Author Topic: Genetic Split Across Offas Dyke  (Read 11252 times)

Offline supermoussi

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,251
    • View Profile
Genetic Split Across Offas Dyke
« on: Sunday 16 June 13 10:58 BST (UK) »
One of the results of a Welsh DNA study broadcast on a recent Welsh TV programme displayed a difference between the Y-DNA of men either side of Offa's Dyke. Offa's Dyke was built by King Offa of the Mercians (Anglo-Saxons mixed with Britains) to keep the Welsh out of England:-

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/daysout/properties/offas-dyke/history-and-research/

It was found that whereas about 50% of men on the Welsh side of the border were part of the "L21" Y-DNA Haplogroup, this dropped to only about 25% of men on the English side of the border. The following image represents the % of men that were found to be "L21" as the red segment of each pie chart:-

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/lzux.jpg/

Offline sallyyorks

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,174
    • View Profile
Re: Genetic Split Across Offas Dyke
« Reply #1 on: Monday 29 July 13 17:37 BST (UK) »
Your second link of "Dr. Grierson's Laptop, from the tv show Corff Cymru"
does not show a map of Wales or of the full extent of Offas Dyke (does anyone really know what Offas Dyke was ? )
Most Welsh people live in South Wales but the link only shows pie charts for North and Mid  Wales  ???


Offline supermoussi

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,251
    • View Profile
Re: Genetic Split Across Offas Dyke
« Reply #2 on: Monday 29 July 13 18:04 BST (UK) »
http://www.castlewales.com/offa.html
http://www.nationaltrail.co.uk/offasdyke/article.asp?PageId=3&ArticleId=61

I can't do much about what was displayed on Dr Grierson's laptop but I wouldn't be surprised if North Wales was studied in particular because South Wales saw a large influx of English people to the coal mines and iron foundries during the Industrial Revolution. Hence, North Wales contains more men that belong to  "Old Welsh" lines than South Wales does.




Offline clayton bradley

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,060
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
    • View Profile
Re: Genetic Split Across Offas Dyke
« Reply #3 on: Monday 29 July 13 18:42 BST (UK) »
There is a very good book on Offa's Dyke by David Hill and Margaret Worthington, cb
Broadley (Lancs all dates and Halifax bef 1654)


Offline supermoussi

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,251
    • View Profile
Re: Genetic Split Across Offas Dyke
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 11 August 13 16:55 BST (UK) »
With hindsight many people will not know much about the L21 aka S145 Y-DNA Haplogroup so here is a very brief explanation.

R1b

Around 15,000 years ago a man was born in Middle-East/West Asia region who was the first person to have the Y-DNA mutation referred to as the M343 SNP. He passed this mutation in his DNA to his sons, and they in turn to all of their direct male descendants. Any male now carrying this M343 SNP mutation is a descendant of this Middle-Eastern/West-Asian man and is said to belong to the R1b Haplogroup.

As time has passed by R1b men have had SNP mutations of their own thus forming multi-layered sub-groups of the R1b Haplogroup creating what is known as the R1b Phylogenetic Tree. A high level diagram of this can be found here with the original old M343 SNP mutation 3rd from top and progressively more recent SNP mutations as you follow the tree's branches down:-

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/83659368/homepage/name/993461?type=sn

High level SNPs are typically found around the mediterranean, e.g., V88 is found mostly in North Africa, and it is not until you get down to the M269 SNP that you find a strong European connection. M269 is estimated to have first existed 10,000 yrs ago and is thought to have formed in the Balkans before spreading north-west, perhaps up the River Danube and round the Mediteranean shore (rivers and coasts are easily navigable unlike mountains and forests), into Europe some time after the last Ice Age.

Men carrying the M269 SNP have since spread throughout Western Europe, becoming the dominant population west of the River Rhine, and can be split into 3 main Western European groups:-

  S21 or U106 - M269 men who also have a newer SNP mutation first known as S21 but also known as U106
  S116 or P312 - M269 men who also have a newer SNP mutation known as P312
  M269 - M269 men without either of the newer S21/U106 or S116/P312 mutations


As M269 has been in W. Europe longer than either of S21/U106 or S116/P312 it has spread to a slightly wider area than the other 2 groups. The areas where the 3 groups are concentrated can be summarised as:-

  M269 - throughout all W Europe
  S21/U106 - skewed to the north of Europe (N Germany, Denmark, Holland, Britain, etc)
  S116/P312 - skewed to the south and west (Germany, France, Spain, Britain, etc)

and S116/P312 can be broken down further into sub-groups including:-

  S28/U152 - concentrated in SW Europe
  L21/S145 - concentrated in NW Europe from the German/French border up the Rhine, through Holland, Belgium and N.France and into the British Isles
  S116/P312 - throughout all W Europe

