Author Topic: Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder  (Read 24323 times)

Offline A brown

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Re: Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder
« Reply #45 on: Sunday 12 January 14 21:50 GMT (UK) »
Thanks kipper5, this was interesting to read. I still have had no luck finding out any more about
Robert Hamilton brown!

Offline Carole Hampton

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Re: Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder
« Reply #46 on: Tuesday 14 January 14 09:47 GMT (UK) »
Hi K   All very interesting I had come to the conclusion that Alex B must be my g g father and he is yours too small world. Can't believe that all this has openned up as I had been thinking of investigating the Brown connection for quite some time.
Have done a bit of delving and see on 1841 census for Stewartston Alexander Brown aged 23 and Janet (I think) Brown aged 21 Which is the right age bracket for AB. Have you sen this alas no nearer maiden nme.

Offline canberraterry

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Re: Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder
« Reply #47 on: Tuesday 14 January 14 20:21 GMT (UK) »
Hello Alex and Kipper,

The world may even be smaller than you think. As suggested earlier I appear to be related as well although I cannot find a definite link. I am the gg grandson of a John Brown (1830-1900), allegedly a major supplier of iron lacework in Derry so surely of the same family, who married Margaret Rutherford Andrews, and their daughter Jane (Jeannie) McMillen Brown (1855-1921), who married John Cunningham (1847-1919), and their daughter (my grand mother) Adeline Rutherford (Ada) Cunningham (1879-1970) who married John Wesley Smith (1878-1961). I would be delighted if either of you could help with proving/disproving the link.
I have since discovered second cousins from the same line in Canada as well as the UK, and of course there is a sizeable bunch of us here in Oz. Truly fascinating to see how we have spread.
Cheers,
Terry
Humble, Cunningham, Ferguson, Browne, Smith, Brabazon, Pincombe, Black, Mackie, White

Offline canberraterry

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Re: Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder
« Reply #48 on: Wednesday 15 January 14 07:07 GMT (UK) »
Since writing the above this morning I have reviewed all of my family material again and am now even more confused. The following is an extract of a brief family history written by my grandmother, Ada (nee Cunningham), daughter of Jane "Jeannie" McMillen Brown (sometimes with an e and sometimes without) shortly before her death. I apologise for its length but I hope that it might jog some memories if we are indeed related:

"2.   The Brownes 

My maternal grandmother was a dainty, petite, and attractive woman; Margaret Rutherford Browne,  one of three sisters, descendents of Dr Samuel Rutherford, the Presbyterian Divine. They were wards of the Horatio Bonars in Glasgow, Scotland.

Grandma lived with her eldest daughter, Agnes Robertson (nee Browne) in Derry. Other children :

a.   Auntie Mag Lowry (nee Browne) was a teacher and a great favourite in our home, when on holidays before her marriage.

b.   Aunt Ada married and went to America. – I remember seeing her only once afterwards, when she came on a visit to Grandma in Londonderry.

c.   There were two sons, John Brown and David (?)  whom I dimly remember as coming to say goodbye to my parents before sailing for South Africa.

Mother used to tell us of her visits to her aunts in Glasgow, and of spending days and evenings in the home of one of the poet preachers - Dr Horatio Bonar.

I was told that Grandfather Browne was responsible for most of the decorative iron-work – railings etc – in Derry city. I remember him as a big, affectionate man who lavished sweets and pennies on us children, We spent those coppers in a little, dark shop two steps down from the road, where a little old woman dispensed thick sticks of caraway rock and peppermint out of jars with tight-fitting lids. Whenever I spent a few days at Grandma Browne’s home, I wondered at, and was rather scared by the rows of big, equal-sized gilt-framed portraits adorning the dining room walls, but wakened with delight to the sound of the sirens, steam whistles “blowing” and movements of shipping on the River Foyle, and at the wharves.

