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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Offers => Topic started by: davecigar on Wednesday 20 August 08 17:20 BST (UK)
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Celia has withdrawn her offer, so as a retired Liverpool (Mersey) Pilot I have a copy of John (PJH) Tebay's "List of Pilots - 1734 to 1990" in my possession. If anyone requires a 'look-up' I will be happy to oblige.
Davecigar
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Hi
I am looking for a James Derbyshire Master Mariner who I assume worked out of Liverpool. I guess that he was born around 1775 and died before 1867. Not much to go on I know. Married 1790 ish in Lancaster and one of his children baptised in Liverpool 1806 James is listed as master mariner on this parish record.
many thanks
Polestar
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Hi
Sorry, he's not on the list.
Master Mariners were usually in charge of vessels trading worldwide. On approaching a Port they would employ the services of a Pilot to guide them safely in.
Suggest you 'post' the question on the section dealing with Master Mariners.
Regards
Dave
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Hi Davecigar - intersted in your book. Do you have any rcord of Isaac Walton "Master Mariner" - reportedly captain of the steam tug boat Brilliant Star, in the 1800;s, I think.
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Me again - I believe he had somthing to do with bringing The Great Eastern over from Dublin.
:P
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Hi Kerry
No record, sorry.
If he was Captain of a tugboat he wouldn't be on the list of Pilots.
If he was Captain of the Great Eastern from Dublin to Liverpool he would have been obliged to employ the services of a Pilot to guide him safely into Liverpool.
As an aside, The 'Great Eastern' Public House in New Ferry, Cheshire has recently 'closed its doors' and is subject to a planning application for flats (apartments). The ship spent 3 weeks in New Ferry in the 1860's.
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Thanks anyway.
Polestar
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Many Thanks - I will continue digging.
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My Great Great Grandfather - Capt John Williams was a Master Mariner and River Pilot. He was married in St Peters, Liverpool in 1811 so I assume he was a Liverpool Pilot sometime during the early part of the 1800's. Is there any mention of him in your book?
Regards,
John.
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Does anyone have a copy of John (PJH) Tebay's "List of Pilots - 1734 to 1990" or know how I can get access to copy. My Great Great Grandfather - Capt John Williams was thought to be a Master Mariner and River Pilot. He was born around 1791 and married in Liverpool in 1811 so I assume he was a Liverpool Pilot sometime during the early part of the 1800's. I would like to find out if there is any mention of him in the book which may open a few more doors and assist in further research.
Regards,
John.
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Hi
Patience would have helped!
There are supposedly ten entries for John Williams but only eight listed in the book. The reason I say this is because all entries with the same surname and christian name have a roman numeral next to the name, in this case (III) to (X). On the previous page the last entry is for David Williams, but no mention of JW (I) and (II).
The 1st entry for JW (III) shows him licenced in 1832 and as they are in date order, all the other JW's are at a later date.
As the Liverpool Pilot Service is unlike any other in the UK, they operate an apprenticeship system, your JW would have had to join the Service in 1806/7 and probably be licenced about 1811/12, which is feasible, but he could not have been a Master Mariner as well as a Liverpool Pilot.
I have looked in the 'History of the Liverpool Pilot Service' by John S Rees and there is an entry for a JW as one of the first licenced Pilots in the Port of Liverpool in 1766, but this is too early for your JW. Unfortunately there were no further lists of Pilots between then and 1832.
The only record available for further research is the 'Pilot Character Book' to be found at the Liverpool Maritime Museum, Albert Dock, Liverpool, where there is a page for each Pilot since 1766.
And there was you thinking it was just a simple 'look up'! Mind you with a name like Williams, nothing is simple.
Hope this is of some help
Dave
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Thanks very much for the information on John Williams and sorry for appearing a bit impatient. I am new to this form of messaging and wasn't sure if I was making my request to the right person.
At the time of his marriage in 1921 records described him as a Master Mariner, so it could be that he became a pilot around the time of JW III (1832) assuming there wasn't a limit on age, as he would have been about 41 years old. Hopefully, I should be able to get to Liverpool Maritime Museum in the next two weeks to check it out. I presume you don't need an appointment to look at the archives.
Thanks again for your help.
John.
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Hi John
Sorry, there WAS a limit on age. Maybe I didn't explain the situation correctly but if they weren't indentured as an Apprentice Liverpool Pilot in their 'teens (usally about 16) then there was no chance of becoming a Pilot. He could have been a Pilot in another Port, but not Liverpool.
This was why I said he could not have been a Master Mariner AND a Liverpool Pilot.
My knowledge is gained from 40 years as a Liverpool Pilot being the 4th generation from my family dating back to 1847.
No, you don't need an appointment for the Maritime Museum but I'd check the opening times. Only pencils are allowed for notes.
My advice would be to look backwards from 1832 otherwise you could spend a considerable amount of time there.
Best of luck
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and thanks for the advice.
Cheers,
John.
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Hi again John,
I have found the missing entries in another publication, in fact it's the whole page that was missig. It's in 'Beyond the Bar' by Barrie Youde, another retired pilot of similar vintage.
JW (I) As previously intimated - Licenced in 1766 but no further details.
JW (II) First licenced 1819 - Retired 1855 - Died 1857. He looks a possibility, being licenced at the age of 28, but does his death date fit in with what you know about him?
