Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester

[bananadoctor]

Dear Aniseed,

I am reserching the Brimmells, who were families of rope makers in Gloucester and elsewhere in the early to mid 1800s. I understand that you are interested as well. I have much information that I would like to share and believe that you may be a help to me. Please contact me at (*).

Bananadoctor

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[aghadowey]

Welcome to Rootschat. I've removed your email address in accordance with Rootschat policy but sent a PM (Persoanl Message) to let Aniseed know about your post.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=35927

[Aniseed]

Hi there bananadoctor! aghadowey has sent me a message to say you wanted to get in touch. I can't prove that I'm descended from the Gloucester Brimmells, but I think there's a strong possibility that I am. My Brimmell ancestor was William Brimmell, who was married in 1820 in London, and was listed as a Rope Maker at Mile End Road on his son William John Brimmell's baptism entry in the Church Register in 1822. That's what led me to the rope-making Brimmells in Gloucester.

If you post again a couple of times I can PM you or vice versa.

[bananadoctor]

Hi Aniseed!

Thanks for your prompt reply. Did your Mile End Road rope maker William Brimmell come from Gloucester or Bristol?

I have James Brimmell (1897-1870), William Brimmell (1797-1837), John Brimmell (1785-1859) and Thomas Brimmell (1805-1886) all originally rope makers living in Gloucester. Thomas went on to work in Worcester and Birmingham and John went to make rope in Tewkesbury.  William (the eldest of the brothers, if they were all brothers), may have been born in Bristol. James and William were definitely brothers. Their father may have been Benjamin Brimmell, who was also born in Bristol, but moved to Gloucester. There is a stong relationship between the Brimmells and rope making. How does your William fit in?

My ancestor was Henry Morgan Brimmell born out of wedlock to Elizabeth Brimmell (servant), sister of William Brimmell above). The father was Lieutenant-Colonel John Drigue Morgan, who was much too posh to get involved. Henry was raised by his Uncle William Brimmell in Gloucester and went on to make ropes in Worcester before a  career change. He was later left some money by Morgan in his will. Later Brimmells of this line always had Morgan as a middle name


I have much more information, but I am really seeking Elizabeth Brimmell's ancestors. I hope you have some information that may be of help to me.

Cheers,

bananadoctor

[Aniseed]

How exciting! I became fascinated by Henry Morgan Brimmell, and really went back into the history of John Drigue-Morgan and downloaded his will and transcribed it, but I never did find out which of William and James' sisters he'd been born to. Now I know it was Elizabeth, which I did suspect, because despite being born in about 1797, she didn't marry until 1831, by which time Henry Morgan would have grown up and presumably left home.

Sadly, I don't know who her father was. I have a strong suspicion it was John Brimmell, who was born in about 1764 and died in 1826. He was first a rope-maker, and then a victualler of The Harp public house. He married Lucy Hatton in 1818 and they had a daughter Harriet in 1825. I suspect John had a first wife and had at least 8 children with her, but I have no proof, alas, as no such marriage record has been found. If she did exist, then I strongly suspect she was called Matilda, as so many of the daughters of William, James, Thomas, John and their sisters were called Matilda, either as first or second names.

I was working alongside a person in Bristol, who I connected with on Ancestry, who personally searched through all the Parish Registers for Gloucester and was able to find no baptism records for William, John, James, Thomas, Elizabeth, Ann, Mary or any of them. I have no idea why that might be...they don't seem to be in the non-conformist registers either, because those are searchable on the Gloucester council website and those people don't appear on their database.

Mostly through wills, and marriage records, I have deduced that the children of John Brimmell (b. abt. 1764) were (all birth years are approximate):

John b.1786, married firstly Ann, and then Harriet Cole in 1855
Sarah b.1790, married John Gilbert Clarke in 1814
Mary b.1795, married Philip Walker in 1817
Elizabeth b.1797, married John Weale in 1831
William b.1797, married Maria Church (I think)
Thomas b.1806, married Sarah Phillips in 1825
Ann b.1806 married Thomas Davies in 1847
James b.1808 married Sarah Bradshaw in 1825

I can't emphasise enough that this is all conjecture on my part, as I tried to make sense of a mountain of disparate information. I've put together a very tentative family tree, just to try to make sense of all these relations, which I could email you if you'd be interested.

One other thing, is that the Family Search website has records for children born to an Edward Brimhall who married Hannah Turvey of Pershore in 1758. It's my guess that all the Gloucester Brimmells and also the Gloucester Brimall families are descended from him.

