Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA

[fifer1947]

Can anyone do a search of the list held at Noel Butlin Archives Centre of employees/members of the above union for a William Saunders, a carpenter to trade?  http://archivescollection.anu.edu.au/index.php/list-of-members-employed-at-port-adelaide-and-at-broken-hill-proprietary-bhp-limited-in-whyalla

William died in 1910 aged 55 at Perth WA so born about 1855.

His son Clifford Magnus Saunders was stated born at Broken Hill on his attestation papers, but I can find nothing until the family moved to Perth WA.  I have quite a bit on Clifford. Related thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=570282.18

I'm trying to find out when William Saunders emigrated, where the family lived, when he married Mary Ann Kerr (born Ireland - my direct link) and dob of Clifford Magnus Saunders, but I've reached an impasse at Broken Hill.

Mary Ann died at Perth WA in 1944 aged 86 so born about 1858, she was my gt grandfather's sister.

I'd be very grateful if anyone can find anything on the family from this area. 

[majm]

I can't help with that lookup, sorry. 

I have had a quick look at some of my offline resources, and so I hope I am not duplicating info on earlier threads.

Re William and Mary SAUNDERS perhaps at Broken Hill (in New South Wales)

1903 NSW Electoral Roll for the electorate of  BARRIER   (includes Broken Hill and surrounding locations)

polling at Willyama
SAUNDERS  David, Kaolin Street, miner
SAUNDERS John William, Cobalt Street,  boarding house keeper
SAUNDERS, Mary  Kaolin Street, domestic duties,   

Polling at Tibooburra
SAUNDERS William Walter B , Tibooburra, labourer

It was not yet compulsory to enrol, but 1903 was first time that females were eligible to enrol.   Males and females needed to be British Subjects, locals, and aged 21 years and over.

There’s insufficient information on the rolls to indicate any family relationships.

Re Clifford

Clifford Magnus SAUNDERS WWI service records (free to view online at the NAA) do show that in January 1916 he was aged 19 years 6 months, born at or near Broken Hill, in N S Wales (New South Wales) and his mother’s signature is on same page, giving consent for his Active Service Abroad. 

Likely she would have known where and when he was born.     

Cheers,  JM

[cando]

Death certificates will help you with your research as the information should include their places of birth, parents' names including mothers' maiden names; dates, places and ages at marriage, how long in Australia and in each state; issue both living and deceased and their ages.

If Clifford was born in Broken Hill then his parents did not register his birth.  His mother would not have necessarily seen his attestation papers and it is possible he assumed he was born Broken Hill because he lived there. 

He would appear he initally enlisted on 4 Jan 1916 which was amended to 17 Jan 1916.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAMedia/ShowImage.asp?B=8074919&S=1&T=R

The executed parental consent does not have his place of birth but the enlisting officer has signed it the date of the initial enlistment.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAMedia/ShowImage.asp?B=8074919&S=15&T=R

Did Clifford need to gain his mother's consent and therefore the date of his enlistment was altered.

Cando

Edit to add links.

[majm]

Yes, as Clifford was not yet 21 when attesting in Jan 1916, he was still a minor and therefore not yet old enough to give his own consent to serve abroad.

Cheers,   JM

[cando]

He obviously had to take the form to his mother for signature and when he returned his enlistment date was amended from 4 Jan to 17 Jan 1916.

I found this online...so if the birth details are correct on the attestation papers how could the details on the photos be correct.  Did this child die and a later son given the same name or is there an error with the date.

http://genforum.genealogy.com/saunders/messages/1508.html

I have 2 old photos one of William his wife Mary Ann and son Clifford Magnus 1891 taken in Sundsvall, Sweden (on hard card so I can't scan it on my machine), the other just Mary Ann and Clifford no date. The family group has the words "with love from William MaryAnn & Clifford Magnus Saunders May 18th 1891" on the back. They were sent to my gt grandfather Robert Cameron Kerr (an Irishman living in Glasgow, Scotland) and therefore I suspect that Mary Ann was related to him (perhaps his sister) as there are no Saunders in our side of the family..........

Cando

[majm]

Ummmm..... or "1891" was misread and it should have been read as "1897"

Cheers,  JM

[Neil Todd]

Is it possible that they had been here for a bit longer.

DEATHS
WILLIAM M    SAUNDERS FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER MARY AT BROKEN HILL REF #3766/1892
AND
HERBERT SAUNDERS   FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER MARY A AT BATHURST REF # 4361/1879

NEIL

[cando]

From the OP's linked thread

I have a studio photograph of a couple and their son taken in Sundsvall Sweden in May 1891.  Just how these people tie into my family is a mystery!

Their names are William (father) Mary Ann I'd guesstimate 30's/40's age group for the couple and the child is Clifford Magnus Saunders.  For ages I'd guess no more than 5 or 6 for the child so probably born circa 1885-7.

Pointless researching without certificates.

Cando

[majm]

Well  I am now totally confuddled !  1885 v 1897 is a very long range for a lad enlisting in 1916 and needing Mum's consent to enlist.

Saunders is a fairly popular surname in NSW 19th century records, but Clifford Magnus as given names was not 'top of the pops".

How did they get to or from Broken Hill, New South Wales, to or from Sundsvall, Sweden (and why !)   

Yes,  I agree, there needs to be some certificates.   

What information did Mary provide to the funeral director for inclusion on the death registration of Clifford's Dad ?

Cheers,  JM