Pentland - Uprichard, Gibson, Morrow. Ballyworkan.

[legal_translator]

I was very interesting to see the various Pentland postings and have just joined RootsChat to be able to post my query. I know very little about my Pentland ancestors, as I have never managed to do research locally.

My great grandmother Harriet Campbell (b. 1852 Woolwich) was the daughter of Joseph Campbell and Mary Pentland. The father came from Drumcree and I presume the mother did too (or from that area).

According to the census, Mary Pentland was born in 1820. Her husband Joseph Campbell, born about 1823, joined the Royal Artillery in 1847. Their first child was born about 1842 so they must have married in about 1841. Their other children were Mary Ann, Elizabeth, James, Joseph and Margaret.

So if anyone has a record of a Mary Pentland born 1820 who could be my ancestor I would be very grateful to find out more information on her family, to take the line back further if possible.

[Colin Y]

Hi

I was in Christchurch NZ last week visiting the grave of my Great Aunt when I saw an Uprichard grave nearby.

I took a photo.... any interest?

Colin

[RedRover]

Hey Roxanna:  I noted several references to Alexander Pentland/Pentleton.

remember at this time "freeholder" meant you could vote

Barony of O'Neiland-West-Registered Freeholders - Page 39
No 1819
Freeholder Pentleton, Alexander
Place of Abode Ballyworkin
Name of Landlord Mr. Bennison [my note that there is a Bennison Pentland later on in this place]
Names and Lives or other Tenure:  Alexander, John & George Pentleton
Date of Registry 19 Novr 1818
---
1826
Elector's Name Pendleton, Alexander
Place of Abode Ballyworkin
Parish Drumcree
Observations:  [note: much is illegible to me, but] "No registry or certificate produced although required [note:if you could not produce this you could not vote] and that ----- asked for whom he voted he stated Brownlow not withstanding ---- his vote is ---- for Mr Verner  ... rejected [note: his vote was, in any case, rejected]
---
Application to Register Freehold - June 1829
No 785
Alex Pentland
Ballyworkan
[does not show whether it was registered or rejected]
----
I am not sure how my Thomas Pentland got his land in Ballyworkan, but I know that one of his son's , Jeremiah, inherited from his Uncle William Gibson.  I am still looking for "where" & "when" father Thomas and kids includ Jeremiah were born, just assuming all the kids were born in Ballyworkan since their mom and dad were married there.  So I am following the Ballyworkan trail and found the early reference to Alexander, John & George.

[worldlywanderer]

Compliments of the season to all. I'm back in  the UK momentarily (too cold to stay long) and busy adding to my Pentland archive. Once again toying with the mystery of the Midlothian connection with Ireland which founded the Pentland colony there from which so many Pentland families in the Americas are descended. Reading the latest contributions I am motivated to share a couple of thoughts.

I see the Armor name mentioned in earlier posts; are contributors aware of the close connection between the Pentland and Armor, Armour,  Armer families in Gilmerton and Lasswade, so close I would be prepared to bet there is only one line which anyone using both names together could have come from?

The origins of the Blackhall Pentlands have often been speculated upon and I assume (stupid thing to do) that everyone is aware that one of the few authenticated grants of Pentland Arms was made to a member of that family - almost certainly connecting him to a Pentland family in Perth Scotland. I am gathering information on that connection prior to some research in NAS in the New Year so if anyone can add to the knowledge base their help would be very welcome.

On the origins of the Pentland name I have serious doubts about the claimed Viking connection. Most evidence points to the name being geonimic and originating in the Pentland Hills. There is no need to repeat the scholarly views of the roots of the names in North, South West and Eastern Scotland, they have been sufficiently well aired in the past.

As for the so called septs they are, so far as I can see, all related to attempts by parish clerks to spell unfamiliar names which were said to them by illiterate parishioners and sometimes by clerks who were none too well educated themselves. There are examples of more that one spelling (Paintland and Pentland for example) being used within one generation of a single family in a single parish.

In my research I have found only a couple of significant groups of Pentlands in Scotland whose line has not yet been traced back to Midlothian; Berwickshire and Fife being the examples I have in mind. If anyone knows of others I would be very interested to hear about them.

This idea is probably not new but has anyone considered developing an invitation only forum for Pentland researchers which includes access to a private online tree? Posting all of one's research online has more than one obvious downside but continual repetition of known and proven information does not add to knowledge instead it delays further research.

