Marriage Document Question, Please - Witnesses, 1869

[Lisa in California]

Monica and Forfarian:

Thank you again for your help and for recommending the website.  I've only taken a quick peek at the site and it does look very good.

This information was mentioned in a prior link but the address was given then as 29 Blackness:
1871 Dundee
John (age 55) and Betsy (age 50) Clark and their children as well as two others.
Address:  22 Blackness Road

After having a look around on one of the "pay sites" it looks like there were quite a few Clark(e) families living on or around Blackness c1870.  I have not been able to find anything that ties this family to Margaret or her husband.

Isn't genealogy fun?    

[MonicaL]

From Joy's info before:

Patick Tierney and Margaret Flood were married 17 May 1869 according to the rites of the Roman Catholic Church. They were both of the same address - 22 Blackness st Dundee and were married at St Peters.

Margaret was a spinner in a jute mill spinster 35 yrs and Patrick was 31 yrs and some kind of labourer.
Patrick's parents were - Bernard Tierney and Mary m/s Clark both deceased.
Margaret's parents were - Mark Flood Wheelwright and Jane m/s Duffy both deceased.

The witnesses were Michael Clark and Elspet/Elizabeth Clark

I can't make out what kind of labourer Patrick was or Bernard's occupation.

Likely the Clark/e connections in Dundee may be on Patrick's mother's side given she shows as Clark?

If all the family lines were Roman Catholic, this period is so much harder to research...never mind trying to find anything in Ireland at this time.

Monica

[MonicaL]

....The female witness on the marriage "document" was an Elizabeth Flood.  At this point, I am guessing that Margaret and Elizabeth could have been related.

The witnesses on the other form (I believe the image is on the computer that recently died) were Michael Clarke and Elspet or Elizabeth Clarke.  Perhaps Elizabeth Clarke was Elizabeth Flood, or, perhaps not.  One couldn't ask for a more common first name.   

I do know that Margaret Flood had a sister.  We don't know her name.  We believe she married a Mr. Reilly/Riley, but I have not found their marriage.  I will have a look around for an Elizabeth Reilly....

Re-read this lovely intricate saga  This section here above, two documents you mention. Is the first an entry for a possible RC marriage parish entry, with the mention of an Elizabeth Flood? Is the second from the statutory marriage register?

Monica

[MonicaL]

This information was mentioned in a prior link but the address was given then as 29 Blackness:
1871 Dundee
John (age 55) and Betsy (age 50) Clark and their children as well as two others.
Address:  22 Blackness Road

We are desperately in need of a Clark genealogy map for Dundee at this time 

There looks to be two families, very similar:

One family group (helps father's occupation is more distinctive). All born in Ireland apart from grandson Thomas. Wondered whether this is the Michael and Elizabeth (mother or daughter) Clark you had as witnesses in 1869?:

1861:

John Clark 53 mason
Elisabeth Clark 51
Thomas Clark 22
Elisabeth Clark 17
Michael Clark 14 Cabinet Maker Apr
John Clark 11
Thomas Clark 1 grandon b. Dundee
...and 5 millworker Lodgers

Address: 19-21 Blackness Rd, Liff and Benvie

1871:

John Clarke 63 mason
Elisabeth Clarke 64
Michael Clarke 24 joiner
John Clarke 21 bobbin carrier
...and 5 other Lodgers

Address: 29 Blackress Rd Brown's Buildings, Dundee


The other Clark family you mentioned with mother as Betsy, from 1871:

John Clark 55 general lab.
Betsy Clark 50
Margaret Clark 16 b. Dundee...and this entry https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY5K-5QZ
Mary Clark 13 b. Dundee...maybe this entry https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYPP-3S4
...and 2 lodgers, as with likely the whole street at the time, also millworkers

Address: 22 Blackness Rd, Dundee

Likely a couple of early children's deaths who don't show in 1871: Ann b 1856 and Patrick b. 1861.

Sadly, no idea which, if any, is the right connection still 

Monica 

[Lisa in California]

Hi Monica:

At this time, neither my sons nor husband are interested in genealogy, so it is so nice to be able to communicate with others who share an interest and especially who have knowledge about Scottish matters.  Thank you very much for the look-ups; I really appreciate it.

The image with Elizabeth Flood as a witness is a "S.C.A. Marriage" and was obtained from one of the Scottish pay sites, under "CPR Marriage search returns".  (I'm grateful that I can continue to view it even though I ordered it over a year ago - that it is not a one-time viewing feature.)

The second image was mentioned from one or two RootsChatters.  My old computer died and I believe a copy of the image is on that computer.  Although I've only been researching the Tierney/Flood line for a few years, I have been researching my ancestors on and off for over 30 years (I started when I was in college).  I recently sorted through all of my documents, placing them in binders.  At this point, I cannot find a copy of the image that has Michael Clarke and Elspet/Elizabeth Clarke.  I don't know what type of document it would be, but it apparently has a lot of information as it includes their address.

