39th Regiment of Foot

[km1971]

Hi Wendy

Your post has woken me up to the fact I didn’t reply to your last one. I got sidetracked looking at the medal roll for the 39th Regiment. Yes you are quite right – he was over 18 when he enlisted.

The regiment was in Spain in November 1813. This shows that their Depot was in Canterbury at the time, which I didn't have, so thanks for that.

I have looked at the medal roll for the Peninsular Wars for the 39th. The medal was not authorised until 1847 and you had you be alive then, and apply, to receive one. He is not listed, so either he was dead, or he did not hear about it. There is a James Howard listed, so he might have been related.

Ken

[cassofromdyers]

oh Ken, please forgive my ignorance. I do not know anything about the military or how they worked. If the Regiment was in Spain in 1813, then how was the recruitment conducted? I do know from documents here in Australia, that Joseph Howard, private, left the 39th Regiment of Foot on the 30th June 1832 after paying 5 pound for discharge to remain in the Colony. I also know (fact) that in the 1841 Census in Australia he was a Myrtle Creek. He had a wife & daughter (7-14), who arrived free, 2 males & 1 female born in the colony 7-14 yrs. The children born in NSW were from 1827 -1835.
These are the details:CENSUS:  1841 Census. HOWARD Joseph, return 47 Myrtle Creek, County Camden, District Picton. Item ID (X949) p 73, Reel 2222.
Details on return for Joseph HOWARD of Myrtle Creek. Aged 7 - 14 years 2 males 1 female, Aged 14 - 21 years l female, Aged 21 - 45 years 2 males, 2 females. Married 1 male, 1 female. Single 3 males, 3 females. Free or born in colony 2 males, 1 female. Arrived Free 1 male, 2 females. In Private Assignment 1 male, 1 female. Religion Church of England 2, Roman Catholic 6. Occupations Landed Proprietors, Merchants, Bankers & Professional Persons 1, Shephers and Other in care of sheep 1, Domestic Service 1, All other persons not included in forgoing classes 5. Males 4, Females 4, Total 8. House 1 wood, Furnished 1, Inhabited 1.
So according to the 1841 Census, Joseph arrived in Australia with a wife Hannah nee  Dier/Dyer daughter of a Tailor, and a daughter born before arriving in NSW in 1827. she was aged 7 -14 years in 1841.
Wendy

[km1971]

Hi Wendy

When regiments were serving abroad they would leave a Depot back in the UK for recruitment and training. When they needed men in the battalions – the 39th Foot normally only had one battalion, but up to 1815 they had two – they asked the Depot to send them reinforcements.

Actually I have found some interesting pieces of information about Joseph Howard. He joined the 2nd Battalion at Winchester on 17 October 1815. It says he enlisted on 26th September 1815 at Gloster (Gloucester). So there is a discrepancy with what you have on the 'Men charged for the First Time, for Additional Pay’ page from 1827. He received a bounty of £2 15s on enlistment.

There was also a Private Moses Howard in the same battalion who was invalided to Chatham and discharged 30 November 1815.  I wonder if they were related. Moses was a ‘7 year’ man, ie served between 7 and 14 years.

If you pm me an email address I will send what I have.

btw....P = Private, C = Corporal. Sergeants did not get service/good conduct pay. It was included in the ‘per diem’ rate. Basic pay for a Private was 1s a day, with 1d extra after 7 and 14 years.

Ken

[Broomie]

Hi Wendy,
I've just spotted your post. I can provide you with a little information on Joseph Howard. I've only today finished transcribing a diary kept by John Forbes, the Captain of the Guards on the convict ship, Guildford, during its 1827 voyage to NSW. He had command of the elite, grenadier corps of the 39th Regiment which was being transferred to NSW and was assigned to guard the convicts on the Guildford. He lists all the soldiers under his command. Among them was Private Jos Howard who was accompanied by Mrs Howard and one child. Most of the soldier's first names were abbreviated in this way. No further details are given. They sailed from the Nore at the mouth of the Thames on March 25,1827.

The only other major reference to the Howard family is this
Tuesday 10 April: "Mrs Howard brought to bed of a son last night."

and then rather obnoxiously....

Monday April 16: "Mrs Howards child died last night & was consigned to the fishes".

