Smith Girls from West Auckland

[DeniseBS]

I am looking for three of my great grandmother's sisters, Alice (1866), Agnes (1868) and Mary (1873). They are the daughters of William John SMITH and his wife Bridget (sometimes listed as Bridget Josephine) nee BUTLER. They were all born in Little Muddy Creek in West Auckland.

I have gone through all the deaths and marriages in New Zealand and can't find any that seem to fit. Another sister Martha (1880), I did find marrying for the first time at age 69.

They may not have stayed in Auckland, as Martha and my great grandmother ended up in Taranaki, while Mary is believed to have lived in Christchurch for sometime before returning to Auckland in the late 1920s. It is possible she married someone with a surname similar to SMITH, but I have been unable to find even a single possibility.

If anyone has any strays in their family trees matching these names I would love to hear from you.

These girls are driving me nuts.

Denise

 

[Janette]

Hi Denise,it looks like Alice had the middle name Jane

1884/5498 Smith  Edward / Bridget Josephine/ William John
1880/18248 Smith  Martha / Bridget Josephine /William John
1877/15734 Smith  Sarah Catherine/  Bridget Josephine/ William John
1873/14062 Smith Mary / Bridget /William John
1870/14982 Smith  George / Bridget/ William John
1868/13924 Smith  Agnes / Bridget/ William John
1865/28572 Smith  Alice Jane / Bridget/ William John
1864/20966 Smith  Elizabeth / Bridget/ William John


Cheers Janette

[DeniseBS]

Hi Janette

Yes, I was surprised when that came up on NZBDMS, as her baptism is only as Alice. She had an Aunt called Jane Elizabeth, but the funny thing is her younger sister by 9 years was baptised as Jane, but her birth along with Martha's was never registered. Jane is my gt grandmother.

Denise

[DeniseBS]

Sorry I should have said that Minnie (1881) was not registered. Minnie and Sarah Catherine died as children and Elizabeth died in childbirth in 1898 in Cambridge.

George never married and remained in Auckland. Edward did marry and ended up in the Waikato and is buried in Ngarauwahia

Cheers

Denise

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hello...

I can't offer anything new sorry but I'm wondering if you have the 1885 death certificate for Bridget SMITH or the 1911 death certifcate for William John SMITH. The certificates should mention the number of living children and may help in working out if the three sisters were still alive in, respectively, 1885 and 1911.

I say 1885 and 1911 purely because of the following tree on Mundia...

William John SMITH 1831-1911
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/26701401/1902271154

...so if the tree is the wrong William John SMITH then just ignore me :-)

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For what it's worth, there is possibly a probate file for the above William John SMITH held at Auckland Archives. Maybe it contains a will. Well worth starting an Auckland Archives look-up request thread.

SMITH William John - Titirangi - Gardener - 1911
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21454781

And this may be the probate file for his second wife Alice, also at Auckland Archives...

SMITH Alice - New Lynn - Widow - 1936
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=9389572

And at Wellington Archives is the probate file of his son Edward who you said is buried in Ngaruwahia
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23127224

The files may contain a clue. Maybe not.

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I have gone through all the deaths and marriages in New Zealand and can't find any that seem to fit.

One thing I can give you is a list of deaths from the BDM NZ website but listed by first name, not surname. So if you feel like looking through ***lots*** of Mary, Agnes and Alice deaths then click on "Download" (not "Add to my Dropbox") at the following link...

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x5z/

It's a small zip file containing four text files. If you have any problems unzipping it let me know.

You can use the BDM NZ Marriages website to eliminate a lot of the names and then spend some time checking out the remainder. Will be helpful if you can share the load as there are a lot of names.

I've included deaths plus or minus five years of the birth years you gave (which doesn't make sense but will if you download the zip file)

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Do you know if the two Mary SMITHs buried in adjacent plots at Waikumete are part of the family. They're most likely mother and daughter but one of them was born in 1873-ish.

Having said that, Mary and SMITH are quite common names so it's most likely a coincidence but I couldn't find them in PapersPast to rule them out.

SMITH, Mary, 24 years, d.15 Sep 1896, bur.17 Sep 1896, Roman Catholic Division B Row 3 Plot 13
SMITH, Mary, 85 years, d.26 Aug 1888, bur.28 Aug 1888, Roman Catholic Division B Row 3 Plot 14

Regards
Beg

[DeniseBS]

Hi Beg

Thank you for detailed reply to my post. Yes I have the details of William John's and Bridget's death certificates. Got them back in the day when the RGO was at Lower Hutt and they bought the registers out for you to get the information.

Although I have the number of girls and boys by age on William John's death certificate in 1911 (including the six children by his second wife) the number of girls for the first marriage is wrong and the ages are completely wrong. I take it George the eldest son was just guessing the ages of his sisters. It also includes Elizabeth, but she had died 13 years earlier.

The story goes that the girls did not get on with their stepmother and as each one became old enough they left home. By old enough it could only be thirteen or fourteen if they went into service, which is what I am assuming. Their father refused to talk about them or have contact with them after that. Mary was the only one that seems to have got in touch when she returned to Auckland in the late 1920s.