At least it will save you a visit to MMM, unless he's your man when his complete pilotage record will be in the 'Pilot Character Book'.
Regards
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the info, but not sure if he's a fit. According to the 1841 census John Williams was born circa 1791 outside of the county of Lancaster. He married his first wife in Liverpool in 1811 and some time later married a second time (1841 census), although we have not been able to find a record of the marriage. According to the 1851 census his second wife was recorded as a widow although his name appears on the marriage certificate of his eldest daughter on 15th December 1851. As you have said "Williams is a common name". Probably I should check out JWII in the Maritime Museum even if to just eliminate him from my list.
Thanks very much for you help it's been extremely useful.
Regards,
John.
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Hi,
I am searching for any info on John Green who was a Master Mariner somewhere between 1900 and 1935 sailing out of Liverpool or maybe Fleetwood. He is believed to have been the captain of the SS Voges and the SS Lormont during WW1 on voyages between Liverpool and Bordeaux. Any info would be much appreciated
thanks
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Hi Willy
Sorry, can't help.
He's not on the list of Liverpool Pilots.
Dave
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Thanks anyway
Bill
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Hello Dave
Wonder if you could do a look up for me as well. Unfortunately his name is WILLIAM JONES :( I know from research online that there are (or should I say were) quite a number of William Jones's as Pilots around 1865.
The details I have from his marriage certificate to my ancestor Mary Lees in 1865 are:
William Jones age full, occupation Pilot, address Virginia Street, Liverpool, Fathers name William Jones, occupation Master Mariner.
Witnessed by John and Ellen Ward.
I think the Jones family originally came from PORT MADOC.
Any help much appreciated
Jean
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Hi Jean
I am in Italy at the moment but will be home on Wednesday 8th, so will be only too happy to look up Wm Jones then, if that's OK with you?
Regards
Dave
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No rush Dave, when you have time.
Many thanks
Jean
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Hi Dave
Jean McGurn posted her William JONES on Celia's thread back in April this year, she and I (Jean, that is) subsequently corresponding in some depth about him on another list to which we both subscribed at the time.
If I'm not mistaken, I identified her man in Youde as :-
JONES W (xi)
Born 1840 [Portmadoc]
Licensed 1861
Died 1882
I promised Jean I'd try to look him up in the Pilot's Character Book next time I was in the vicinity of Albert Dock, but with so much going on in Liverpool this year (and invariably having visitors in tow each time I've been there) I haven't as yet been able to oblige.
Still have it in my notebook as a "to do", so would appreciate it if you'd let me know if you propose to have a look in the PCB yourself, so I can cross it off my list?
Regards
Gordon
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Hi Gordon
I'm away most of October so not in the immediate future.
There is a slight possibility I may be in the Albert Dock area towards the end of November, but nothing delinite as yet.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for continuing where Celia left off. A great job by both of you.
When you get chance could you look see if a Joseph Edward Wood is amongst your pilots. Birthdate approx 1840.
Many thanks. Lesanne.
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Lesanne
Willdo, home tomoz pm
Dave
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Lesanne,
There is an Edward Woods listed, dob1832, qualified as an Apprentice Pilot in 1864.
Looks like he retired in 1905 and died the same year? Probably too old to be still a serving Pilot at 73 but then, was possible I suppose.
If this is the same person you are looking for a more detailed record of his service can be found in the 'Pilot Character Book' at Merseyside Maritime museum, Albert ock, Liverpool.
Regards
Dave
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:D Thanks for that Dave.... I wuz in L'pool not so long ago too!!! I hope to get there again soon.
Is there anything I can do at the National Archives.... going tomorrow.
Lesanne. :D
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Lesanne,
Thanks for the offer.
I don't think I could burden you with any request for my GG grandfather c1801.
It would involve looking on Mariner's lists up to 1851 as his wife was a Master Mariners widow by then.
It's possible I'm visiting my d'ter in Walton on Thames later this month so may make a visit then.
You could help by pointing me in the right direction, so I don't waste loads of time going down the wrong track.
Many thx
Dave
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:D Dave... Join our Scavenger Hunt list.... 8)
Have you already posted for your Gt Grandad
Lesanne
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Lesanne,
No, I haven't
Dave
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I would appreciate if you could look up the name Alexander Dill. We think he was a Master Mariner of a ship called Enderley. We don't know anything else, especially what company he worked for and if he worked on any other vessels.
Thanks in advance
Kirsten
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Hi Kirsten
He's not on the list of Liverpool Pilots.
Master Mariners were Masters (or Captains) of Merchant ships trading either in the Home or Foreign trade. Knowing that he was on a ship called the 'Enderley' could be of some help in your rsearch.
You could try Google or this site which gives advice on searching for Master Mariners www.mariners-l.co.uk/UKMasters.html
For my own part, my GG Grandfather was a Master Mariner c1800. I have experienced extreme difficulty trying to trace him, or his birthplace, until last Friday when I visited the NRO at Kew. There I found an entry for several voyages he made between 1836/1840 and the ships that he sailed on. Well worth the journey from the North West.
Best of luck
Dave
PS perhaps you could post on Rootschat but be more specific, such as:-
Help!! Ship 'Enderley', the year, Captain Alexander Dill and see what replies you receive.