Sadly I don't know where my Mile End rope-making Brimmell came from, as in the 1841 census his son is living with his widowed mother, which is greatly frustrating for me! Equally I don't know how he fits in (if at all) but it was the unusual name of Brimmell, coupled with the unusual occupation of Rope Maker that led me to the Gloucester Brimmells.

[bananadoctor]

Hi Aniseed!

Thank you very much for your last message, as it sorts out for me what happened to Elizabeth Brimmell after she gave birth to Henry Morgan Brimmell. Where did she marry John Weale and how did you find this record? When did she die and where? Did she other children?

I had to look through all the patrish records in Gloucester for Henry Morgan's baptism before I found it in St Mary de Lode church on 27th July 1817. It is not recorded on any other list that I have looked at.

Like yourself and your contact in Bristol, I have been unable to find baptism information for the rope-making Brimmells in Gloucester, so I couldn't find their parents. This is odd, because Gloucester was the place of birth for many of them on later records, such as the census.

This is the information that I had as possible siblings for Elizabeth, William, Ann, Mary and James Brimmell

John Brimmell, b1785, married Ann
William Brimmell, b1797, married Maria Bradford
Mary Brimmell, b1798?, married Philip Walker
Elizabeth Brimmell, b?
Maria Brimmell, b1804?, married Thomas Ulett
Edward Brimmell, b1804?
Ann Brimmell, b1805
Thomas Brimmell, b1805, married Sarah Jackson
Hannah Brimmell, b1806
James Brimmell, b1807, married Sarah Bradshaw

There is a lot of guess work here. Your information as given me other directions to go in. I have Mary as a possible name for the mother of all the Brimmell siblings, which comes from an  IGI record associated with James.

I always thought the Brimmell who ran the Harp public house was from a different family. I found he married Mary Price in 1808 at Hempsted.

There are very many records of Brimmells in the Ledbury area of Herefordshire and this is where I suspected that they all came from originally.

I would be grateful if you could send more information.

Cheers,

Bananadoctor

[Aniseed]

Hello bananadoctor

I'm a bit at a disadvantage, because I looked into all this 2 years ago now, and my memory of it is pretty bad! I found the marriage of Elizabeth and John Weale on the Family Search website, I've just searched again, and it's here https://www.familysearch.org/search/recordDetails/show?uri=https://api.familysearch.org/records/pal:/MM9.1.r/97H9-R8R/p1

The fact that it's at Old Church, St Pancras, London might have put you off, but I'm fairly sure that Elizabeth's sister Mary Walker (formerly Brimmell) hosted the wedding as at that time she lived near to Old Church St Pancras at 8 South Crescent, Store Street, Bedford Square. Her husband Philip Walker is listed as a tailor in the records of the Sun Fire Insurance Office of 1832 (he was at Lower Thornaugh Street in 1826) at the National Archives (available online). Mary and her husband are living in South Crescent in the 1841 census. I also have her will, which gives that as her address, as far as I remember.

Mary also hosted weddings at Old Church St Pancras for her brother Thomas  Brimmell to Sarah Phillips, and I've a feeling there was another, but I can't find which sibling it was at the moment.

Elizabeth and John Weale had a daughter, Georgina Matilda Weale born in the Jul-Sep quarter of 1837 (so just coming into the period of birth certificates). The District is Pancras and the volume is 1 page 144 if you feel like buying her birth certificate, although at £10 a pop, that's a lot of money. You can find the family in the 1841 census, HO107 piece 685 book 7 folio 15 page 25. They are living at Upper Seymour Street, St Pancras, Middlesex. He is 36 and a Beadle. Elizabeth is 40, and neither of them were born in Middlesex. Georgiana is 3 and was born in Middlesex.

There is a death for John Weale in the First quarter of 1846 in the Pancras district, volume 1 page 266, and I suspect this is Elizabeth's husband, as in the 1851 census Elizabeth (age 54) is living with her sister Mary Walker (it's hard to read her age, it looks like 50 although it could be 56), although she's listed as 'servant' for some reason. The reference is HO 107, Piece 1509, Folio 49, Page 29. The address is 8 South Crescent, Bedford Square, Middlesex . Both are widows and Elizbeth is a cook by occupation. In 1851 Georgiana is at the St Pancras Female Charity School in Marylebone.

In the 1861 census, Elizabeth is still living with Mary, and this time is listed as 'sister'. Elizabeth is 64 and Mary is 66. Georgina is with them (age 23) as are Matilda (37) and Elizabeth (35) Clark, who I believe to be the daughters of Elizabeth and Mary's sister Sarah. They're listed as 'visitor' rather than niece, though. The reference for this is RG9 Piece 171, Folio 77 Page 51. They're all still living at 8 South Crescent.

