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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Amber1867 on Friday 20 January 12 19:15 GMT (UK)
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I was wondering if anyone could help me solve a family mystery? My great-grandfather was born in Camden, London, England in abt. 1889. His parents were Charles Arthur Brown and Sarah Ann Brown (Smith). He also had a younger brother named William. I found on Ancestry that they were baptised at St. Pancras on February 10th, 1892. According to my great-grandfather he came to Canada with a sister Nellie. The only record I have of her is her marriage record to Sidney Croucher; she also lists her brother as her father. I would like to find out what happened to Sarah and Charles as I cannot find records on them after the baptismal certificate in 1892 at St. Pancras. They did not come to Canada and also if Nellie is indeed related. (I have a feeling she may not be as the last name Brown is common). As for William, he never made it to Canada with Henry (Harry) or Nellie. I believe that my great-grandfather never knew that he had a brother. I guess I would just like any tips on where to go from here.
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Hi Amber and welcome to Rootschat! I'm sorry but I'm finding your post rather confusing!
Is Henry (Harry) your great grandfather? At the beginning you say Nellie is his sister but then you seem to doubt whether she's related. Also I'm not sure why the subject title is St Pancras Workhouse Records - do you think Charles and Sarah might have ended up there?
I wish you luck in your research, Smith and Brown are difficult names!
Heather
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Hi Heather,
Henry James Brown is my great-grandfather, he also went by Harry. When he came to Canada he came with people who weren't his relatives on a Salvation Army ship. (Don't know the name of the ship). He came with Nellie and neither his parents or William. I'm thinking that since William and Henry were baptised on the same day at St. Pancras Workhouse they may have been dropped off there. He (Henry) was 3 years old, so I think either William died or was adopted somewhere else, and maybe Henry had no memory of him. I have no proof other than the fact nobody in my family knew of a William. As for Nellie, I found a record of her birth to a Sarah and Charles Brown. However, there was two couples from Camden/Holy Trinity area with the name of Charles and Sarah Brown. The ones I am looking for always signed their name along with their middle name. So a Charles and Sarah Brown had a Nellie Eliza Brown, but I cannot tell if it was the same Charles Arthur and Sarah Ann Brown who are my great-great grandparents. Since Nellie didn't know her parents or where she was born (according to her marriage certificate) then I am not sure she was actually related. I think if I can figure out what happened to Charles Arthur and Sarah Ann Brown I could piece it together. I think St. Pancras might have the answer but the image is not available to me (the one with their baptismal record) so I don't know if it says anything about why they were there. I hope this helps, sorry for the confusion.
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Hello Amber,
And welcome to Rootschat
I am not sure if you have this information, but here go's
1891 census
9, Sponden Road, Tottenham
Charles A Brown / Head / age 34 / Butcher / born Clapham
Sarah A Brown / wife / age 27 / born Old Kent Road
Henry James Brown / age 3 / born Camden
William Brown / son / age 1 / born Kentish Town
1901 census
Henry James is a 11 year old Inmate at
The Herefordshire and District Working Boys Home and Industrial School
No sign of William
According to the 1911 census of Canada, he arrived there in 1904
JeannieR
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Hi JeannieR,
Thanks for the info, I have nothing on Henry James and William Brown between 1892-1904. Where did you find the info about The Herefordshire and District Working Boys Home and Industrial School?
Thanks so much...this is really helping.
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Hello Amber
I got the information from Ancestry
Piece 2482 / Folio 105 / page 3
Definitely state Henry James Brown , born London
I am afraid I haven't as yet found William.....
I do not think Nellie Eliza is a member of your family. Her father was a labourer, according to the Baptism record... will keep trying to find some more info. It would be good to know when they entered the Workhouse and why....
JeannieR
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This is soo exciting...I feel we are getting close. My great-grandfather (Henry) always said Nellie was his sister. But I think he might not have known the truth being so young at a workhouse. I also really want to know why the boys were baptised at St. Pancras (I couldn't find admission records on Ancestry for them). Maybe William's name was changed and he was adopted out. If only that baptismal image was available it might say more.
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Hello and welcome from me too :).
Was Henry's wife named Eva Ellen Fuller?
Polarbear
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Yes Eva was his wife...my Great-Grandmother.
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Henry and Eva were married in Detroit Michigan and Henry also gave his father's name as Henry? Can you tell us where the info about Charles Arthur being his father comes from? Do you have a birth date for Henry? Does it match the info on the Canada 1911 census?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FCG4-4C6
PB
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The info about Charles Arthur came from a great-aunt who was interested in the family tree. She is in her 90's now. I asked her where she got the info and she couldn't remember. I just assumed she must have got it from Henry James. His birthday is November 13th, 1889...and yes it matches the Canadian census in 1911. As for Nellie, my great-aunt remembered that she lived with Henry James somewhere on Delaware St. in Chatham once they arrived in Canada.
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Oh and I forgot...his birthday is on an old family tree portrait. The last inscription is 1933, so I assume it was done by his wife, Eva.
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OK, then. It is most unfortunate that you are dealing with such a common name in Brown.
IMHO, the info about Charles being the father appears to be, at this point, heresay and should be treated with caution. That both Nellie and Henry named a Henry as their father may, of course, be Nellie naming her brother, as you pointed out earlier, and Henry making up a name but you should consider that they may have actually remembered who their father was. And Henry also apparently had a name for his mother. I think it would at this point be prudent to explore a family with Henry and Sarah as parents, if only to rule out a Henry as the father. We wouldn't want you to go up the wrong tree.
I'm still a bit confused about Nellie and her relationship (or not) to Henry in that you mentioned you weren't sure but then indicated later that a rellie said they were living together in Chatham at some point? Do you have contact with any descendents of Nellie and Sidney to help corroborate your info?
If you can find the shipping manifest again that would probably be helpful here. I have had a quick look but haven't turned up anything contrete.
This is a tough one, for sure.
PB
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Hi
Information on the Hereford and District Working Boys Home and Industrial School, Bath Street, Hereford
http://www.missing-ancestors.com/hereford_and_district_working%20boys%20ind%20sch%20info%20page.htm
It might be worth contacting Herefordshire Archives to see if they hold any records or know the possible whereabouts of records for the institution.
http://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/3584.asp
Regards
Valda
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So I had a break through on Nellie today. Apparently she was adopted or sponsored by a Heath family, along with Henry James. So she went by Nelly Heath when she entered Canada until she got married. I contacted the Salvation Army to see about a passenger list but it does not go past 1912 in Canada. Now I just have to figure out what happened to William, Charles, and Sarah between 1892-1904.