Author Topic: Names  (Read 1692 times)

Offline Quarryman

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Names
« on: Tuesday 27 May 14 11:12 BST (UK) »
Can someone with lots of arcane knowledge of Welsh family names help me. My paternal ancestors (except my grandfather who was named John Henry) all seem to have been named Henry/Harry/Hari.  Is this possible, or have I gone off course somewhere. All the dates and locations slot together.  The eldest son of my great grandfather was named Robert Roberts Roberts on his birth certificate, which is even more puzzling, although I have found another Robert Roberts (Williams) elsewhere.
Roberts, Caernarfon. Thomas, Caernarfon. Kite, Kent.

Offline nestagj

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Re: Names
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 27 May 14 12:00 BST (UK) »
Welcome to the mystery of welsh names ! someone with more knowledge will come by soon; but as a quick comment you will find that the welsh naming system is not very imaginative; Yes all the Henry / hari / harry is possible as is Robert Roberts.    Robert's father may have been Robert Williams but as he was Robert's son he was called Roberts - this a version of the patronymic naming in Wales
and that's about all I can explain...........
Nesta

Offline Quarryman

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Re: Names
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 27 May 14 18:21 BST (UK) »
Thanks nestagj. That reassures me.

Regards

Quarryman
Roberts, Caernarfon. Thomas, Caernarfon. Kite, Kent.

Offline Dolgellau

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Re: Names
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 28 May 14 01:09 BST (UK) »
Recently republished in an updated version, I would highly recommend buying (if you can afford it) or borrowing from your local library (if you can't afford it) The Surnames Of Wales by John Rowlands and Sheila Rowlands: Gwasg Gomer 2014 ISBN: 9781848517752.

It is available for £19.99 from the Welsh Books Council site Gwales.Com:

http://www.gwales.com/bibliographic/?isbn=9781848517752&tsid=2

Essential reading for all Family Historians with a Welsh family interest.


Offline Dolgellau

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Re: Names
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 28 May 14 02:17 BST (UK) »
The eldest son of my great grandfather was named Robert Roberts Roberts on his birth certificate, which is even more puzzling, although I have found another Robert Roberts (Williams) elsewhere.

Most of us born in Wales or England before the mid 1970' s don't have a family name / surname on our birth certificates. My birth certificate says that I am a boy named Alwyn and that my father is Hugh Humphreys; Humphreys as my surname is just assumed from my father's surname. When I asked a solicitor about changing my name to Alwyn ap Huw by deed poll in the 1980's he told me that it was unnecessary because "ap Huw" can equally be assumed from my birth certificate.

Fixed family names in Wales were first used in the 1500's after the acts of union, but didn't become a fixture throughout Wales in all classes of society until the about the 1890's (and by then members of the new cultural nationalist movement who had fixed surnames began reverting back to the more traditional patronymic form -Ifan ab Owen Edwards, for example).

In the cases of both your Robert Roberts Roberts and Robert Roberts Williams, what you have is the parents using the given name section of the birth certificate to state what they want the child's surname to be; Robert Williams want's his son to be known as Robert Roberts (Robart ap Robart) NOT Robert Williams. Robert Roberts Roberts is telling the registrar that his son is not just Roberts because he is the son of Robert, but also because he is the grandson of Robert (Robart ap Robart ap Robart).

Sorry if this sounds confusing, Welsh naming is a bit like tying shoe laces; something you can do without thinking if you know how, but is almost impossible to describe how to do to another person; which is why I recommended John and Sheila Rowlands book in my last post.


Offline Quarryman

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Re: Names
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 28 May 14 10:09 BST (UK) »
Hi Dolgellau,

Guess I will have to buy the Rowlands book. I have always subscribed to the Robert ap Robert theory - but is no Robert anywhere in the male line, they are all Henry/Harry/Hari. which prompted my original query. To make matters worse, a great aunt married a Humphrey Pritchard although the rest of the family were all Humphreys, the father being Humphrey Humphreys!

Regards

Quarryman
Roberts, Caernarfon. Thomas, Caernarfon. Kite, Kent.

Offline paintedlady

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Re: Names
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 29 May 14 00:51 BST (UK) »
I must say that the explanation that most of welsh surnames do not appear on birth certificates until the mid 1970's strange as all of the birth certificates i have for members of my Jones families born 1850+ all have the surname of Jones on them, did it depend on which district they were born in?  A lot of them were born in Eglwysrhos/Llanrhos, Old Colwyn or Colwyn Bay which is where they remained until their deaths......

Offline Dolgellau

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Re: Names
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 29 May 14 02:29 BST (UK) »
I must say that the explanation that most of welsh surnames do not appear on birth certificates until the mid 1970's strange as all of the birth certificates i have for members of my Jones families born 1850+ all have the surname of Jones on them, did it depend on which district they were born in?  A lot of them were born in Eglwysrhos/Llanrhos, Old Colwyn or Colwyn Bay which is where they remained until their deaths......

Columns 2, 3 and 4 of a birth certificate issued in England and Wales before the mid 1970's contain the following information:

2 Name if any [David]
3 Sex [Boy]
4 Name and Surname of Father [Edward Williams]

Generally the child's surname is assumed to be Williams from the father's surname; but in parts of Wales during the 19th century his surname might be Edwards from his father's given name.

A column asking for the child's surname to be specified only appears on the latter larger format certificates, which I believe were first issued in about 1977.