I believe this sort of flippant callousness was considered "cool" within his circle but he later shows a decent, caring side when one of his men falls dangerously ill. The 200 page diary gives a fair indication of his character and I'm sure that the flippancy was a facade: he would have been genuinely upset by the death. The child who died was definitely not the one listed as accompanying them, so one child arrived safely in NSW with them.
 
At the end of the diary he lists all of the soldiers who were punished for sloppiness, insubordination etc. The usual punishment was to stop their grog. Most of the soldiers get a mention but not Jos Howard. Clearly his behaviour was exceptional.

There are two other direct mentions of Joseph. Of the morning parade on July 11: "Mostly very clean - Webb, Howard & Lewis particularly so - Dean & Conway dirty - they ought both be got rid of useless vagabonds."

Finally on July 23, one day's sail from Sydney: "Paraded with clean packs in hand - Howard has lost one of his." No disciplinary measure was taken against him, I assume because Forbes would give such a good soldier the benefit of the doubt. The soldier's equipment didn't just disappear. It was either stolen or sold by the soldier to one of the convicts or crew members. Forbes would have assumed the pack was
stolen.

That's all, I'm afraid. They entered Sydney Heads early on July 25 and disembarked at 2PM, marching to the barracks with drums & bugles and the full regalia, letting Sydney know that the grenadiers had arrived.

I have to make a few corrections and add some footnotes to the diary then I'll pass it on to the National Library in Canberra. They have the original manuscript and hold copyright on its contents. I was allowed to photograph it on the basis that I'd do them the transcription, and was required, as are all people who examine their rare manuscripts, to sign an agreement to honour their copyright.  I hope that they will soon make the diary available for download.
Doug.

[km1971]

Hi Doug

Welcome to the forum, and what an amazing first post. Finding a Captain's diary that mentions the Other Ranks by name must be very rare for the period.

It will be Grenadier Coy (ie Company) rather than corps. Each line regiment had a Grenadier company of the biggest fittest men. And I don’t believe the Captain was being either 'cool’ or callous about the death of the infant. He is just being ‘matter of fact’ in an age when 25% of infants died before reaching their first birthday.

Ken

[cassofromdyers]

Doug, You found a goldmine. It must have been a pleasure to transcribe the diary. I am most greatful for that information. I know from the 1828 census that Joseph, his wife Hannah and a daughter, Mary Anne came free. This proves Mary Anne accompanied her parents aboard the Guildford. I hope this transcription will be available in the future. With the assistance of people from this site I now have more information on this elusive soldier and his family.
Again, thanks
Wendy

[marjann]

I am wondering if anyone out there can help me in tracing my soldier.
 Sergeant Charles James Blewett /Blewitt was in the 39th regiment of foot.He was withthe 2nd bat transferring to the 1st bat in Nov 1813  joining the service cop.in France was left in France sick march when the bat transferred to America he returned to England and the 2nd bat  returned to France rejoining the 1st bat July 1815 arrived in Ireland DEC 1815 where he was promoted to Sergeant 25/4/1825 and  was detached to 'Kanturk' 10/5/1825  He  arrived in Hobart 29/4/1826 aboard the "Woodman" with 150 male convicts  I presume his wife and at least 1 female child came with him. His wife Winifred ( O'Brien ) will says she was married in Cork which would have been in 1821 discharged at Port Macquarie NSW 8/3/1832 with a gratuity pay of 1 1/2 years pay of 5pound 3s 9p for 18years service to settel in Australia.
I would love any help or corrections especially where he was born.
Thank you Marj

[MaureenM]

I have recently discovered my g g g g grandfather, Thomas Poole,  was a Lt-Col in the 39th regiment from 1837 to 1838/9 when he died. He transferred from the 22nd Cheshires in 1828 with the rank of major.
Can anyone tell me where he might have served between then and 1839?
He died in late 1838 or 1839 in India. A codicil to his will written in 1838 virtually cuts of his second wife, Mary, describing  her as a worthless wretch!
Fortunately I am descended from his first wife Sarah Spence.
I was interested to hear there are records of births, marriages and deaths abroad in Kew as so far I haven't found a death certificate.
Maureen

[km1971]

Hi Maureen

The 39th Regiment were in New South Wales on prison guard duty until July 1832 when they sailed for India. In 1834 they took part in the Coorg campaign.

Ken