Author Topic: William Patrick Baker - 1885  (Read 4555 times)

Offline Thornbird4

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
William Patrick Baker - 1885
« on: Monday 24 February 14 21:38 GMT (UK) »
Hi

I am trying to trace the birth of my grandfather William Patrick Baker on 28 April 1885.  From his military records it says birthplace, St Kevins, Dublin.   His parents are William Baker and Eliza Stanford and they never married.  I have looked extensively for his birth but just get zero results.  I have written to St Kevins but they have no record.   He was a Roman Catholic.     Can anybody suggest my next course of action? 

He appears on the 1911 Irish census living with his mother and step-father in Dublin.  It also says he was married and has been for 8 years but his marriage certificate to my grandmother (in London) dated 1917 says he was single.   I can't find an Irish Marriage for him either.

Can anybody help me? 

Regards

Offline dathai

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,078
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: William Patrick Baker - 1885
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 25 February 14 08:54 GMT (UK) »
Upon looking at Irish Genealogy and the 1901 Census of 40 Mercer st upper ,i find it all very confusing,you have two Elizabeth Stanford born to two brothers Simon and John both at 40 Mercer st 1901.
Elizabeth born 6 April 1884 dtr John and Julia
Elizabeth born 8 June 1879 dtr Simon and Margaret both a bit young to be William Bakers mother then you have William James Kelsall soldier marrying Elizabeth Stanford 1898 in St Peters dtr of Simon.

Offline dathai

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,078
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: William Patrick Baker - 1885
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 25 February 14 09:19 GMT (UK) »
Sorry i take it now after checking her birthplace that Elizabeth is most likely Simon and John's sister.
I see the years married against William Bakers name crossed off,just my personal opinion it says 2 years 4 months and there are a few marriages for William Baker in Dublin 1908.

Offline dathai

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,078
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: William Patrick Baker - 1885
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 25 February 14 09:57 GMT (UK) »
There is an 18yr old William Baker in Naas East 1901 born Dublin,Barrack Return.
Bottom of page 2 Barrack return form H says what looks like H Paterson,Colonel 102 R D.


Offline dathai

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,078
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: William Patrick Baker - 1885
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 25 February 14 11:57 GMT (UK) »
There are a few prison records for Simon Stanford born 1852 Clonegal,Wexford just bringing it to your attention if you were looking for Elizabeths birth as the place to look for same.Simon died 1908 age 55 and is buried in Glasnevin.

There is also an Elizabeth Benson on the 1939 Register of electors at Bargy Rd.
Glasnevin shows a burial for same lady 1939 of Bargy Rd age 74 wheter this is your Elizabeth is hard to tell.

Offline myluck!

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,768
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: William Patrick Baker - 1885
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 25 February 14 15:02 GMT (UK) »
I agree with Dathai that the 1911 census does look more like 2 years than 8 years for no. of years married for William
As this seems to be the birth record of John Benson Jnr in 1896 I looked for Bensons rather than Bakers or Stanfords in 1901

This looks like it is Elizabeth BENSON (formerly STANFORD & BAKER) on the 1901 census
with her son John BENSON at the home of her brother Simon STANFORD.
It also links to some of the information that Dathai suggested as
also present was Emma KELSALL aged 21 and possibly the sister-in-law or other relative
of Simon’s through the marriage of his daughter Elizabeth in 1898 LINK

Eliza STANFORD m John BENSON in 1894
There are four male and four female names shown so no indication that Elizabeth was ever named BAKER,
however the actual marriage certificate would tell you if she was described as single or a widow.

This means that the STANFORD family originated in Wexford
and following on from that to gain more information on Elizabeth consider:

Simon STANFORD married Margaret ROCHE in 1869 and his father is shown as Laurence
which ties in with his son’s name; his address was given as Clonegal, Co. Wexford;
Margaret’s father’s address was Martinstown, Suncroft, Co. Kildare

If you search for Laurence STANFORD in Wexford,
there are two marriages in 1870 and 1873 that are interesting;
the father in both cases is Laurence STANFORD of Susannah and Catharina.