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Dave, I have quite a few Pilots in my family tree and recently visited the Maritime Museum, but time was limited and didn't check a date of birth in the Pilot Character Book for one of them. Would you be able to look in your book for me please to see if his year of birth is given so that I confirm I have the correct information:
William Rowlands [b. 7 May 1795]
Licensed: 30th May 1817
Died: 29th January 1831
Your help very much appreciated.
Regards,
Lyn :)
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Hi Lyn,
Unfortunately neither of the books I have show his DOB.
All that's recorded is licensed in 1817 and died of a disease of the brain in 1831.
It's possible that you didn't note it because it wasn't recorded.
I might be visiting Albert Dock w/b 17th so, if I do, will look for his DOB for you.
Whenever I visit a RO I never seem to have enough time !!
Kind regards
Dave
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Hello Dave, Thank you ever so much for looking him up for me, I'm very grateful. Also for your offer to look in the Pilot Book for me on your next visit, but I do understand how quickly time passes - I will try to get back to Liverpool again this year, in the meantime, many thanks once again.
Kind regards
Lyn
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Hi Dave
Is there any chance that you could look up a Thomas Macklin (1881 - 1938) to see if he is on the list of Mersey pilots??
Any help would be appreciated.
Kind regards
Crystal
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Hi Crystal
Sorry, no he's not in the list
Regards
Dave
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Hi Dave
Thanks for checking for me!
Crystal :)
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Hi,
I 'm trying to find some info on great,great ,great Grandpa Joseph Bennett. Born about 1803. Was a liverpool pilots from about 1825. Unfortunaly that all the info I have at this time
Thanks
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This looks to be BENNETT J (ii) in Youde - licensed 1823, died 1857.
The 1851 Census has:-
HO 107/2189 folio 256 page 9
45 Prince Edwin Street, Everton
Joseph BENNETT, 50, pilot, LAN Liverpool
Ann, wife, 47, LAN Liverpool
John, son, U, 21, fisherman, LAN Liverpool
Alice, daur, 19, at home, LAN Liverpool
Joseph, son, 17, sailmaker apprentice, LAN Liverpool
Martha Ann, daur, 16, envelope maker, LAN Liverpool
Margaret, daur, 15,LAN Liverpool
Thomas, son, 11, LAN Liverpool
William, son, 9, LAN Liverpool
In the 1841 Census eldest son John is listed as John G, suggesting that this might be his baptism on the IGI :-
17 August 1829
Liverpool St Peter
John Green BENNETT
Parents Joseph BENNETT and Ann
The IGI also has this baptism:-
7 October 1801
Liverpool St Nicholas
Joseph BENNETT
Parents Thomas BENNETT and Martha WILLIAMS
And this one :-
19 August 1799
Liverpool St Nicholas
Thomas BENNETT
Parents Thomas BENNETT and Martha GREEN
And this marriage :-
2 September 1795
Liverpool St Peter
Thomas BENNETT and Martha GREEN
Wonder if the 1801 baptism entry for Joseph is erroneous - mother's maiden name should read GREEN, not WILLIAMS?
Gordon
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Thank God You are keeping up the Good work!!
I am looking for any Walker or Enslow that might have been out of Liverpool 1820-1855- Pilots, Mariners and Sailors.
Thanking you with anticipation Joseph Walker in Texas.
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Hi
James Walker was a Liverpool Pilot from 1813 until his death in 1837.
There is no mention of any Enslow's.
As far as Mariners and Sailors are concerned the research is far more complex.
A visit to the National Archives at Kew, London appears to be the only way to progress, unless you are willing to employ a researcher on your behalf.
If you visit www.mariners-l.co.uk that explains the process for researching Merchant Seamen from 1835, when records began.
I have been down this road recently and you can view my results under 'occupation' on this site entitled 'Voyage Records - NA - Is this correct?'
Hope this is of some help
Regards
Dave
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Hi there :)
wondered if you could do a look up for me?
I was looking for a John Shephard (b.1803) who was a master pilot on the mersey
thanks very much for any help
Rachael
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Could you help me with more information on Samuel Howson Jones? According to the 1851 to 1891 census returns he was a Master Pilot/Retired Master Pilot. He was born in Amlwch, Anglesey; according to the census records in 1816 but I believe the exact date was 30 September 1815. He moved to Liverpool after 1841. He died in Liverpool between July and September 1900. He was not always known as Samuel Howson Jones. The 'Howson' appears on some records and not on others. As far as I can tell he first uses it in the 1881 census
Thanks
Edward
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Listed as Liverpool Pilots in Barry Youde's 'BEYOND THE BAR' :-
SHEPHERD J (i)
Born 1802, licenced 1821, retired 1869, died 1878
JONES S (ii)
Born 1815, licenced 1837, retired 1876, died 1900
Further information (as regards spouse, dependent children etc) may be available from the Pilot Character Books held in the Merseyside Maritime Museum archives at Albert Dock, Liverpool.
Gordon
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thanks a million ! :)
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Gordon,
Thanks for the reply. I'm intrigued as he is on the 1841 census as living in Amlwch yet he was licensed in 1837. Would I have to go to the MMM to sort it out?
Edward
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Hi Edward
Dave will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but it may have been quite feasible for a licensed Liverpool Pilot to reside in Amlwch since Point Lynas was (still is?) one of the main boarding stations.
From memory, the Pilot Character Books in the MMM don't show place of residence - just names of spouse & dependent children, to which boat the pilot belonged, date of death plus any commendation or necessary disciplinary action.
