RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: skibbgirl on Saturday 24 March 12 23:20 GMT (UK)
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I just noticed this. The cost of a record is now "AS LOW AS" 2.5 Euro instead of 5 Euro, depending on how much credit you purchase.
However, if I'm reading this correctly it will now cost you to search. You are allowed 10 free searches to learn how to use the search facility.
See: Roots Ireland (http://ifhf.rootsireland.ie/search.php)
"From 22nd March 2012: The rootsireland.ie Online Research System is now using a credit system. All user balances have been upgraded to the new credit system automatically. There has been a reduction in the cost of a single record from €5.00 to as low as €2.50, depending on the amount of credits purchased. However, all users will be charged 1 credit for a page of 10 index search results at 00.10 cent (EURO) per page. Every user will be given 10 free searches to familiarize themselves with the system."
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As far as I can see this is the way the costs for search pages and records work out - the more credits you purchase in one transaction - the less they cost...
approximate cost per search page / and per record
€ 5.00 = 35 Credits 14c / €3.57
€10.00 = 73 Credits 13.5c / €3.42
€18.00 = 150 Credits 12c / €3
€32.00 = 320 Credits 10c / €2.50
€60.00 = 750 Credits 8c / €2
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5€ for 35 credits.... but:
To view the results of any single search up to a maximum of 10 results per page will cost 1 credit.
Any single record will cost 25 Credits .
::)
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The cost for actual records is much the same
The major change is for searching; obviously to gain revenue from those of us who searched with names and parishes until we found a match but DIDN'T purchase the record.
I did this quite often - the site stated that if they felt you were abusing the search facility without purchasing records; they would contact you and in some cases cease your log in.
I wanted to buy the actual civil certificate in many cases as genuine proof; their transcripts are, as are many, not 100% accurate.
They are now charging a nominal fee for basic or extensive searching .
My major gripe with the website over the time has been as I've been using it is; I have found two or three people that appeared at first to be different people, only to purchase the records and see that they were the same; also after the last change initially, when you found several records with a search and they turned out to be ones you previously purchased but without the warning; to be fair here after discussion they gave a refund.
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The major change is for searching
As far as I can see if you have a rare name fine, not too many searches to see if it is worth buying the fuller info.
..but if you are looking for a common name you need a heck of a lot of searches to narrow it down, and even then you are not sure.
They are, in a cack handed way, trying to model this on ScotlandsPeople, where you pay for searches.
However ScotlandsPeople lets you do basic searches before you have to pay for slightly more advanced searches. With rootsireland.ie you appear to have to pay for any searches
Nul points to rootsireland.ie - I would guess their business will plummet overnight, once people have used their 10 free searches. It is just not worth buying such a pig in the poke.
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If they ever send an email saying the parish I'm waiting for is now online I'll use them, otherwise I for one am finished with them, I won't be indulging in hopfull searches for myself or anyone else.
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I also discovered the changes to the terms of use at the week-end. I was very annoyed as their charges are dear enough as it is. I told them that I would use up my remaining credits and never use them again. This is the reply I got:
"The changes in our site today, including to a credit system, have taken place after a lot of time and investment. Feedback from customers over the past 4 and a half years showed that users would pay a small fee for access to our very valuable and unique index and would like a cheaper price per record. We have therefore taken on board the model of Scotland's People which was cited by many as an ideal search and payments system.
Any single search of the index will now cost 1 credit to view a page of 10 search results. (One credit = 00.10 cent).
Any single record will cost 25 Credits . By bulk buying credits you can avail of significant savings. Please see the bulk purchase options listed below.
Amount to purchase:
€5.00 - (35 Credits)
€10.00 - (73 Credits) - Bulk Saving
€18.00 - (150 Credits) - Bulk Saving
€32.00 - (320 Credits) - Bulk Saving
€60.00 - (750 Credits) - Bulk Saving "
Certainly not enough to tempt me as the free search facility would often involve checking and cross checking many pages, especially with common names.
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I'm afraid it is much worse than it appears. If you are doing just one or two searches on spec, or looking to trace families to a specific named couple, the cost of records will now actually be significantly more than the apparent savings on offer.
In the past RootsIreland had a discount scheme if you had several children born to a couple - the more records the cheaper the cost. For example, eleven to fifteen records would costs just 30 Euros. If I look and find 15 kids now, it will actually cost 42 Euros to view the records in the new set up, as I will need 377 credits - 2 credits for the index returns listing the kids (over 2 pages, 10 entries on the 1st, 5 on the second), and then 15 x 25 credits to see the actual records - so 375 credits +2 credits for the searches = 377 credits. The cheapest way I can see to do this is to buy €42 worth of credits - €10 for 73 credits and €32 for 320 credits, giving me a total of 393 credits (so 16 left over). The maths is horrendous and I have written down other examples on a blog post at http://britishgenes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/rootsireland-makes-search-and-payment.html
RootsIreland has also disabled the ability to do a parent search at the parish level - it can now only be done at county level. You don't see them advertising that anywhere! This is to me the bigger disaster with the new site - they have regressed the search functions, meaning you may end up paying for more false positives when consulting records.