On Boxing Day we always had the Robertson family from Derry come for the day. Father and Uncle A  went off shooting with a party of local men, coming home just in time for dinner, with rabbits, hares, and birds of various kinds, that lasted both families for a week afterwards. On 30th October they used to come to celebrate All Souls’ Day, or All Hallows’ Eve, with us. We used to look out excitedly to see them coming up the street from the railway station with Father, who had gone to meet them. There was usually a whitish mist rising from the ground. We children did not go to meet them, but they appeared through the gathering darkness, and celebrations began almost before they were indoors. Uncle and Auntie, Daisy, Jean, Alex, George, and Jim.

Apples were hanging on strings suspended near the ceiling, tubs of water on the floor contained more apples, with a supply of forks, dropped from the mouth to spear them with. White sheets as wraps for “ghosties” to dress in, to hunt for cabbage stalks and so discover the names of our future life partners. Each person carried a cabbage stalk from the garden, then, clutching it firmly, listened outside someone’s window – any name overheard in the indoor conversation was supposed to be the name of the clutcher’s wife or husband-to-be! When the water and apples and tubs etc had been cleared away, nuts were produced. They were placed in pairs on the bars of the hot grate, where they burned side by side, watched excitedly, while they flamed calmly together or spluttered and spat at each other, thus prophesying what each couple’s future would be like!

Our cousins would stay all night, returning next day to Derry by an early train. Daisy and Jean, Edith and I shared one bed, pushed up close against the wall, and sleeping cross-wise instead of length-wise."

Since the John Browne the Engineer and Iron Founder who died on 29 June 1897 was married to a Sarah, I am wondering if my gm Ada Cunningham's recollection of Margaret Rutherford Andrews as her grandmother on the Browne side might be not quite right or her recollection of the iron works might be not quite right.

I have included the extract in the hope that it might jog the memory of someone who knows the family, as I would love to be able to confirm my ancestry on this line, and I haven't had much success so far with my limited research skills. In any event, the descriptions of a life style long gone might be of interest to others.
Terry

Humble, Cunningham, Ferguson, Browne, Smith, Brabazon, Pincombe, Black, Mackie, White


Offline Kipper5

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Re: Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder
« Reply #49 on: Thursday 16 January 14 00:31 GMT (UK) »
Hello Terry,

Do you know where John Brown was born in 1930? And where he married Margaret R Andrews? And did he die in Derry in 1900?

My gg grandfather Alexander Brown was born in Ayrshire in c1818 and came to Derry in the 1850's with his work as an ironfounder/moulder.
The closest census record I have found for him in 1841 is in Newton on Ayr, Ayrshire, and lists him as a Founder, with his parents (John and Mary Brown), and his siblings (I presume): Margaret aged 15 and James aged 10. The only link I can think of is that your John is another sibling; he would have been about the same age as James. But that's rather vague. We would need to know more about where he was born, etc. He's definitely not one of Alexander's children, as he was only 12 in 1830!

I have tried hard but cannot find any further details on any of these people in this Newton 1841 census, except for Alexander, who I believe went on to marry in the next few years, and by 1851 was living in Renfrewshire with his second wife and several children.

Regards.

Offline canberraterry

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Re: Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder
« Reply #50 on: Thursday 16 January 14 04:54 GMT (UK) »
Hi Kipper,


Having gone through everything again I can find no proof of his name, although the family remembers him as John. The dates I gave were based on an early attempt to find him based on that name and may not be reliable. Going back to first principles, as his first children were born in the 1840s, I suspect that he was probably born in or around 1820, and as my grandmother's memories of him only come from her lolly buying years, I suspect that he probably died somewhere around 1890 give or take a few years. Sadly none of that is of much help.

The family names (Ada, Agnes, David, John, Margaret and Jeannie) and the similarity of occupation (allegedly a major supplier of decorative ironwork in Derry) seem to suggest a connection, but like you I have been unable to make any connection in surviving records. Thanks for what you have done so far to try to find the supposed link. I will keep trying to find some evidence one way or the other.