If you do plan to visit the archives yourself note the rather restricted visiting times viz 10:30am to 04:30pm on Tuesdays to Thursdays only.
Good luck
Gordon
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Gordon
Many thanks. Your comments are very helpful and I'll try to get to the MMM to see what they have on him at some point in the future.
You have put another piece of the jigsaw into my family history as he is my gg grandfather.
Edward
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Hello davecigar
I have been meaning to ask you, I am curious ;D What is an Upmaster.I still have some bits taken from the old newspapers. In a N.W Chronicle it gave a death of Owen Jones Esq of Newbough,Ang where he is described as Late upmaster of No 10.
Celia
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Sorry Celia,
I haven't got a clue.
Does the 'No 10' refer to Downing Street?
Baron Newborough was a member of Parliament for Caernarvonshire so maybe he had some influence!
That's the best I can come up with
Regards
Davecigar
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I must admit it doesn't mention the words Boat or Pilot.I just assumed 10 was a pilot boat number,my Mistake i should have read it slower at the time ;D
Celia
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Hi, I'm looking for a Richard Parry born approx 1840-42 living at 107 Pitt Street in Liverpool in 1862. His occupation is listed as 'Pilot' on his marriage cert. Would you be able to do the lookup for me ? Many thanks.
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Hi Paul
There are 7 Richard Parry's in the list of pilots.
The most likely match is no.6 on the list:-
Born 1849
First licenced 1869
Retired 1901
Died 1907
The previous R Parry was 1st licenced in 1844
and the next entry was not until 1940, so I've ruled those out.
If you think this is the RP you are looking for then a comprehensive record of his pilotage career can be found in the 'Pilot Character Book' at the Maritime Museum, Albert Dock, Liverpool.
If you require more info regarding pilotage in Liverpool, I'll be happy to answer any questions
Regards
Davecigar
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Hi
Please could you look up Leonard R Crasswell - born about 1911 in South Shields.
My Mum remembers him working as a pilot on the Mersey.
Thanks
Sue
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Hi Sue
In Italy until Monday.
Will look up then for you
Regards
Dave
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Hi Sue/Dave
There's no Liverpool pilot Leonard R CRASSWELL listed in Barrie Youde's 'Beyond the Bar'.
Could he have been crew on one of the pilot vessels, perhaps?
Gordon
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hi dave ,can you tell me anythink on a liverpool pilot called JOHN WILLIAMS ,active around 1860 1890 ,regards maurice ps you can give me a ring if you wish (*)
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Thanks
I will keep looking! I am a bit new to all this!
A
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Hi Enville100,
I'm away until the 2nd july, but will gladly look for John Williams 1860/1890 then
Regards
Dave
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Hello Dave
I have been asked by a family member to see if you have a Frederick Ashworth born 1835c on your list of Liverpool River Pilots.
Thank you
Edna
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Hi Edna,
Yes I can confirm that Frederick Charles Ashworth (born 1835) became a licenced Liverpool Pilot in 1856.
The only other info says he became an Appropriated (choice) Pilot for Guion Line in 1870. This means that although still a Liverpool Pilot able to pilot any ship into, and out of the Port of Liverpool, if a ship of Guion Shipping Co was due to arrive or sail from Liverpool, then he would be released from the list to pilot one of their ships.
A complete record of F C Ashworth's Pilotage career can be found in the 'Pilot Character Book', held at the Merseyside Maritime Museum, Albert Dock, Liverpool.
Regards
Dave
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Thanks Dave I know he will be pleased with this information and I am sure I can get the rest of his career from Maritime Museum Liverpool
Thank you
Edna
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Edna,
Just make sure you check the opening times.
It would be frustrating to have a wasted journey.
Dave
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Yes Dave I think they only open about twice a week for viewing the records.
Edna
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Hi
James Walker was a Liverpool Pilot from 1813 until his death in 1837.
There is no mention of any Enslow's.
As far as Mariners and Sailors are concerned the research is far more complex.
A visit to the National Archives at Kew, London appears to be the only way to progress, unless you are willing to employ a researcher on your behalf.
If you visit www.mariners-l.co.uk that explains the process for researching Merchant Seamen from 1835, when records began.
I have been down this road recently and you can view my results under 'occupation' on this site entitled 'Voyage Records - NA - Is this correct?'
Hope this is of some herelp
Regards
Dave
Most appreciated, Joe Walker
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Hi there - what a wonderful site!
I'm looking for any information on my great great grandfather THOMAS SWIFT PATTISON who was, I understand, a Pilot.
He was born in 1816 and, in 1841, was living at Eldon Place with his occupation shown as a Pilot.
Can you help me please?
Thanks.
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I would very much like to trace any record in the list of Mersey Pilots of my ancestor THOMAS MARTIN born 1826 and recorded in the 1881 census as an "annuitant pilot" living in Kirkdale, Liverpool.
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Hoofin,
Not so great as it's taken so long to reply!!!!
There are 2 Thomas Pattison's in the directory. Neither of them has a birthdate recorded.
The 1st one was licenced in 1806 and died 4 years later when a punt overturned, so that rules him out.
No 2, I think is your man. Licenced in 1835 and retired in 1857. The date of death is not recorded. There is a bit more info though. In 1856 he spent some time in Lancaster Gaol for debt. I'm not gloating though as my Great Grandfather also spent a month there in the same year, 1856. I wonder if there was a related incident? I doubt it as they were self employed and probably spent most of their time at sea, either on the pilot cutter they were attached to, or piloting a vessel.