Also noting that the sponsor at the baptism of the young Laurence in 1873 was named Joannes CARROLL;
the same as Catharina’s groom in 1870.
If proven to be correct it would give Elizabeth’s parents as Laurence STANFORD and Sara STYLES

On rootsireland.ie if you search for births to a Laurence STANFORD, mother S* you will get 4 hits;
1838 Mary; 1841 Simon; 1844 Alice; and 1855 Eliza –
this makes all the family older than declared on the census returns but that was not unusual.
They were baptised in Clonegal RC Parish, Co. Wicklow on the Co. Wexford border.

Also an Alice turns up as a sponsor/witness on some records.

Laurence STANFORD m Sally STYLES in 1835 in Clonegal,
there are possibly other children that are not recorded during the twenty years following their marriage
that included the famine period.
Having just 4 children in 20 years in those days was uncommon.

Also remember the fact that in 1911 Elizabeth said she was 46,
she had aged 12 years since the 1901 census!
and William said he was 30 which although not impossible would have made her only 16 when he was born
and make the year 1881. So there are already discrepancies in their details.

I can only presume that the date of Apr 28 1885 came from some other official document, possibly the army as your previous posting in 2010 states 1884

Just located William's Army record; he attested in 1899 stating he was 18 years and 2 months
which ties back to the census and implying that was 1880/1881;
he was posted to South Africa and India from 1899 through to 1907
which implies that he married abroad if 8 years in the 1911 census was correct,
however his army record would then show this fact;
it seems more likely he married, if he did marry between 1907 and 1911.
He also interestly showed his aunt Margaret STANFORD of Mercer St as his next of kin

Could this be William’s birth as STANFORD rather than BAKER
Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder

Offline myluck!

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,768
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: William Patrick Baker - 1885
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 25 February 14 16:03 GMT (UK) »
Some further searching resulted in the following:
An Alice and her sister Sarah STANFORD are on the 1901 census in Clonegal, Co. Carlow;
but they state they were born in Co. Wexford.
If you look at Clonegal on a map it straddles the Carlow/Wexford border
and is approx 500m from the Co. Wicklow border
which could explain the varying counties being referred to;
but more importantly William attested to the army in Clonmel which is closer to Carlow than Dublin.
Sarah STANFORD is shown again in 1911 but without Alice;
this could be Alice in Dublin the record is mistranscribed as STAMFORD;
and there is a death record to match her in 1925 in Carlow
and Sarah in 1921 again in Carlow
Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder

Offline dathai

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,078
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: William Patrick Baker - 1885
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 25 February 14 18:28 GMT (UK) »
Well done My Luck i think you've cracked it,great bit of research.

Offline Thornbird4

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: William Patrick Baker - 1885
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 25 February 14 18:59 GMT (UK) »
Wow, thank you so much for your replies. 
I have a copy of the marriage certificate between Eliza and John Benson (RC Chapel of SS Michael and John, 5.4.1894) and Eliza is recorded as single.   Her father, Laurence is a carpenter.   Eliza and John both made their mark rather than signature. 
Laurence and Sarah did indeed have more children.  I have, Thomas (1845), Catherine (1846), Alice (1847), Sarah (1848), Simon (1850), Susan (1850) and Eliza (1863).   I'm sure there must be more. 
The marriage certificate and military records for William Baker (born c. 1885) show his middle name as Patrick and on his MC his father is named as William Baker, a sergeant in the RHA.   Is is possible to get the military records for William Senior or have they been destroyed?   
It is a remarkable coincidence that you have found a Baptism of a William JOSEPH Stanford to an Elizabeth Stanford with no father recorded.  Unless William has changed his name and date of birth for whatever reason, then I don't think it can be him but who knows !!! 
Many thanks dathai and myluck for looking for me.