The basis of the new model appears to be gambling - a gamble that you may need lots of credits as you might find lost of records - so pay more, get more credits, get a discount. Except that falls completely flat on its face when you end up just finding a single record and then have hundreds of credits to spare!!
It's all a bit of a disgrace really, and Ireland now seriously needs to open up to the idea of competition. I personally hate the idea of being held hostage to my own heritage by a single guardian that feels that it can charge us what it feels like and expect me to just take it.
I would urge all those who are dismayed by the new set up to email them at enquiries[at]rootsireland.ie .
Chris
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace [at] with @
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We have therefore taken on board the model of Scotland's People which was cited by many as an ideal search and payments system.
That is the nub of it - these people appear to be so stupid that they have not checked out ScotlandsPeople
ScotlandsPeople is relatively cheap and efficient, as you can narrow down your options with completely free searches, before starting to pay. On this lots model, you cannot narrow your options before you pay, it is having to buy the proverbial pig in the poke
It's all a bit of a disgrace really, and Ireland now seriously needs to open up to the idea of competition. I personally hate the idea of being held hostage to my own heritage by a single guardian that feels that it can charge us what it feels like and expect me to just take it.
Yes that is what they are doing. I cannot see that emailing them and getting a sanctimonious template email back will help anyone. >:(
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If you don't shout, you won't be heard! :)
The more this change generates bad publicity for them, and the more pressure it might put them under from users, the more it might force a rethink. But being heard is crucial - some comments already online at http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/how-to-kill-off-goodwill-in-one-easy.html and http://britishgenes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/adding-to-rootsireland-chorus.html Plenty of others around I am sure!
Chris
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I fully agree with the previous posts. I certainly won't be doing any more searches on the site either. I think its a disgrace that we can be held to ransom by these people. They're OUR ancestors after all! A masterclass in how to lose friends and alienate people. frostyknight
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I've nothing to do with them, don't use them but nobody is holding anyone to ransom...they have records, they are selling them if one wants to buy them! They want to be paid for all the work they have put in!
Irish Census records are free but I'm being held to ransom if I want Scottish ones for MY ancestors.....
Up to this people could put records together using the "clues" but anyone who has could be putting 1 + 1 together to make 3....
Regardless of recent changes the problem was that people were buying records in the hope that they were for the person being researched..it is the lottery aspect that is the problem!! The bottom line will be their annual accounts which will probably show a decline in income, which might change their minds.
You can also just search the registers yourself which will cost you as the clergy are required to supervise your search and there is a fee for this activity.
Fees for searches in Registers of Baptisms, Marriages and Burials
The following scale of fees was approved by the General Synod in 2002:-
Searches up to one hour €20 / Stg£12
For each additional hour or part of an hour €20 / Stg£12
Each additional certified copy €10 / Stg£6 from http://ireland.anglican.org/information/64 so these are your ancestor's records, are they also holding people to ransom???
How much will it cost you to go to the church to look at their registers, plus the above fees?
If you employ someone to go for you then they have to be paid too...on top of fees! Root's fees aren't bad IF you knew you were getting the correct ones!!
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Regardless of recent changes the problem was that people were buying records in the hope that they were for the person being researched..it is the lottery aspect that is the problem!!
That, plus the fact that they have restricted the search criteria to that offered just a week ago - you can no longer target a search for a couple's children to a known parish and religious denomination, only by county now. They have therefore reduced the ability to effectively search on the site, which will force more false positives, which were (more) easily avoided before. That may generate more money for them, but I suspect a lot of people will be throwing their porridge at their computers the more it happens!
You can also just search the registers yourself which will cost you;
Fees for searches in Registers of Baptisms, Marriages and Burials
The following scale of fees was approved by the General Synod in 2002:-
Searches up to one hour €20 / Stg£12
For each additional hour or part of an hour €20 / Stg£12
Each additional certified copy €10 / Stg£6 from http://ireland.anglican.org/information/64 so these are your ancestor's records, are they also holding people to ransom???