It is possible to find out which pilot cutter a pilot was attached to (or had shares in) which can be found in the Pilot Character Book at the Merseyside Maritime Museum, Albert Dock, Liverpool. It also records all aspects of his Pilotage career. Check opening times tho'.
In a copy of "Returns relating to Pilots and Pilotage for the Port of Liverpool" dated 31/12/1854, which I have in my possession, Thomas S Pattison is aged 39 attached to No 2 Pilot Schooner "Leader" as a 'Journeyman' Pilot and was licenced to pilot any vessel. So that confirms the 'Swift' christian name. That'll do for a start,
Happy searching
Dave
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55Withins, Hi,
There are two Thomas Martins' in the directory, with very similar birth dates and other details.
No 1 was born in 1825, licenced in 1842, retired in 1880 and died in 1882. Not exemplary tho'. He appeared before the Pilotage Comittee on 19 occasions for disciplinary reasons and once for a commendation for pilotage services to a vessel in fog.
No 2 was also born in 1825, licenced in 1844, retired in 1880 and died in 1882. Nothing else recorded against his name.
Whoaaa!! Now I'm wondering whether these entries have been duplicated. I have read thro' 3 lots of "Returns Relating To Pilots " etc and can only find one Thomas Martin attached to any of the pilot cutters or schooners. In 1854 he was attached to No 10, aged 30, a 'Journeyman' Pilot licenced to pilot any vessel. In 1862, aged 38, it was No 8 pilot schooner "Pride of Liverpool. In 1867, aged 45, it was No 4 cutter "Auspicious".
A comprehensive record can be sighted in the Pilot Character Book at the Merseyside Maritime Museum, Albert Dock, Liverpool. This will also verify if there were 1 or 2 Thomas Martins' born in the same year. Worth taking a pencil and paper, as that is all they will allow. I don't think you can take photographs of the pages, unless they've changed their policy. Check the opening times tho'.
All the best
Dave
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Hi Dave
Sorry to repeat my request (original posted on 7th May 2009), but I don't appear to have had an answer since your return from Italy.
Original message below-
Hi
Please could you look up Leonard R Crasswell - born about 1911 in South Shields.
My Mum remembers him working as a pilot on the Mersey.
Thanks
Sue
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Sorry Sue but Gordon (Glenburn) replied to you so i thought that would be OK.
Sorry, Leonard R CRASSWELL not on the list of Pilots.
Maybe he had a connection with the Pilot Service or the River Mersey in another capacity.
Regards
Dave
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Hi Dave,
I am trying to find information on my great great grandfather and his son, both of which were pilots and presumably part of the Liverpool Pilot Service as they resided in or around Liverpool. Their names were William Evans and his son, Henry (or Harry) Evans. I have census data going back to the mid-1800's showing both of them as pilots, but that is all I know. Thanks!
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Arclightzero,
There are 5 Wm Evans on the list with DOB's ranging from 1809 to 1843. If you can be more specific about his age and on which census there's a good chance I can give you the info you require.
As for Henry, there are 2 entries, both Henry James Evans, one born in 1844 and one in 1864. Again, his age would help.
Awaiting your reply
Regards
Dave
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Hi Dave
Arclightzero is a recently-discovered blood-relative of mine. He's in Wisconsin (USA) so given the time differential it'll probably be a quite a while before he gets back to you
Of the twenty-four EVANS pilots listed in Youde his 2 x great-gandfather William is W(iii) - born 1833, licensed 1859, retired 1898.
W(iii)'s son Henry/Harry is H J (ii) - born 1864, licensed 1889, retired 1919, died 1938. As White Star's appropriated pilot in Liverpool, he's believed to have been a guest pilot on the TITANIC when she left Southampton in 1912, he disembarking at Queenstown and hitching a lift back into Liverpool.
W(iii) had a brother Henry EVANS (b1836 Liscard) who is described as a Liverpool Pilot in the 1861 census and on his parents' grave in Wallasey St Hilary churchyard (he died later the same year).
However, he doesn't feature in Youde so was presumably still only an apprentice at the time of his death?
Best regards
Gordon
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Hello Gordon and Dave!
Thank you for the prompt reply and Gordon, thank you for filling in some of the holes there.
I don't know if there is any more information out there beyond what Gordon has provided here, but I would be interested in knowing as much as is available. In particular, I would like to know pilot boat names if that is available. I have a ver old photograph of William sitting on what is assumed to be his pilot boat, and it would be interesting to know what boat that may have been.
Thanks!
-Ryan
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Hello Ryan
You'll find details as to what information there is regarding Liverpool Pilots, and where to find it, here:-
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/displayGuide.aspx?sid=68&sorStr=s_id%20ASC%200&serStr=&pgeInt=8&catStr=
With more information here :-
http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?show=ConNarrative.42
And here :-
http://www.old-liverpool.co.uk/Pilots.html
And some pics of Pilot Schooners here :-
http://www.liverpoolpilots.com/media-center/cutter-history/image-gallery-13.aspx/#/media/1981/Pilot Schooner 5.jpg
Details as to which pilot boats individual pilots were assigned to are held in the Pilot Character Books in the Merseyside Maritime Museum at Albert Dock, Liverpool.
Hope this is of some use.
