Is this them in the 1851 census:
1851 census: William Street, Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Mary   Ramsey   Head   Widow   Female   38   1813   Nothing   Dundee   
Alex   Ramsey   Son   Unmarried   Male   15   1836   Scholar   Dundee, Forfarshire, Scotland   
Eliza   Ramsey   Daughter   Unmarried   Female   15   1836   Scholar   Dundee, Forfarshire, Scotland   
William   McLarn   Lodger   Unmarried   Male   34   1817   Engneer   Perth   
Jas   Fleming   Lodger   Unmarried   Male   19   1832   Merchant Clerk   Newington

[DeeWhy]

Thanks to everyone for your interest in this subject.

Firstly Monica. Mary Ann Bell/Ramsay’s death registration was reported by her brother-in-law (someone) Rodger, her age 54, parents John Bell farmer and Sarah Bell nee (unreadable.)
The source of Lillias’ birth is the 1841 census where she is reported as 4 years old.
The source of Alexander’s birth is a copy of his birth registration on scotslandspeople web site.
I believe there is no connection with Euphemia Ramsay family.
Alexander’s marriage certificate shows deceased father John Ramsay’s occupation as a Seaman and not a sailor.

Secondly Falkyrn. The scanned copy of the document recording the birth of Alexander in 1840 has been cut short on the right hand side. However it states:-
“Registered this thirteenth day of December ----
authority of a relative tenant by Hugh Aneslay ----
Sheriff Substitute of the County of Perth dated 8th ----
1860”
“Entry transcribed at Perth twenty sixth day of June 1861.”

I guess the question is what document was the information transcribed from. If it was from a church register it is possible there is a register in the same church which may contain a record of John Ramsay’s death in 1839-40.

Thirdly JM Strachan. I have reviewed the 1861 census record you refer to however the ages and birth districts do not compare.

Fourthly buckhind. As above the ages and birth districts do not compare.

[RJ_Paton]

The additional information helps provide a little clarity - although the situation is rare.
(upon a Sheriffs warrant and payment of a fee any birth which occurred in Scotland between 1800 and 1855 can be recorded in a "Register of Neglected Entries")

For some reason around 1860 this Alexander Ramsay either needed or wanted to prove his parentage and to clarify that situation you need to check to see if the court documents exist - they have the potential of being a gold mine of information.