Author Topic: Daniel Brown Chenies 1784-1861 plus  (Read 8907 times)

Offline TomMat30

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Re: Daniel Brown Chenies 1784-1861 plus
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 04 December 14 00:49 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Maddie,

Glad to have been of a little help.  Just another thought.  From my records, I am sure that when I went right through the Chenies Register from 1812 onwards (ie new pre-printed book of 8 entries per page, new national standard), looking for the children of Daniel Brown and Ann, I noted every other christening for Brown (because I have a list of others besides yours).  This indicates to me that your people had no children christened in Chenies before Henry.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

I also have a list of Brown burials in the Chenies register, 1813 to 1912.  The following look to be of possible interest to you -

Page 5, entry 38, 1817 July 27, Sophia of Chenies, age 24.

Page 5, entry 39, 1817 August 19, Henry of Rickmansworth, age 2 months (parents not stated).

However, I think this Henry may be a "decoy", because your Henry was not christened until 2 Aug 1818.  The register entry for that event must be correct at 1818 (ie not my copying error) because
Page 7 (last) entry 56 was 20/4/1817
Page 9 entry 70 (for Henry) was 2/8/1818
Page 10 entry 74 was 25/11/1818
Page 10 entry 77 was 14/3/1819
I have no christenings recorded on page 8 (entries 57 to 64).
An August 1817 christening would have been on page 8,
or, at the latest, early on page 9 (starting at entry 65).
Thus the Rickmansworth Henry cannot be yours, because he had died before the christening date.

I have not trawled the internet for the Chenies Registers, and I could have missed an important item.  In the 1990s they were on film or fiche and, after a few hours winding them through, you can become somewhat dazed!

It's time for bed before I become dazed in 2014!

Kind regards,
George D.

Offline TomMat30

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Re: Daniel Brown Chenies 1784-1861 plus
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 04 December 14 11:55 GMT (UK) »
Good morning Maddie,

I have just checked what records are available for parishes in Bucks and Herts (because they might help both you and me).  It would appear that the only parish data currently searchable on the internet is from the Mormon indexes in Utah, derived from the Bishops' Transcripts (eg the IGI).  This means that for these counties, to obtain more detailed or confirmatory information, it is necessary to visit the Bucks Archives at Aylesbury as I did in the 1990s, or the Herts  Archives at Hertford, which I have also used.  Alternatively it is possible to ask county archives for a particular item, if possible based on their published or searchable indexes, and they will make a search for a fee.  Last week I asked Hertford by e-mail for two items at £5 + VAT = £6 each, from their on-line indexes, which they sent me by e-mail very quickly. A good service.  I hope this may help.

With kind regards,
George D.

Offline Maddie

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Re: Daniel Brown Chenies 1784-1861 plus
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 04 December 14 22:51 GMT (UK) »
Hi George

Thank you once again. It is unfortunate that very little is on line for Bucks records although as you say the IGI does cover some of Chenies & my apologies for giving you wrong info as I did actually have baby Henry's christening details & burial from the IGI but not the added info of the confirmation for his parents & the fact that his father was a Paper Maker. :-[

Now I am a little confused, which doesn't take much, :) as we have conflicting dates. IGI states Henry christened 2nd August 1818 & death/burial 19th August 1818, his christening matches with your own dates but his burial is a year later than your 1817 one although the mention of Rickmansworth does sound correct as that is where the family had moved from.

The burial for Sophia on July 27 aged 24 must be correct for my Sophia but was it 1817 or 1818. :-\ I'm guessing if baby Henry was 2 months old when he died in 1818 then Sophia must have also died in 1818. I hope I haven't completely confused you as much as I have completely confused myself. ;D

I have used Hertford Archives for Absent Votes lists before & yes their service was very good, I also use FindMyPast which has quite a good coverage of Hertfordshire records albeit they do still have quite a few records missing. Must admit the Family Search (LDS) site has always been good for Herts records even if they are only transcribed. ;)

Regards
Maddie
Beament, Hertfordshire, Middlesex, Canada, USA.
Brown, Herts & Berkshire
Hester, Oxfordshire
Wise, Berkshire
Dwight, Buckinghamshire
Warrell/Worrel, Bucks & Herts
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline TomMat30

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Re: Daniel Brown Chenies 1784-1861 plus
« Reply #12 on: Friday 05 December 14 10:54 GMT (UK) »
Good morning Maddie,

I am not surprised you are a bit confused! Things don't quite seem to add up.  However, I have re-checked the dates I gave you with the notes from my visits to Aylesbury and they agree. The sequence appears to be as follows.

1817  July 27  Burial of Sophia, age 24
1817  Aug 19  Burial of Henry, Rickmansworth, 2 months.

The above two are successive entries.

1818  Aug 2   Christening of Henry.

So, either the Henry of 1817 is not the one you are looking for, as I first suggested, or my 1817 dates are wrong, both of them, being successive entries, and should be 1818.  If 1818 is correct, then everything fits.

Since a visit to Aylesbury would not be very practicable, I will send an e-mail to Bucks and ask them whether they can check the year of those two burials.

With kind regards,
George D.


Offline TomMat30

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Re: Daniel Brown Chenies 1784-1861 plus
« Reply #13 on: Friday 05 December 14 11:40 GMT (UK) »
Hello Maddie - e-mail sent and auto-acknowledged, answer may take 10 days - Regards, George D.