Gordon
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Dave
might be able to help with the photo he's brilliant
Celia
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Is there a list of pilot boats available anywhere? I have a note regarding Henry Evans' boat "Venus," but I don't know if that was a pilot boat or a personal boat of his.
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Hi Ryan,
In 1854, Wm Evans is not on the "Returns Relating to Pilots and Pilotage", which also includes apprentices, although my GGF is, having been born a year earlier.
He is however on the next "Returns" list I have from 1863. His age is given as 30, he is a 'Full Pilot' attached to No 5 Boat, the schooner "Victoria and Albert". She was built in 1856 by Michael Ratsey (A boatbuilder from Cowes, Isle of Wight) (Google his name). She was 78'5" long, 17'4" beam and 9'8" draft and 61 grt (Gross registered tons). On the 13th May 1888 she was run down and sunk by the barque "Governor" 3 miles WNW of the Bar Lightship.
In 1870, same details as above.
In 1895, age 62, he was 1st Master of No 1 Boat, the schooner "Queen". She was also built by Michael Ratsey in the same year, 1856, as the "Victoria and Albert" with almost identical measurements. She was sunk in collision with the s.s "Sailor Prince" on 10th may 1891. She was salvaged and re-commissioned and withdrawn in May 1898 having been replaced by the advent of steam Pilot Cutters.
It would appear that he ended up with the biggest prize of all!! In 1897 he was 1st Master of the last sailing Pilot schooner ever built for use in Liverpool, the "George Holt". And very handsome she was too! She was built in 1892 by Phillip & Son, Dartmouth. Her length was 101' x 21' beam and 12' draft. 78grt. She was sold in 1899 to the Falkland Islands Co. for inter island trade, having been phased out after delivery of the 4th steam pilot cutter, the "David Fernie".
My GGF's career spanned the same era as he died in 1898, aged 66, whilst still a working pilot.
There is a list of Liverpool Pilot Boats from 1766, at the back of "Beyond the Bar", but I can't find a "Venus".
Regards
Dave
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Celia,
Thx for the offer.
Ryan says he has a photo, so not sure if it's the one from the Norman Morrison collection at the MMM.
Is that where yours is from?
Regards
Dave
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Ryan,
Henry J Evans is on the "Return" for 1895, aged 31. He is attached to No2 Boat, the schooner "Leader". She was built in 1856 by Thos. Harvey & Sons, Ipswich (Interesting facts on Google). 76' long x 18'9" beam x 9'2" draft and 61grt. She was sold to Preston Pilots in 1897 when Henry was transfered to No2 steam Pilot Boat "Leonard Spear" which had been built in Glasgow in 1896, the 2nd of four on order. The builders were Murdock & Murray, Port Glasgow, 128'2" long, 24'1" beam, 11'7" draft and 275grt.
From 1896 Pilots ceased to have shares in the boats, the 4 steamers being owned by the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, therefore the system gradually changed and Pilots were not attached to any particular Pilot Boat.
HJE, as well as being appropriated to White Star Line was also an appropriated to Dominion & America Line, Oceanic Steam Navigation Co., British & North Atlantic Steam Navigation Co. and International Navigation Co.
I have just discovered a card in one of my drawers depicting the "Victoria and Albert" in colour, from a painting by J.Witham. If you would like me to forward it to you, let me know your address by PM.
I have copied Wm Evan's signature from the "Register & Minute Book of the Liverpool Pilot's Mutual Benefit Society" established 3rd April 1848, which I will also send to you.
Regards
Dave
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Dave, thank you very much for the information! However, I am a little fuzzy on some of the dates. Do you have a listing for a William Evans born 1824?
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whoops, never mind. I was looking at the wrong census data.
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Thanks for this, Dave.
As well as being Ryan's direct ancestor, pilot William EVANS (b1834 New Brighton) is my first cousin thrice removed.
Incidentally, I note that your grandfather Thomas COCKRAM/COCHRAN was one of the seven pilots lost in the CHARLES LIVINGSTON incident in 1939 :-
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/pilotboat1.html
Another being my second cousin twice removed Thomas Ledsham EVANS (b1884 New Brighton) - same relationship, but once more removed, to Ryan in USA.
Regards
Gordon
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Hi Dave, nice thread.
I wonder if you can shed some light on a family mystery.
The story was that my great grand father was a ship's captain, but when doing some research, I located the family in the 1911 census. His occupation is given as Pilot. His name was William James Holme (might also be listed as Holmes). He was born in 1872. In 1911 he was living in Wavertree, Liverpool, but he later moved with his very large family (he had 10 children) to the Wirral. Could he have been a Mersey River pilot?
Thanks in advance,
Antony.
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Anthony,
He certainly was. The name rang a bell immediately but only because of my association with the Pilot Service since the day I was born!
William James Holmes b1872, licenced in 1898, retired in 1933 and died in 1941.
He was an appropriated pilot for John Glynn & Son, Furness Withy and Booth Line.
A full record of his Pilotage career can be found in the Pilot Character Book at the Merseyside Maritime Museum, Albert Dock Liverpool.
I may be able to dig up some more info for you, but time doesn't allow at the moment.
Regards
Dave
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Dave, thank you so much for the quick confirmation and the additional information.
I wish I could pop into the maritime museum, but I live in South Africa, so if you do get a chance to dig up more info I would really appreciate it.
Again, thanks again for your help!