By the way, my g grandmother Jeannie Cunningham nee Brown/e was born in Glendermott on 19 Feb 1855 and died in Belfast on 10 July 1920.

Thanks again,

Terry

Humble, Cunningham, Ferguson, Browne, Smith, Brabazon, Pincombe, Black, Mackie, White

Offline Kipper5

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Re: Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder
« Reply #51 on: Saturday 18 January 14 16:35 GMT (UK) »
Hello, I've made some headway with things:

When Alexander Brown snr was married for the first time in Ayr he had 2 daughters that we know of: Mary, Alex Hampton's g grandmother, born in c1842 (who married John Wylie from Scotland and moved to Liverpool), and Eliza, born in c1844. Eliza is listed in the 1851 census in Johnstone, Renfewshire with the family, but I've never been able to find anything about her. But I now think she married a William Roberton, an ironmoulder from Glasgow on 9 Feb 1861 in Derry. I found a census with them in in 1881 in St Nicholas, Aberdeenshire, with 6 children, the eldest of whom is Alexander Brown Roberton, born in Ireland in 1867. I can't find any other traces of them, except maybe Alexander in the 1901 census, now an engineer, as a Boarder.

Agnes nee Stewart, Alexander Brown snr's second wife is in the 1841 census in Johnstone, Renfewshire with her grandparents, and sister Jean (she married Alexander in 1845). She is also living with a Robert Hamilton, then aged 12.  I think he was her cousin. She obviously went on to name her own son, the mysterious Robert Hamilton Brown (A Brown's g grandfather) after him.

And Terry, I've also looked into your Brown tree, hoping to find a connection with our Brown tree. I found that your gg grandfather John Brown married Margaret Rutherford on 23 June 1850 in Barony, Lanark. I think that is in Glasgow, where she was from. John is listed as a "smith" from Cowcaddens, I think also in Glasgow.
I found the census recs for their 2 daughters in Derry:
Jane seems to have been born c1856 in Derry city and married John Cunningham, auctioneer in c1877, and lived in Limavady.
And Agnes R Browne married Andrew Robertson, a coppersmith from Kilmarnock on 5 Jan 1882 in Derry. At the wedding her father is listed as John Browne, "smyth" and MR Brown (prob her mother) is a witness. Agnes seems to have been born in Scotland also c1856. Andrew and Agnes had their eldest daughter, another Margaret in c1884 in Scotland, where they must have lived when they were first married, before going to Derry-second daughter Jeannie was born in Derry c1885.
There are obviously lots of links between Scotland and Derry. I would like to know where and when John Brown, the blacksmith was born. As I said, he was married in 1850 in Glasgow, but I can't find a 1851 census, which would give info.

Regards.

Offline canberraterry

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Re: Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder
« Reply #52 on: Monday 20 January 14 00:41 GMT (UK) »
Hi Kipper,


A great many thanks for what you have found out: you have achieved more in a few days than I have in five years. I am currently travelling and won't be home for another couple of days but will get back to you after I have been able to see where your new info takes me. Thanks again.
Regards,
Terry
Humble, Cunningham, Ferguson, Browne, Smith, Brabazon, Pincombe, Black, Mackie, White

Offline Kipper5

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Re: Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder
« Reply #53 on: Wednesday 29 January 14 20:06 GMT (UK) »
Hello,

Alex Hampton, I found the death record of Elisabeth Roberton, sister of your gt grandmother, Mary Brown-Wylie. She died in Oct 1904, aged 60. The record gives her father as Alexander Brown, and mother Margaret Brown, nee Waugh, deceased.
From that I found that Alexander Brown, moulder married Margaret Waugh in Glasgow in Oct 1841!

This is Alexander's first wife; she must have died in about 1844, as he then married Agnes Stewart, my gg grandmother.

A little bit of headway into the family of Alexander Brown..