Such a shared tree would also enable the correction of many mistakes regularly taken as fact because they are repeated online and in print. An excellent example would be the George E. Pentland book which includes much excellent material about the Canadian and American branches of his family but makes the connection back to Carrington based on easily refuted claims about Canongate Coachmasters and Burntisland boatmen. Despite this, because the book was written by a schoolmaster and published it is often taken as Holy writ.

Such a forum may also develop a level of knowledge and expertise on matters Pentland that it could eventually do more than simply refute childish claims of chieftainship and annul ambitions armigerous. We are about to embark on a new decade, let's make it a positive and fruitful one in taking forward the story of the Pentland family.

[Roxanna]

Happy Holidays Red Rover and thank you for the information.
I am especially interested in the Alexander Pentland/Pendleton name you offered, as I am trying to locate an Alexander and Elizabeth Pentland from the Seagoe Parish area, probably born between 1770 and 1780, and who are the parents of George Pentland who moved from Drumgor to Derrykeevan.  Is there anyway to determine if the George Pentland you refer to in 1818 is still there in 1829?  The George Pentland in my line appears to have moved to Derrykeevan before 1830. 

And Worldlywanderer, I think a posting of trees online, and sharing information should be considered.   It holds the potential to be very productive for anyone researching Pentlands out of the North Ireland area, and may lead to establishing a link to Scotland.  Any ideas how it could be accomplished?

Best,
Roxanna

[RedRover]

Hey Roxanna:  Further to my post, it is not clear from the Freeholder's list I talked about as to whether John and George are children or "other" in relation to Alexander, but I noted there is no female person mentioned in his lives list...
 so if John & George are children, the mother is perhaps deceased?
as for potential mothers ...
 there is an Alexander Pentland marriage to "Eliza McWatters" 1826, listed in Co Down  perhaps a second wife?
there is (in the Belfast Registry 1810 Volume 4) a reference of a marriage in Banbridge of a Mr Alexander Pentland to a Miss Murney, perhaps the first wife?
but although the townlands are close by, I am going to work the the Ballyworkan thing.  I don't know why Alexander did not continue in Ballyworkan, but I noted in the Freeholder's list Proni D/1928/F/99 that his vote for a candidate was rejected because he did not produce a "certificate" for his land - it appears that he was also voting for the "other" candidate (the one who did not win, at least that year).  Ah got to love a mystery.  Let me know if you find anything else or perhaps we can fly to Drumcree or Seagoe or Mullavilly for that matter and scour the records together for Pentland!

[Colin Y]

Aha! Some determination, clarity perhaps and ways forward! I like it!

I hope you all had a great Christmas... perhaps that and the new decade ahead are what prompts ideas of greater mutual working.

I am all in favour. There is a private Pentland Tree on Ancestry which I have been involved with and am an invited member to, though I am not a member of Ancestry. I dont suggest we go there!

I am looking at logging the movements of some of my families, perhaps on Google Earth. Anyone got any expertise they would be willing to share? It might link nicely with what you suggest. I spent 8 weeks in the S Hem in Sept - Nov 09, meeting my NZ and Oz Pentlands all of whom would I feel sure want to join in... ;-)?

I have tried a yahoo group but it wouldnt be of much use for what is described. However I have another correspondent who is using a potentially promising approach on the www which is neither machine dependant nor open. It provides a tree and a database linked. I'll look it up and relate back what I can. Security is vital, as ever, isnt it?

Can we usefully establish a chat link of some kind? Google or Skype perhaps?

I do like the concept of Pentland being derived from Pict - land, and the P Hils, Firth and Forth are surely too spread geographically to be named for a person whereas a people might claim them and thus have named them or recognition/association may hgave made the names obvious and common usage made them permanent? I dont think we can or should totally discount the viking tale. There may be an element of truth in it and again Orkney was an area inhabited by Pictish people... wasnt it? So Pict-land and a later illiterate vicar (or 3!) or a 'bror scootish/gallic' speaker may each have given us our name... as well as a dozen others we can read in the Ulster records - Pencaitland, Pentlon, Penland, Pendleton all occur and in some cases can be seen to be scribish errors even in the 19th C.