I have plenty of information about the remainder of the family, it is just these three girls that are the problem due to the estrangement. I have probates/wills, death notices, certificates for some, you name it.

I have a database in which I have entered all the births, deaths, burials,  marriages and intention to marry details that I have collected over the years for all four girls (I only found Martha a couple of years ago). I have been using a process of elimination. I am not just starting out, I have been at this for a lvery ong time hence the desparate post.

Edward's daughter is still alive in her mid ninties and has supplied quite a bit of information. She said her father basically did not know the names of his full sisters, apart from Mary, which made him very sad. She is the one that told me Mary had lived in Christchurch and had returned to Auckland living in the Kelston area. She thought she lived in Nikau Street. She said that when Mary died she was about 15, so that would make Mary's death around 1930. She was also the one that thought that Mary's married name was Smith or something similar.

Thanks again for your efforts and the time you have taken  looking at my problem it is very appreciated.

Denise

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hello Denise...

Certainly sounds like you've made the effort.

Here's a modified text file containing the Marys who were born in 1873 plus or minus five years and who died between 1926 and 1935. There's "only" three hundred names :-)

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x62/

All you need to do is find each one in the 1925 or 1928 electoral roll and hope one of them lives in Nikau Street :-)

I'd start with the 1873 births and work my way out.

EDIT:

Forgot to ask :-)

...for the record would you mind letting us know the children's details from both William and Bridget's death certificates. They're most likely wrong as you say but would still be handy to know.

Thanks again.

Regards
Beg

[Beg Clonrode...]

She is the one that told me Mary [...] had returned to Auckland living in the Kelston area. She thought she lived in Nikau Street.

She said that Mary's death [was] around 1930.

She was also the one that thought that Mary's married name was Smith or something similar.

Hi again...

Still no progress but here are some thoughts...

If by similar to SMITH you mean a common surname (common as in ubiquitous, not as in muck :-) then Stones Directory in 1925 and 1926 has a Mary WILSON living in Nikau Street, Auckland.

Stones Directory - 1925
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x7a/

I think it's a red herring but WILSON is a fairly common surname so I thought I'd mention it.

The 1925/26 Mary WILSON listed in Stones is not in the 1927 edition. Not sure where she got to.

There's a Mary WILSON died in 1927 age 53 years but she was a spinster living in Wellington.

As I said, I'm reasonably sure this is a red herring but I thought I'd put it out there.

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From 1927 onwards there is a second Nikau Street and this one is in New Lynn which googlemaps says is right next door to Kelston. So I'd guess that this is the Nikau Street to which Edward's daughter was referring.

Here's Stones 1930 which mentions the Nikau Street in New Lynn. The names listed are the same as for the previous few years.

Stones Directory - 1930
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x7b/

Maybe cross reference the names to BDM NZ marriages to see if one of them married a Mary SMITH.

Or see if they're mentioned in the 1928 electoral roll. I don't know which electorate New Lynn was in back in 1928 but here's McRobie to help. I can't make sense of it. Maybe someone with local knowledge might.

McRobie - 1928 Auckland electorates
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x7c/

I've already cross-referenced the Nikau Street surnames to the list of deaths I gave earlier with no joy so I'm thinking it's another red herring. But it might lead somewhere. Or might not :-)

Regards
Beg

[DeniseBS]

Hi Beg

I had meant to reply saying that I had gone through the 1928 ER for Marys living in Nikau St (yes you are correct it is the Kelston/New Lynn one). I have been through the ER Districts Eden and Auckland Suburbs, as I wasn't sure which one it would come under. It was Auckland Suburbs, but there were no Marys in Nikau Street. Closest were a Mary Martin in Rimu Street and a Mary Taylor in Kowhai Street. The other Nikau Street is or was in Mt Eden I think.

When my elderly cousin  said similar to Smith she meant, sounds like. She originally said it was Smith, but when I told her there were no Mary Smiths marrying a Smith, she decided it was something that sounded very similar.

One of the things I had also already done was go through all the Marys who were buried in Auckland Cemeteries from 1925 to 1935 ( my cousin was married by then and not living in Auckland so it had to be before that). I gradually eliminated all of them.

However, two things, I was looking at Marys who were buried at the correct age only (i.e. born 1873 or 1874) and secondly your list had a Mary Cobb who died in 1932 aged 59. But Waikumete has her as 56, so I would not have looked at her as a possible. I am going to check her out further. Also using your list to expand my search to Mary's who age is out by a few years. I was thinking about whether it was worth it and I remember my cousin thought she had no children and as she went to the house sale after her death Mary must have been a widow. So who would have given the information? If it was before 1929, her brother George may have, but as I said he probably was the one that got them all wrong on the father's death certificate. So I think it is definitely worth the effort.

I will also follow through on the Mary Wilson. Can't hurt. Someone said if you use a process of elimnation whatever is left not matter how unlikely is bound to be the truth. I am just replacing truth with person.

Although as I say I have done alot to find all three of these girls, it is good to get someone looking at it with a fresh perspective. You know the old saying about wood and trees.

Thanks again for your time and effort.

Cheers

Denise