Offline Maddie

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Re: Daniel Brown Chenies 1784-1861 plus
« Reply #14 on: Friday 05 December 14 13:33 GMT (UK) »
Hi George

That is very kind of you to go to the trouble for me, please don't incur any expenditure on my behalf.

If Bucks RO aren't able to give you an answer then I can always request a search from Bucks FHS at some time.

Regards
Maddie
Beament, Hertfordshire, Middlesex, Canada, USA.
Brown, Herts & Berkshire
Hester, Oxfordshire
Wise, Berkshire
Dwight, Buckinghamshire
Warrell/Worrel, Bucks & Herts
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Violet May

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Re: Daniel Brown Chenies 1784-1861 plus
« Reply #15 on: Monday 08 December 14 16:58 GMT (UK) »
 :DearTom I have been missing for a long time due to circumstances, now we are into another set which will obviously be coped with.  But if you are right you will have the answer to my dreams. And a Christmas gift too.  I have never found the date of Daniel Brown senior's death and you say it was 1864, do you know where it occurred? I have bought several death certificates but everyone was the wrong person, wrong occupation, wrong child witness etc etc.  You know I really am looking for his daughter Rosetta born 1825 who was my husband's great great grandmother, she disappeared after giving birth to our great grandfather who was put into the care of the Foundling Hospital in 1847. She had son Edward Warr Brown. When he went into the care of the Foundling Hospital his name was changed to William Hancock. That is why we are called Hancock. I would love to hear more about your ancestor from the Brown family. If you feel like telling me more please do so. Regards and thanks for the info   Beth and John Hancock
Brightwell London
Broadway London
Brooke Dewsbury Grimsby
Hockney Lincolnshire
Cottam Lincolnshire
Hancock Middlesex
Warlow London
Babington Lincolnshire
Vincent London

Offline TomMat30

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Re: Daniel Brown Chenies 1784-1861 plus
« Reply #16 on: Monday 08 December 14 20:52 GMT (UK) »
Good evening Violet May,

I'm sure you won't mind if I enjoy "putting you out of your misery".  So here goes:

Chenies Parish Register, Burials, 1812 onwards, page 55, entry 436:
1864, December 30, Daniel Brown, of London, 84 years, by Coroner's order for burial.

Death Certificate, 1865, Reg District: Kensington, Sub-district Kensington Town.
No 267 (in register)
When and where died: 1864 December, No 7 Kensington Park Terrace, North Kensington
Name and surname: Daniel Brown
Sex: Male
Age: 84 years
Occupation: Milkman & Labourer
Cause of death: Rupture of the heart  P M
Signature, description and residence of informant:
  Information received from Jas Bird, Coroner for Middlesex, Inquest held 29th December 1864
When registered: Thirtyfirst March 1865
Signature of registrar: C R Banner(?) Registrar

Everything fits together, so it is "98% plus" certain that these two are the same person.
The only oddity is the occupation (at that age in those days, and after being in an almshouse for many years), and the age seems to be some 4 years too high, being, from the censuses for Chenies:
1841, HO 107/46/10, Folio 5, page 4, age 55 (but rounded down)
1851, HO 107/1717/4, Folio 468, page 9, entry 37, age 67
1861, RG9/848/4, Folio 8, page 9,entry 54, age 77
So he should be 80 in 1864, not 84.

We must also ask why, after being in an almshouse in Chenies for many years, he should appear in London.

What I have not yet checked (because I have only just thought about it) is who was living at the Kensington address in 1861.

Another little question is whether he was living alone in 1864, so that nobody knew the date on which he had died - which of course is the reason for the inquest.

A bit more to search for is the coroner's record (which rarely survived) and possibly a newspaper report of the inquest (first find which newspaper).

There is a marriage record, No 853, in St Leonard, Shoreditch, on 4/6/1812, of Daniel Brown, bachelor and Ann Gates, spinster, both in that parish, and both signed.  Witnesses: William Gates x his mark, and Elizabeth Austin signed.  There are two entirely separate register records of this marriage, but both have identical information, but one seems to be a (manuscript) copy of the other (the original).

You will recognise the Austin name in Chenies, so it is fairly certain we have the right Daniel Brown.

I also note that she is recorded as Ann, and so for all the christenings of their 9 (10?) children, sometimes Anne, but never Mary Ann (which has appeared on a record on the internet, without supporting evidence, and I am sure is pure guesswork, and very probably incorrect).

Of the children of Daniel and Ann, No 7 was christened, page 20, entry 160, 1825, April 17, Rosetta.  Father recorded as Innkeeper.  I have no other information for her, except that her name, and those of several sisters (also the Ann) were passed down to the children of the first daughter Matilda after she had married Thomas Pope Dickinson in 1830.

But I must stop, before we both get indigestion!

With kind regards,
George Dickinson.

Offline TomMat30

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Re: Daniel Brown Chenies 1784-1861 plus
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 09 December 14 10:22 GMT (UK) »
Good morning Violet May,

I've had a look at the 1861 census.

Kensington Park Terrace, RG9/14, Folio 69, page 5.

Entry 21, No 7 KPT: Boutcher and Rodgers, no apparent link to Daniel Brown.  So presumably moved on sometime before late 1864.

But entry 19, No 6, has Eliza(?) Brown, Head, Unmarried, age 37
and Caroline Brown, sister, Unmarried, age 34
Occupation of both: governess
Place of birth, both: Middlesex, Marylebone

Just a Brown name coincidence I suggest, there being no apparent connection to the Browns of Chenies.

That eliminates another possible clue.

With Kind regards,
George D.