Absolutely!!!! It is working out cheaper for me to go to PRONI by ferry on a day trip and look up the records myself on microfilm (albeit not all are there). I live in Ayrshire, so ferry just down road, and once taken it now virtually arrives at the doorstep in the docks at Belfast - so I am absolutely looking into a visit. PRONI's microfilmed church holdings are listed at http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf whilst NLI's RC listings on microfilm are listed at http://www.nli.ie/en/parish-register.aspx
If you employ someone to go for you then they have to be paid too...on top of fees!
Indeed - hence why I will go myself! :)
Their fees aren't bad IF you knew you were getting the correct ones!!
And there's the issue. When records for Antrim first went online, as supplied by the Ulster Historical Foundation, I noticed that the date given for birth/baptism on the civil records returned on the site were actually baptism dates. I knew this because the UHF's own site had also made the records available and they returned both birth and baptism dates in an entry (obviously compiled from 2 sources). Having matched up a couple of records on the RootsIreland site to that I had previously obtained from the UHF, I knew there was an issue, and so alerted RootsIreland, who informed me that they had mistaken uploaded the baptism dates to their site instead of the actual birth dates - it was quickly changed. So I would rather see an original record than a transcript, as you can never know what you are seeing.
GRONI has apparently now digitised all its BMD recs, with a view to doing a 'ScotlandsPeople' in the near future, and the GRO in the south certainly makes them available at 6 Euros each as photocopied extracts, including pre-1922 for the north. 5 Euros for a transcript or 6 Euros for a photocopy is a no brainer - the copy any day! NB: For those in Scotland, civil birth indexes for Northern Ireland from 1922-1995 are available in the ScotlandsPeople Centre (but not marriages or deaths).
With church records the National Library of Ireland is planning at some stage to digitise all of its Roman Catholic records and place them online for free - this appears to have taken a step back recently, but I believe is still an aspiration. So as in the past, when Roots Ireland charged 10 Euros a time, the simple option at this end is to bide my time again, because I suspect other options will present themselves.
Again, to reiterate - my bigger concern here is the regressive step applied to the search criteria, and the misconception that the site is now cheaper - only if bulk buying, and as I've illustrated, for casual users the costs may significantly increase. So potentially more expensive in certain cases and much harder to use for certain basic tasks - doesn't that warrant a protest?
Chris
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Yes it might warrant a protest but it will fall on deaf ears.
The accountant might get through to them.....I know I could have spent a fortune on a particular Surname in a particular county, trying to find the right one. It is only a "lucky dip" one is buying into!
It's no wonder they're offering 750 credits for €60.00..one would need that just to try and find someone as there is Zero service!!
The wording of their "special offers" speaks volumes about what is going on behind the scenes......Yes, there is less there but there will be less customers!!
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Don't quite agree on deaf ears bit - reluctant, obstinate ears perhaps! :) If so, just might be a case of shouting louder and more often!
On your last line - I could not agree more! :)
Chris
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I will no longer use this facility. Having registered my protest with them and pointed out how much more costly it will be just to do searches I recieved a
reply which simply stated that the cost of obtaining the record would be greatly reduced. this ignores the fact that by then one would have spent a fortune
on the searches in order to hopefully obtain the correct one. It is already difficult enough to do family research in Ireland and this is just another 'nail in the
coffin'. I had no objection to paying the 5 euro for info, having done the research and found what I hoped would be the correct info.
Brennan1
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Just today I got an email from Rootsireland telling me of their wonderful revised terms and conditions. They did mention of course their much more expensive costs and how I could save money by bulk purchases???!!!. No mention of the fact that this makes no sense as it will now cost to search for a person where it used to be free. This email arrived even though I already told them I won't be using their service anymore because of these changes. Maybe they are feeling the pinch, perhaps if we all continue to boycott the site, they may see the error of their ways and go back to the old ways.
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I have also had the same email today, despite as I said in my previous post that I had contacted them to say that I would no longer be using their facility
because of the changes to their terms.
I know that these emails are sent as mass emails but it shows that any protest about these changes are falling on deaf ears. Although I recognise that this
site provides a valuable resource (particularly for people who are unable to visit Ireland to do their own research) the cost of obtaining the information with
these changes will be prohibitive for many people.
regards
Brennan 1
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I emailed RootsIreland with my dismay of the changes, and they replied after 8 days to say that "The new credit/searching system is in its first phase of development and testing". I blogged about it at http://britishgenes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/rootsireland-changes-more-to-come.html - note in the comments to the post that someone else also emailed them, and in response was told the same thing about it being a "first phase" and was then also asked "Do you wish us to close your account at this time?"!
Chris
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I also received the email about their 'changes'. To say I was confused is an understatement. I couldn't even be bothered re-reading it. Although it was dressed up to appear as though the changes would be of some benefit to joe public, it's plainly not. Never found anything of use on the site anyway, and now I don't suppose I ever will.