Perhaps there might be a clue for me in the census records that you listed.  I'll reread them again to see if anything sinks in.   

Again, thank you so much.

[MonicaL]

Once you purchase records/images on SP, they are there for you for ever which is a great feature. Sounds like the first you have, with an Elizabeth Flood as a witness comes from the RC database now on SP (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&2017).

The other record certainly the Statutory register entry, but Joyful did such a great transcription, sounds like you have it all, apart from the actual image. I posted a quote from it earlier from the other post. You might want to contact Joyful and see whether she could resend. Always good to have original images.

Like you with your family (and likely many of us very likely here on RC  ) we are the only ones interested in the genealogy of who we are within our extended families. However...long reconciled to this all, my children love it as I turn it into stories (they also love the genealogy of other people that I have turned into stories too for them...explaining many burnt/delayed suppers  so we share all sort of families in ours too).

You are passionate about this all which I always respect. A step at a time always 

Monica

[Lisa in California]

Hi Monica:

Through the years I've learned how to become very patient, hoping eventually to have answers.  Sometimes I get them, sometimes not (yet).

As I mentioned, I started to write a short story about Tierney and Flood (in Patrick Tierney's words) and although I'm only halfway through his life, I've already typed 14 pages.  When I'm not sure of the actual facts, "he" writes that he can't remember the exact details so readers know that information may not be true or correct.  I've added quite a few images including snippets of actual documents and newspaper articles, photos, maps, town photos, and a pretty view of the cemetery where Margaret and little Mary are buried.  The images bring to life the written text and to me make the story easier to read and comprehend.

After years of research I sometimes have a "gut feeling" as I suppose most of us experience.  While I don't know that we will determine who the Clark people are, I do believe there is something else to find in Dundee.  I will come back here if I do find anything notable.

[Lisa in California]

After taking a break from the Tierney's, I believe there is a chance that I found a clue.

Summing up some of the facts of my husband's ancestors found in this thread and another very long thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=646830.36:
Patrick Tierney (parents were Bernard Tierney and Mary Clarke) married Margaret Flood (parents were Mark Flood and Jane Duffy) in 1869, St. Peter's Church, Dundee.  Witnesses were Michael Clarke and Elizabeth Flood. Patrick and Margaret were born in Ireland; according to a relative, Patrick was orphaned and lived in Scotland.

...There looks to be two families, very similar:

One family group (helps father's occupation is more distinctive). All born in Ireland apart from grandson Thomas. Wondered whether this is the Michael and Elizabeth (mother or daughter) Clark you had as witnesses in 1869?:

1861:
John Clark 53 mason
Elisabeth Clark 51
Thomas Clark 22
Elisabeth Clark 17
Michael Clark 14 Cabinet Maker Apr
John Clark 11
Thomas Clark 1 grandon b. Dundee
...and 5 millworker Lodgers
     Address: 19-21 Blackness Rd, Liff and Benvie

1871:
John Clarke 63 mason
Elisabeth Clarke 64
Michael Clarke 24 joiner
John Clarke 21 bobbin carrier
...and 5 other Lodgers
    Address: 29 Blackress Rd Brown's Buildings, Dundee...

Monica 

~~~~~~~~------------------
Could this be Patrick in 1861, living with Clark relatives?
1861 Dundee...Census - address: "Foless Land"
Mgt Clark, age 49 (born c1812), born Ireland
Bridget Clark, age 28 (born c1833), born Ireland, Sister
Rose Dunn, born c1835, Ireland
John Sherid, born c1837, Ireland
Patrick Farny, born c1839, Ireland   
James Flud, born c1840, Ireland
James Better, born c1845, Ireland
  Except for Bridget, all were lodgers.

I just viewed the image and
Farny could be Tarny or something similar
Flud could be Flood
Sherid could be Fluid or Fluld or?

1871 Dundee Census, 29 Blackress Rd Brown's Buildings
Margaret Clark, age 55, born c1816, Ireland
(other names are listed along with)
Elisabeth Clarke, age 51
Ann Clarke, age 28 (boarder)
Rose C Dunn, age 35, born c1836, Ireland

So, it appears that the Margaret Clark from the 1861 census was living at 29 Blackress Road in 1871.

Wondering if John Sherid could be John Flood, I found the following:
1851 Dundee census, address "2 Barrons Court West Port"
Bean Carty, female, age 61, born c1790, Ireland
Living with her (along with several other people) were
John Flood, age 18, born c1833, Ireland
Margret Flood, age 16, born c1835, Ireland
Jean Flood, age 11, born c1840, Ireland

Could this Margret be Patrick's wife?      

Apologies for the very long post.   

[MonicaL]

Lisa, just seen this new post. Give me a day or so to go back to the beginning and re read for my comments! Hopefully new eyes will also help too 

Monica