There is an entry in the Death Index for Elizabeth Weale in the Oct-Dec quarter of 1861 District St Giles, volume 1b, page 279.

I have a copy of Mary Walker's will, who died in 1864 which says (amongst other things, it's very long!)

"And upon further Trust to pay to or permit and suffer my Niece Georgina Weale Daughter of my late Sister Elizabeth Weale to receive and take the Interest or Dividends thereof for and during the Term of her natural Life to and for her own sole and separate use and benefit free from and not to be subject to the Debts control or engagements of any Husband with whom she may intermarry and her receipt alone notwithstanding such Coverture and her receipt only to be from time to time a sufficient discharge for the same And from and after her decease Upon Trust to pay and divide the said sums of Seven hundred pounds and Three hundred Pounds unto and equally between such of the children of my said Niece Georgina Weale as being a son or sons shall live to attain the age of Twenty one years or being a Daughter or daughters shall live to attain that age or be sooner married and his her and their executors administrators and assigns in equal shares as Tenants in Common but in case there shall be no child of my said Niece Georgina Weale who being a son shall live to attain the age of Twenty one years or being a Daughter shall live to attain that age or be sooner married Then I Give the said sums of Seven hundred pounds and Three hundred Pounds unto my said Brother James Brimmell, his Executors administrators and assigns to and for his and their own absolute use and benefit."

It's a very long will, but it does mention several members of that family, and I'd be happy to transcribe it for you, although it may take me a while. I could post it in instalments! Let me know if you'd be interested. Alternatively you can buy it for yourself from the York office, but to be honest, I'm happy to transcribe it, and the writing's clear, so it would be accurate. I'd be very interested to know whether Henry Morgan Brimmell is mentioned, but it's getting late now, and I'm going to go to bed! I'll have a look tomorrow.

I'm sure there's more I know...ask me questions that might jog my memory!!! I guess the next question is whether or not Georgina married, I don't know if she did or not.

Hope this helps you in your quest.

[bananadoctor]

Dear Aniseed,

Thanks for staying up late to give me an appreciation of your reasoning as regards Elizabeth Brimmell's marriage to John Weale at St Pancras. I did look uo the marriage on IGI and I also fouind a birth for a Elizabeth Ann Brimmell.

Elizabeth Ann Brimmell
Christening:    Oct 1795 — ST MARY WHITECHAPEL,STEPNEY,LONDON,ENGLAND
baptism: 
death: 
burial: 
residence: 
parents: William Brimmell, Elizabeth

This made me think that John Weale, whose name suggests to me that he may have come from the south Herefordshire area, married this person born in London whose age would have been the same as our Elizabeth Brimmell. However, you have provided good evidence that the marriage in London was that of my Gloucester Elizabeth Brimmell. This begs the question 'Was she born in London and were her parents William and Elizabeth Brimmell?'. How would your Mile End Road William Brimmell fit into this?

I mentioned many Weales coming from south Hereforshire. This is because I have Weales in my ancestry. In fact, there are Weales in the family of the girl that married Henry Morgan Brimmell. The Astons lived at Redmarley D'Abitot in what was then Worcestershire (now Gloucestershire) on the Hereford border. This is where Henry got married. The plot thickens!

Again I thank you for your effort on my behalf. I will get back to you once I have digested all that you have sent me so far.

Very kind regards,

Bananadoctor
 

[Aniseed]

I found that family in St Mary Whitechapel, and so far I have 6 children of William and Elizabeth:
Elizabeth Ann Brimmell b. 1795 Whitechapel Mdsx
Hannah Brimell b. 1801 St Mary Whitechapel
Mary Brimmell b. 1804 Roadside Mile End Road, Whitechapel
Edward Brimmell b.1807 Roadside, Mile End Road, Whitechapel
James Brimmell b. 1809 Baker's Row, Whitechapel

I had tentatively slotted in a birth for my William in about 1797, but I couldn't find a record of it anywhere, so I have absolutely no proof, frustratingly. If it were true, then my William would be the brother of your Elizabeth, which would be pretty good. I'd also have a little more idea of where he came from. But at the moment, I have nothing...which is partly what led me to Gloucester. There was also a William Brimmell born in 1797 in Bristol to a Benjamin Brimmell...but I have no way of knowing if he was my one.

My William had two sons, William John, and Thomas James, both of which names are very common amongst the Gloucester Brimmells, but that's not proof of anything, is it? They're all very common names anyway at that time!

This is the point when I usually throw up my hands in the air and give up, as there are so many William Brimmells dotted about Bristol, Gloucester, Herefordshire and also a few in Cornwall that I don't know where to go. I'll have a think about it, though...it would be fanstastic to be able to get this sorted out, finally.