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Just sent them a e mail complaining about the changes, maybe if they get enough of them they will have another look at this silly new system.
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Yes I also received the email claiming a great saving was to be had...
Then like everyone else I looked into it and realised that with some of my current hard searches it will cost me a fortune.
Not happy and will definitely think twice about returning.
So 10 free credits for new and existing users to get used to the new system....mmm three words come to mind...disposable email address.
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Unless they link the login to a credit card number similar to other paid sites!
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Why don't IrishRoots offer a 'Subscription' option as well as the much unloved current Pay-per-View (but based on the recently discarded 'free search' model instead). I have suggested this in the past but always seems to have fallen on deaf ears.
I would much rather use a subscription option rather than the 'open ended' PPV - in my case too easy to get sucked in and spend far more than intended - or is that the cunning plan? :-\
H
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I didn't mind the pay per view at all, I know a lot of people were complaining that they had to buy too many records to get one positive result, I can understand how annoying and expensive that would be, but I enjoyed doing lots of searches and making that make or break decision to buy or not. I was lucky by doing LOADS of searches I managed always except once to buy a revelant record. Of course I also spent hours searching and found nothing even worth considering.
I'm not keen on subscription sites, I'm always worried I'll pay up the money only to find the site has nothing to offer but even subscription would be better that this new system.
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I Think That this page sums it up very nicely
http://britishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/rootsireland-makes-search-and-payment.html
If you can't be bothered reading it, it basically says that you are being ripped off for a now inferior product.
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I have just logged back on the site to have a look
If you search by county you can still search quite extensively without charges
On the home page click on the map
Then choose the county you are searching in
Search with name and year and when the results appear click on marriage or baptism etc as you require
Then use the advanced features to search again including parishes
You can exclude quite an amount of fluff by doing this before viewing a page
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Thanks myluck!
Yes it looks like there is some more flexibility..
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The response to complaints seems to have changed a bit, I got the following today.
"The credit system is in its first phase of development. We take your opinions on board."
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Well I decided to take the plunge.
I already had 1911 census details and knew bride's maiden name so found her in 1901 but thought I would still do it for my husband - his grandparents.
We now have marriage details telling us less than we already knew - fathers' first names are 'unknown' - just the surnames recorded.
We have the witnesses and date and it is nice to have that record rather than deductions though. :D
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I just bought some credits - the cheapest ;D because I thought I would see an IMAGE of the record, but oh no! They are charging for you to see the type of record you can get from Family Search and many other sites for FREE, basically its a transcription.
Pretty naffed off to be honest >:(
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in fairness the website does state on the homepage that the records they have are transcriptions, and not images.
Shane
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in fairness the website does state on the homepage that the records they have are transcriptions, and not images.
Shane
Well I didn't read the home page ;D I just jumped in and started to search, my own fault then. I still think its pretty rubbish though. I'll use up my credits and that will be it!
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Particularly as its free at Irishgenealogy AND you get free access to parish images if available
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a8f2171323738
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The parishes Irish Genealogy have are not included on RootsIreland - at least none that I can see...
The detail seems to catch out many people is that RootsIreland does not contain records for all counties, or even for all parishes in the counties they do cover - so I'd recommend a good check through the list of sources listed (even though it's not kept properly up-to-date) to see if the county, parish and dates you are interested in are available, before spending any money.
The counties, or part-counties, they dont cover include Kerry, Carlow, Clare, Dublin city, Cork city & West County Cork etc... they also dont include certain parishes in Co. Tipperary, only RC records in Louth and Waterford etc...
Shane
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Glad to see I'm not alone in avoiding/boycotting rootsireland/IFHF....A few years ago I joined on the strength of their advert, which then proclaimed(with bad English) that you could search umpteen millions of records "for free"....which was not true, because if you didn't make a purchase within a few hundred they would cut you off.
They have copies of many (not all, by any means) records which CAN be found elsewhere ~ and nobody minds paying reasonable fees.
Claiming their 'system' is "not-for-profit" does not alter the fact that it's another classic bit of rip-off Ireland.
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looks a bit complicated, but might help reduce costs for a search... although it seems you need to have credits but they dont get used up by searches?
RootsIreland 'free' searches for July (http://goo.gl/u1kxW)
Thanks to Claire Santry's Irish Genealogy News (http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.ie/)
Shane
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This excellent article may help explain the transcript/image issues:
http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/irishroots/2012/07/02/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#.T_LQUlxn5Z8.twitter
and indeed, may spur some folks on to asking the question of the bodies involved. Maybe if enough asked the same question, the bodies themselves might finally realise an answer is needed....and soon!