Cliffords with Upholsterers background

[vanman]

Hi everyone,

I am looking for my Irish ancestrors birth place. My great, great grand father was Patrick John Clifford (b1807) who married a Mary Unknown (b 1806). I am lead to believe that he could have been from either Kerry (Tralee) or Cork. Large geographical area but is the best I can narrow it down to. He was an upholsterer by trade.
I can find reference to three children Amy (b 1830), John Charles (b1834) and  Mary Ann (b 1835). They all seem to have left for England (London) in the late 1840's as they appear in the London Census of 1851. John Charles was also an Upholsterer and in latter years an antiques dealer in the Euston Road, london. He also joined Sir Henry Iriving at the Lyceum Theatre in London and played several roles in Irving's Shakesperian plays.
I am really stuck with the origins of Patrick John Clifford and Mary Unknown.
Anyone think they have a connection to these cliffords?
Please let me know
Regards
Stuart

[Christopher]

Hello Stuart,

There are three items required when searching for Irish ancestors.

1. Denomination.
2. Parish.
3. Townland.

You'll have to rely on Church records as your ancestors were born before Civil Registration was introduced in Ireland. Non Catholic marriages were registered from 1845 onwards. When registration for BDMS started in 1864 some people didn't bother with the registration for a few years after that date. Keep your fingers crossed that church records still exist.

Cork and Kerry is a large area to search but you could be right about Tralee. I'd hazard a guess and say Patrick and Mary were from a city or town where having an upholstry business would make more sense than having it in a rural area where there wouldn't be so many potential customers and not so many able to afford to have items upholstered.

Christopher

[vanman]

Christopher,

Thanks for the response. Since writing the original request I have found some additional info that may narrow down the search area. The family were Catholic. This I have found from baptism and marriage certs here in England.
Also the family would appear to have left Ireland somewhere between 1836 when Mary Ann Clifford was born and 1840 when a son Daniel was born in England.
Also the daugheter I had noted as Amy was actually named Johanna. She has put her place of Birth as Ireland, Croyle, Kerry in the England 1871 census. I am having difficulty locating Croyle, primarily because I think it was written down incorrectly on the census form. The other sister has put her place of birth as Ireand,Tralee on the 1881 England census. The son John (Charles) Clifford was born on 30th March 1834. This is from a bible insert, however no place is given.
Hope this may jog someones memory
Regards
Stuart

[Christopher]

Hello Stuart,

thecore.com/seanruad offers the following places ending in "oyle" in Co. Kerry ...

Ballymacdoyle, Carrigafoyle, Derreenafoyle, Fermoyle, Inishfoyle and Teeromoyle

Christopher

[vanman]

Christopher,

Thanks for the additional info. I will re-visit the map(s) and see where these places are in relation to where I think Croyle might be !!

Best guess I have at the moment is somewhere between Tralee and Abbeyfeale.

Regards
Stuart

[Christopher]

Hello Stuart,

thecore.com/seanruad IreAtlas

Quoile   

469 acres

County: Down

Barony: Lecale Lower

Civil Parish: Saul

PLU: Downpatrick

Province: Ulster

Clifford - Griffith's Valuation 1863-4 Co. Down

Robert, Shuttle Field Lane, Newtownards, Newtownards 
James, Comber Road, Saintfield, Saintfield
Rev. Cornelius, Upper Chapel Street, Newry, Newry
William John, Ballykeel, Magheralin
Thomas, Banoge, Donaghcloney 
Douglas, Ballymacbredan, Magheralin 
John, Glastry, Ballyhalbert, alias St. Andrew 

The De Clifford estate was in the Quoile area

Christopher

[kingjohn]

Hi All,
Do you think this is John Patrick Clifford?

Marriage of JOHN CLIFFORD of KILLARNEY and MARY LYNCH of KILLARNEY
on 20 February 1827
Parish/Church/Congregation - KILLARNEY
Area - KERRY (RC)
Baptism of JULIA CLUVANE of KILLARNEY
on 15 July 1827
Parish/Church/Congregation - KILLARNEY
Area - KERRY (RC)
Baptism of JOHN CLIFFORD of KILLARNEY
on 27 March 1831
Parish/Church/Congregation - KILLARNEY
Area - KERRY (RC)
Baptism of JAMES CLIFFORD of KILLARNEY
on 18 April 1833
Parish/Church/Congregation - KILLARNEY
Area - KERRY (RC)
Baptism of JOHANNA CLIFFORD of KILLARNEY
on 26 July 1835
Parish/Church/Congregation - KILLARNEY
Area - KERRY (RC)
Baptism of JEREMIAH CLIFFORD of KILLARNEY
on 4 November 1837
Parish/Church/Congregation - KILLARNEY
Area - KERRY (RC)
Baptism of MARY CLIFFORD of KILLARNEY
on 28 May 1840
Parish/Church/Congregation - KILLARNEY
Area - KERRY (RC)

[vanman]

Hi Kingjohn,

Thanks for your message. I had seen reference to this group of people before
however I have conflicting info, especially for John Clifford. I have him born 30th March 1834.
This is from an extract of the family bible.
I also have a death cert for Johanna (Ann) Clifford on 8 January 1890 age 62, which would
put her date of birth as 1828.
As for the other children I do not recognise the names apart from Mary and again I think my records would indicate she was born about 1835 in Tralee.

Any other info would be extremely helpful

Best Regards

[kingjohn]

Hi,
As per your last post, might be date in the family Bible be wrong? As for the Civil Registration records re age of person ie Joanna Clifford; this can never really be a varified. Finally, I believe that Mary Clifford was born in Tralee and baptized in Killarney (could this be right). As for the other children they died in child birth (high mortality of the day).
John