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Hi Anthony
No doubt Dave will come up with more information when time allows, but in the meantime here's a little snippet for you free and on-line :-
Go to :- http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/findbylocation.asp. select Lancashire and click Find Directories.
On the next screen click on the word Directory in the right-hand column of the entry for Gores Directory of Liverpool & Birkenhead 1900 (Part 3 Trade & Official).
Click the box marked Browse Directory (top right).
In the ‘Go to Image’ box change the 1 to read 489 (of 671).
You’ll find a William J HOLMES listed as a 3rd class pilot attached to No 2 Steamer LEONARD SPEAR.
Listed three names after him is a distant relative of mine Albert E ANKERS, who was one of 19 pilots lost when the No 1 pilot boat ALFRED H READ struck a mine and sank at the Mersey Bar on 28 December 1917, as can be seen at :-
http://www.wallaseycemetery.co.uk/Alfred%20H%20Read.htm
Best regards
Gordon
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Further to my last message, anyone with sea-faring ancestors or relatives likely to have been employed by the Liverpool Pilotage Authority and who disappeared around 1917 may be interested in the following post from someone in Holland over 4 years ago :-
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28705
Regards
Gordon
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Gordon, thank you for that link!
I also noticed that attached as a 1st class pilot on the same boat is James S Holmes (S=Samuel?). I came across this Liverpool Pilot in Census when tracing William J's ancestors. William named his first child James S (S=Stewart). With 31 years age difference it is tempting to think that James S might be his father, but I could only find contrary evidence. Still, they may have been related.
I was thinking it was lucky that William was not on the ALFRED H READ or I might not have been here asking the questions, but then I recall my grandmother was born in 1909, so I would have made it anyway. ;D
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Here is a photo of William Evans sitting on the fantail of what is supposedly his pilot boat (maybe the George Holt?). I don't know if anybody is familiar with the designs of the pilot boats and can verify that this was indeed taken aboard one of the them or if this was a different vessal... There is a large steamer in the background so I assume this was taken in Liverpool harbor, again lending some validity that this was taken aboard a pilot boat.
(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/arclightzero/WEvans_0001.jpg)
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Ryan,
A pilotage colleague was visiting yesterday, who just happens to be making a scale model of No 10 the'George Holt'. He is convinced that this is the stern of No 10 as he says it was cut away twice and the first cut is clearly visible.
Also the end of the boom is visible above his head.
We think that she is in the vicinity of the Bar Light Vessel with the steamer proceeding past her stern, probably towards the channel and Liverpool.
Another immaculately dressed Liverpool pilot!!
Regards
Dave
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Dave, thank you for helping to confirm that! I suspected it may have been the George Holt based on William's age in the photo, but I couldn't be sure. As you had mentioned before, the George Holt was the last of the schooners, so I wonder if this photo was taken as a momento on one of the final voyages? It's unfortunate that there is no date to be found on the picture anywhere.
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Anthony,
William J Holmes:
The first record I have is from the "Returns Relating to Pilots and Piloting" from 1895. William is attached to No5 Boat, the schooner "Criterion", aged 23 and a Boathand (Apprentice Pilot). The "Criterion" was built in 1854, as No 10, by Thos. Harvey & Sons of Ipswich. She was 74'5" long, 15'2" beam, 9'8" draft and 61grt. She became No5 in 1888, withdrawn in 1898 and sold to the Dunkirk Pilot Service. In 1900 he is attached to No 4 Steam Pilot Boat "David Fernie", aged 28 and is a 2nd class Pilot. (Restricted to a certain tonnage). The reason I say 'attached' is because that particular boat is his base. In order to pilot ships into Liverpool he would board the ship in question and assist in the navigation. Pilots are always contracted in an advisory capacity, hence the entry in the Ship's Log, 'TMO&PA', (To Master's Orders and Pilot's Advice).
In 1906 he is on No1 spb "Francis Henderson", aged 34 and a 1st class Pilot (any size of ship).
He was born on 4/2/1872 and entered the Pilot Service as a Boathand on 23/5/1891. He was licenced as a 3rd class Pilot on 28/7/1898.
Leslie Thomas Holmes born 21/12/1902, joined the Service as a Boathand on 9/7/1919 and became a Pilot on 7/4/1927. Any relation?
William Clifford Holmes, born 24/9/1905, joined the Service on 23/5/1922. Any relation?
James S Holmes in the "Returns" in 1870, aged 26, an Apprentice with a 500 ton licence attached to No 3 Boat, the schooner "Duke". Have you found a family link? In 1895 he was on No2 schooner "Leader".
Let me know if there is a link and I'll give you a bit more info
Regards
Dave
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[do you have any record of my father RUPERT NICHOLLS .Pilot from1935 1960
Peter Nicholls
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Hi Peter,
Well I don't have any record per se, but as I've outlined before, a record of his pilotage career can be found in the Pilot Character Book at the MMM, Albert Dock, Liverpool.
I do remember him being a pilot whilst I was 'serving my time', but nothing specific.
Regards
Dave
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Dave, thanks for your response.I'll have to make a pilgrimage back home from the West country one of these moments.I've had a look at the MMM web and think I'll need a couple of days at least.I was intrigued to see Norman Morrisson mentioned,he was dad's best pal and my God -father.