A diagram attempting to show the overlap of these main sub-groups of European R1b can be seen here (note that the area where there is maximum overlap of these groups is France):-

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1994/r1b1b2confluence.gif

Offline supermoussi

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,251
    • View Profile
Re: Genetic Split Across Offas Dyke
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 11 August 13 16:58 BST (UK) »
L21/S145

L21/S145 is the haplogroup that was the focus of the Offa's Dyke study and makes up c.25% of the British male population. It is found right across England, Wales and Ireland whereas haplogroups like S21/U106 and I are skewed towards the East. As S21/U106 and I are also found along the northern coast of Europe they are widely thought to be associated with relatively newer immigrants to Britain such as Angles, Saxons and Vikings whereas L21/S145 is thought to be more associated with earlier immigrants such as the Gallic/Belgic tribes, etc.

When you consider that Offa's Dyke was dug to mark the partition between the new "Anglo-Saxon" filled England and "old Brittanic" Wales a difference in the ratio of L21/S145 men either side of the border is of note (if further studies support this), i.e., 50% of men on the Welsh side of the the Dyke are L21/S145 whereas only 25% of those on the English side are suggests an interesting genetic difference.

The L21/S145 mutation is thought to have first occurred 4-5000 yrs ago around the the French/German/Swiss borders and spread mainly north west into Britain. Its descendants have had many further SNP mutations and form their own phylogenetic tree:-

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/30100016/homepage/name/816386?type=sn

Many of these subgroups have only recently been found and are currently being studied whereas others like M222 have been known about for a while.

L21/S145 men do not share ANY common STR signature and the average L21 man is very little different to the average R1b man STR-wise. The only way of finding if you are L21 is by taking an SNP test such as the £129 Chromo2 Raw YDNA or $199 Geno2 tests:-

http://www.britainsdna.com/products/ydna
http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/browse/productDetail.jsp?productId=2001246&gsk&code=MR20936


Other branches of R1b-M269 also have their own sub-trees a few of which are as follows:-

  S21/U106 - http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree-Europe-G.gif
  S116/P312 - http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/23219057/homepage/name/546771?type=sn
  DF27 - http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/88911960/homepage/name/288528?type=sn


Hopefully this explains what I meant by "L21" to the uninitiated a bit but it is the tip of the iceberg and apologies in advance for any typos/over-simplifications.  :)

Offline Tricia_2

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,267
  • "Family ~ link to our past, bridge to our future"
    • View Profile
Re: Genetic Split Across Offas Dyke
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 29 December 13 00:43 GMT (UK) »
Hi :)

I find this is a very interesting subject, both because of my own genealogy and my passion for history in general.

My brother's DNA tested positive for L21+
Worcs / Glos: Neal Neale Jeynes Jeens Geans Harris Roper Ropier Colley Dyer Heeks Bayzand Hampton Bishop Cole Elton Littlehales McGowan
Glamorgam: Hampton Thornton Svombo Swambo Swanbo Keefe O Keefe Shanahan Shannon Doyle Maldoon Muldoon Davies Llewellyn Jones
Birmingham: Neale Sarjant Cole Hiley Berridge Tirebuck

Offline supermoussi

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,251
    • View Profile
Re: Genetic Split Across Offas Dyke
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 29 December 13 08:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi Tricia,

How far back and where have you traced your paternal line to?

Offline Tricia_2

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,267
  • "Family ~ link to our past, bridge to our future"
    • View Profile
Re: Genetic Split Across Offas Dyke
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 29 December 13 13:57 GMT (UK) »
Hi :)

Not very far, I'm afraid.
Indeed, it is because of the lack of a paper trail that we are so interested in the DNA.
We believe that the ancestry is Welsh and a positive L21 result is a step in the right direction.
I've had the Y-line and the autosomal DNA checked with FT DNA and have just received the Geno 2 kit. :)
Worcs / Glos: Neal Neale Jeynes Jeens Geans Harris Roper Ropier Colley Dyer Heeks Bayzand Hampton Bishop Cole Elton Littlehales McGowan
Glamorgam: Hampton Thornton Svombo Swambo Swanbo Keefe O Keefe Shanahan Shannon Doyle Maldoon Muldoon Davies Llewellyn Jones
Birmingham: Neale Sarjant Cole Hiley Berridge Tirebuck