Open minds are what we need - no closed doors. Corroboration without reinventing the wheeel? Perhaps we ought to start with a SWAT analysis to clear up some focus of what our strengths are - People (us), places (where we are), Time (that we have), Expertise (Platforms), Knowledge (of the who's, the where's and when's). Otherwise we could end up duplicating existing data or work.

I would suggest that Google might be the right place to start. I could set up a Google address which we could all have the address and password for? We could chat there and send one another data via that address. It would thus provide a level of privacy which we can keep in our own hands by only giving the address and p/w to those who agree to keep what we share there private and not to publish...?

What do you think guys?

Colin

[worldlywanderer]

Hi Folks,

the discussion of our semi-mythical roots can wait for later as I see there is support for the idea of a web based group which is potentially much more important. There are a couple of places I've looked which might be useful - Tribal pages springs to mind as one. It may even be that we think outside the box and look at establishing a private network on Facebook, Bebo or some-such so called "social networking" site. There is a genealogy database programme I've seen which might be useful but it apparently requires the agreement of the server owner to use it as  it requires the up;load of a programme to the web site - google - phpgedview.sourceforge.net for more information. Cyndi's List may also produce sime ideas.

I'm not too familiar with the intricacies of Rootsweb but isn't what we are trying to do what they are all about? A presence here is important, as is one on Genes Reunited, simply because they are easiest to find and we need to be found since out there may be people with valuable information. If it were possible to have something like a private room where information could be exchanged without running the risk of it being hijacked then I'd be all for basing ourselves here.

The big problem is that we may share some genealogy research experience but perhaps not thhe experience or motivation to get it with rapidly developing technology which is certainly outside my comfort zone - My kids bought an ipod and digital camera for Alison and I this Christmas and she bought me a Kindle so we are fully electronically equipped for our next trip (Africa) if I ever master how to use them all. The trouble is the amount of time that takes is horrifying - I'd rather read a sixteenth century will!

I like the Skype idea too but couldn't that be integrated with the facebook type site, particularly if we could co-ordinate times for live discussion - I'd be able to participate wherever our travels take us - even with a webcam, thanks to my mini travel computer which after a year I have discovere dhow to turn on. What we need is a genealogically curious techy.

An example of the freedom such a system would provide is with certain research I've done which i simply will not reveal on a public site as it would open the floodgates for stupid assumptions and make objective use of the material much more difficult. in a private arena with trustworthy collaborators I would take a totally different view.

[RedRover]

I have mixed feelings about the issue of privacy.  I agree that privacy must be maintained for the "living".  I also know that access to records that have been most valuable and meeting 'cousins', however distant along the tree or geographically based, has been as a direct result of open records, open forum, open trees etc etc etc.  This makes privacy problematic.  The platform we are seeking must then reflect the boundaries that we are willing to agree to as a collective, not as an individual.  Things like do we use our real names, are we obliged to do look ups or research for fellow members in our own locale, what is the cost of maintaining the site, what are the rules for sharing information that we consider 'personal', how do we decide who can join, who is willing to moderate (decide the difference between a good or bad controversy and/or flaming) or or give tech support.  Most importantly, what is our goal or philosophy: to trudge the paths of our ancestors in an effort to link ourselves to family and to history and to flesh out the stories, documents and photos to be shared with future generations.

Speaking for myself, I have been a member of both paid and unpaid sites for many years.  Most of the "information and the "contacts", I have enjoyed have been through ancestry.ca and .uk, roots, LDS Family History Library, Griffiths, PRONI, etc

For my nickle, I would like to see how we could use sites *like* ancestry because they are user-friendly and willing to expand the genre.  Let's face this fact, as new records become available, genealogy sites like ancestry will provide the technology to let patrons add-to, link and cross link the records.  Moreover, anyone 'new' researching is going to hit the big sites at one time or another for a free trial and it will be our duty to bring them into the fold for general Pentland intro, exchange, education and to support them in their search because... eventually one individual's energy and their family search will pull the final thread between Ireland and Scotland.

The other best nickle I have spent is taking online course(s) through the National Institute for Genealogical Studies in partnership with the University of Toronto (Ontario, Canada).  The basic course support analysis, record keeping, electronic and paper sources, methodology, but most important to me it stresses the need for proper sourcing.  Sourcing allows other people to review the record and to decide for themselves whether it has merit.  Hey, I am an anthropologist so truths to me are subjective!! Further sourcing gives proper attention to those who did the work or those who maintain the right to certain original property such as family photos etc.