Mr. Bayes - Coach Painter

[Patsy Beech]

Hi Folks,

This is a really long shot, but here goes!!!!

I am searching the Bayes family and I have gone back to a Mr. Bayes, coach painter and his wife Charlotte. They moved from Norfolk, sometime before 1809, because they had a son named Thomas Bayes born Bishopsgate Court, London in that year. As far as I can tell by looking at old maps that place has disappeared under Liverpool Street Station!

This information has come from the 1851 census HO107/1474 page 12, 20 North Street, Chelsea, and that shows Thomas is not only with his wife and children, but also his mother Charlotte, born Norfolk. Now from a death certificate for Charlotte Bayes who died 21st August 1856, aged 68 years at the Workhouse, Chelsea she is given as the widow of Bayes a coach painter. Not even an initial for him!!!!!

My husband seems to think that Norfolk has quite a reputation for being good at coach painting, but where and how far back?

There seems to be quite a few Bayes families around Kings Lynn, but have no idea if that is where this Bayes family came from.

Any information would be a help.

Thank you for taking this time to read this request.
Happy Searching,
Patsy

[lizdb]

My initial reaction to this is - dont make assumptions!

The 1851 census tells us simply that Charlotte Bayes was born in Norfolk. There is no evidence at all at this stage as to where Mr Bayes came from! Nor do we know when Charlotte came from Norfolk to London, whether before or after her marriage.

It is a very interesting census isnt it? Charlotte is recorded as grandmother, but must actually be mother to Thomas (the head of house). And as for Augustus? Is he actually companion to Charlotte? And I notice that Thomas is blind and his mum disabled. And all "strolling musicians". What a lot of info...

Here it is for any one else to see -

Thomas Bayes 42 Strolling musician bn Bishopsgate Court, London.  BLIND
Sarah wife 43 Charwoman bn Bermondsey
Thomas 16 Strolling musician bn Chelsea
John 13
Robert 9
Henry 1
Charlotte 68 grandmother disabled bn Norfolk
Augustus Frederick George companion Musician and Teacher bn Kensington

I'll have a look for them in 1841 to see if it gives any more info at all.

[lizdb]

No more clues in 1841. Looks like Mr Bayes died before then.

HO107 687 4
Charlotte Street, Chelsea

Thomas Bays 30 Labourer N
Sarah 35 N
Charlotte 55 N
Sarah 10 Y
Thomas 6 Y
John 3 Y

(remember adults ages rounded, no relationships given, and Y = born in county, N = not bn in county)

[lizdb]

I think your next step will have to be to try and find a christening for Thomas, around 1809. I am not sure what Parish Bishopsgate Court is in (St Helens?).
If you are near London then a Trip to the LMA will be needed. If not, I believe Dawn (?) kindly does some look ups there for Rootschatters.
If you puta request in the London Look up request Board, titled something like LMA look up requested, and worded that you want a chr for Thomas Bayes around 1809, bn Bishopsgate Court, mother Charlotte, father Mr Bayes. Hopefully someone will pick it up and say if that is possible or not.
If poss link the thread to this one (copy and paste the URL from this one into your message) but dont worry if that sounds too complicated! (I have only just got the hang of it myself)

[ShaunJ]

I have the St Helen's published register extracts - no Bayes or Bays there for the right time period.

Could be St Botolph's   

[Patsy Beech]

Dear RootsChatters,

Thank You for all your help and suggestions, and I totally agree with you about making assumptions - they can lead you right up the garden path!

It is just that coach painting and Norfolk go hand-in-hand somewhere, but I don't know how far back or exactly where! Any ideas?

One extra piece of information is that Thomas Bayes married Sarah Attiemore on 3rd January 1830 in Kensington. This has come from parish registers now available on 'Find My Past'. Would the original records hold any more details than those on the website such as the names of parents or occupations? If so how would I see/find them?

The name Attiemore is also proving difficult with only one other recorded on 'Find My Past' and that is a William Attimore (no 'e' this time) aged 18, burial 12th July 1815, in St John the Baptist, Croydon, Surrey.

