Author Topic: Help needed Irish McGowan's Crest  (Read 8790 times)

Offline Boere

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Re: Help needed Irish McGowan's Crest
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 01 May 12 14:50 BST (UK) »
Hi David,
Thanks again for you effort.
After reading your post I downloaded 1911 version.
This version shows with right leg raised and with a collar.
Why the difference I don't know yet.
Last question I think.
Do you know the significance of the rope the talbot is standing on?
Our pelican is drawn as Plate 13.
Cheers Will
McGowan: Maghera, Coleraine, Co Derry, Ireland.
Tilsley: Nantwich, Cheshire, UK.
Shattock: Bristol, Gloustershire, UK.
Warren: Cork, Co Cork, Ireland.

Offline davidbappleton

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Re: Help needed Irish McGowan's Crest
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 01 May 12 18:30 BST (UK) »
Hi, Will!

I know of no special significance of the rope attached to the collar of the talbot.  I have no doubt that some people have tried to attach some particular significance to the rope (as they have to the chain on the unicorn supporter of the Royal Arms of Great Britain), but 99 times out of 100 they'd be wrong.

I'm glad that I've been able to be of some assistance to you.

David

Offline Boere

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Re: Help needed Irish McGowan's Crest
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 01 May 12 19:11 BST (UK) »
Hi David,
Its not the rope to the collar that I am interestef in, its what he is standing on.
Thanks for all your help, I have learnt a a lot.
Cheers Will
McGowan: Maghera, Coleraine, Co Derry, Ireland.
Tilsley: Nantwich, Cheshire, UK.
Shattock: Bristol, Gloustershire, UK.
Warren: Cork, Co Cork, Ireland.

Offline davidbappleton

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Re: Help needed Irish McGowan's Crest
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 01 May 12 22:22 BST (UK) »
Ah!  He's standing on a "torse," or wreath.  Parker's A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry defines it as:

"Wreath. ... the wreath, technically speaking, is the twisted band composed of two strips of gold or silver lace and silk by which the crest is joined to the helmet; though some wreaths of the fifteenth century were of four tinctures. It is sometimes, but improperly, called a roll, at others a torse. It was, perhaps, copied by the crusaders from the wreathed turbans of the Saracens."

The torse usually consists of the first metal (argent or or) and color (azure, gules, sable, vert, or purpure) of the shield.  In some times and places (e.g., Ireland), the torse is usually argent and gules.

In this case, where only the crest (as opposed to the complete achievement of arms, with shield, helm, torse, mantling, and crest) is being shown, the torse is the thing that let's us identify it unequivocally as a crest.

David


Offline Boere

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Re: Help needed Irish McGowan's Crest
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 02 May 12 09:31 BST (UK) »
Hi David,
Looks like  Heraldry Course 101 completed now for 102.
From the above do you think that this was a full Coat of Arms or only a Crest Badge.
Fairbairns brief description leads me to think that it is the latter.
I iniatially though that the talbot was on the shield, obviously now I know it was not.
Cheers Will
McGowan: Maghera, Coleraine, Co Derry, Ireland.
Tilsley: Nantwich, Cheshire, UK.
Shattock: Bristol, Gloustershire, UK.
Warren: Cork, Co Cork, Ireland.

Offline davidbappleton

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Re: Help needed Irish McGowan's Crest
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 02 May 12 14:46 BST (UK) »
What you have here (from the gravestone) is simply a crest.  There would (or at least, should) have been an accompanying coat of arms, but without more information it would be impossible to tell what the coat of arms looked like, as crests seldom bear any direct relation to the charges on the shield.  (Germany is a notable exception, where the crests often consist of major elements of the coat of arms.)

David

Offline Boere

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Re: Help needed Irish McGowan's Crest
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 02 May 12 16:36 BST (UK) »
Hi David,
All very inconclusive until I can find complete images of the two Coats of Arms.
Thanks for your time and effort.
Cheers Will
McGowan: Maghera, Coleraine, Co Derry, Ireland.
Tilsley: Nantwich, Cheshire, UK.
Shattock: Bristol, Gloustershire, UK.
Warren: Cork, Co Cork, Ireland.