Just out of interest the Thomas Bayes who is six years old on the 1841 census grew up to marry twice, Emma Sarah Butterworth & Susan Bush. One of his sons, Robert James Bayes, who was born 27th August 1863, has on his birth certificate his father's occupation as Violin Player so at least we know what instrument Thomas was strolling around playing! You never know by that time he might have been working in one of the theatres or ballrooms around London. Still this is a long way from Mr. Bayes the coach painter and his Norfolk wife Charlotte.

Thank you once again for your help and interest.
Patsy

[cheekyhenry]

Hi, Just started researching my family tree. Got as far as Charlotte and am over the moon to find some info.Has anyone got as far as finding Charlotte's husband name?.My Great grandfather was George Robert Bayes born in Kensington 1869 married to Elizabeth from Cardigan. Been looking for Elizabeths maiden name think it may be James. Their daughter Gertrude my mother remembers as being a very nice person.Please if anybody has more info.Hope I'm on the right track with the family. Regards Lyn

[Patsy Beech]

Hi Lynn,

So glad you have found RootsChat - a great place for help when searching your family tree. When you have more posts you will be able to send me a PM (personal message) I can then send you more information. However to get on with I will add a bit to the above information which is now 4 years old! How time flies!

George Rodney/Robert Bayes was born on 30th April 1868 at 22 Western Terrace, Notting Hill. His parents were Thomas Bayes, violin player & Susan Bush. His half siblings were [Thomas] William Bayes born 15th June 1855 & Sarah Ann Bayes born December quarter 1856 - Chelsea. His siblings were Frederick Bayes born 16th November 1860. Robert James Bayes born 27th August 1863 (also at 22 Western Terrace), Elizabeth Clara born June quarter 1875, and Rosina Alice born March quarter 1878.

Thomas had been married previously to Emma Sarah Butterworth, and when Thomas and Susan had their first son Frederick baptised they also arranged for Emma's children to be baptised at the same time. This took place on 24th February 1861 at St. John the Evangelist, Notting Hill.

In 1871 & 1881 George was living in Bolton Mews, Kensington. By 1891 he is recorded as a lodger at 22 Hurstway Street, Kensington, occupation Horse Keeper. On the 1901 census he is again a lodger, but living in Camden Town. Occupation Ostler, and name recorded as Bay.

He married Elizabeth James at Kensington Register Office in 1908, and the following year they moved to South Wales. Elizabeth's place of birth is recorded on the 1911 census as Pontrhydfendigaid, Cardigan. Their children were:-
Elizabeth Mary 1902,
Alice Gertrude 1905,
Susan [Susie] 1908,
Olwen Sophia 1910,
Thomas 1912,
Frederick Rees 1913,
James [Jim] 1914
William Stanley [Stan] 1916.

There were two other children born before 1911 who had died at the time of the census.

Unfortunately I have made no progress about Charlotte from Norfolk. I cannot find a marriage record for Mr. Bayes & Charlotte but I think from searching records around the Bishopsgate area of London there had been Bayes in that area for at least 100 years before her arrival. Therefore Charlotte could have travelled from Norfolk to London, met and married Mr. Bayes the Coach Painter in London. It would be nice to find some record though.

Moving onto Susan Bush who was born in Epping Essex c1839 she remarried after Thomas Bayes died aged 45, on 25th January 1879. Susan's second marriage was to William Thomas White, farrier, on 14th May 1882 at St. Andrews, Islington. He was 12 years her junior therefore it is surprising to find that by 1901 she is again a widow. At the time of the 1901 census she is living close to her daughter Elizabeth Clara and son-in-law Charles Furse in Wornington Road. Charles Furse had his own business at number 234 Wornington Road, Kensington. Also living with Elizabeth and Charles was their niece Elizabeth aged 1. This is the daughter of Elizabeth's younger sister Rosina [Rose] Alice, but as she is working as a domestic servant at 46 Holmdale Road, Hampstead I guess she could not have her baby living with her.

Well I hope this is of some help and makes a little bit of sense. but I am having difficulty in typing this in as the text box is jumping up & down!!!!! Have not been drinking - honestly! Look forward to you next post.

Best Wishes, Patsy

[cheekyhenry]

Hi, Thanks for all the info all messages passed to my mum who's Charlotte's ggg grandaughter,very much appreciated. Next look up is Elizabeth James? married to George Robert Bayes my mum's grandmother.Are you related to the family?. All the Best and Thanks again. Lyn