Will be in touch...PETER
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for going into so much more detail. Leslie Thomas Holmes was William J Holmes' 2nd son and 3rd child. William Clifford Holmes was his 3rd son and 4th child. They were my great uncles. This is the first time I've heard that they were also in the Pilot service, although I heard that one of them was killed in the river during WWII. Great info!
I haven't found any link to the older James S Holmes at this stage. It is still possible they are related, but might just be coincidental.
William J had 2 other sons and 6 daughters (including my grandmother). William J's oldest son was James Stewart and his youngest son was Charles Christopher. I know the latter became a bookmaker. I don't know anything about his eldest son. Still a w.i.p.
William J's father was James Holmes, born 1843, a Sawyer by trade, and his mother was Sarah Jane Tod. The 1881 census has them living at 12 Gaskell Street, Toxteth Park. Both his maternal grandfather (William George Tod) and father-in-law (Samuel Daniel) were master mariners.
Any further information you can provide on the sons would be great. Thanks again for your sterling work in this thread!
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Hi Dave
My great great great grandfather was a ship's pilot from Liverpool. I believe that during the 1861 census he was on board The Duke, pilot schooner, his name was James Porter. Do you have any information about him?
Regards
Shakey
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Hi Shakey,
James Porter born 1815.
Licenced in 1839.
Retired in 1865, aged 50.
Died in 1900.
Who could argue with that! Retired for 35 years! Must have been a record in those days.
He was attached to No 3 Pilot Schooner "The Duke" in 1854 as a Journeyman Pilot, licenced to pilot any vessel in or out of Liverpool.
"The Duke" was new, having only been built in1852 by W. Buckley Jones. Size: 69'x15'7"x7'6" draft and 62 grt. 14 pilots were attached to "The Duke" with 3 Masters (Captains) who were also licenced pilots.
In 1863 he was still with "The Duke", aged 48 and the oldest of the 19 licenced pilots. Their ages ranging from 25 upwards. There were also 7 apprentices, who were the crew.
He was one of the original members of the Liverpool Pilot's Mutual Benefit Society established on 3rd April 1848.
As previously indicated, a full record of his pilotage career can be found at the Merseyside Maritime Museum, Albert Dock, Liverpool.
Regards
Dave.
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Thanks Dave, that is great.
I will take a look in the maritime museum next time I am down in Liverpool, or maybe I will get my mum to do it for me, since she is closer - and it will be of interest to her too, since James Porter is from her line.
Cheers
Paula (Shakey)
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David, on looking at Dad's list of sailings on SS Scythia,he starts off as a 'deck-hand' but has a selection of G.S :: OvS : and other titles in 'position in ships company' column on the manifest sheet.Can you advise as to what they mean.Kind regards PETER
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Hi,
I have been researching my family tree and have come across a Master Pilot in Liverpool called John Corrin, born ~1813 and died 1866. I would appreciate it if you would be able to look up his name and see if there are any details.
Thanks.
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In his book 'Beyond the Bar' Barrie Youde lists a J CORRIN as licensed (as a Liverpool Pilot) in 1833 but died the same year. This is patently incorrect since the Liverpool Mercury of 12 March 1866 carried this obituary :-
CORRIN - March 11, at his residence 126 Duke Street, aged 54, Mr John Corrin, master of No 9 pilot boat. The interment will take place at Smithdown Lane cemetery on Wednesday morning next at half-past ten. Friends will please accept of this intimation.
Youde also has in his list of Liverpool Pilots :-
CORRIN R - born 1831, licensed 1856, retrired 1882, died 1896
CORRIN W - born 1822, licensed 1845, retired 1869, died 1889
Hope this is of some use.
Gordon
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In his book 'Beyond the Bar' Barrie Youde lists a J CORRIN as licensed (as a Liverpool Pilot) in 1833 but died the same year. This is patently incorrect since the Liverpool Mercury of 12 March 1866 carried this obituary :-
CORRIN - March 11, at his residence 126 Duke Street, aged 54, Mr John Corrin, master of No 9 pilot boat. The interment will take place at Smithdown Lane cemetery on Wednesday morning next at half-past ten. Friends will please accept of this intimation.
Youde also has in his list of Liverpool Pilots :-
CORRIN R - born 1831, licensed 1856, retrired 1882, died 1896
CORRIN W - born 1822, licensed 1845, retired 1869, died 1889
Hope this is of some use.
Gordon
Hope You dont mind me adding on Gordon..(Buriels Toxteth Park)
CORRIN Mary 51 years Wife 5 Newton Street 13 December 1882 2793 55854 C D Left 226 352 CEM 9/1/12
CORRIN Robert 65 years Pilot 50 Hamilton Road Liverpool 4 November 1896 3977 79252 C D Left 226 352 CEM 9/1/16
GEARING Beatrice Maud 11 months Infant 42 Maitland Street 26 May 1890 3395 67870 C D Left 226 352 CEM 9/1/14
GEARING Eliza Jane 55 years - 23 Chepstow Street Walton 3 December 1915 5502 109696 C D Left 226 352 CEM 9/1/22
CORNELL Edward 32 years Wife 126 Duke Street 6 May 1868 1437 28710 C N 418 352 CEM 9/1/6
CORRIN Jemima 79 years - 158 Kensington 7 June 1898 4114 81983 C N 418 352 CEM 9/1/17
CORRIN John 54 years Pilot 126 Duke Street 14 March 1866 1184 23672 C N 418 352 CEM 9/1/5
DUCKWORTH Isabella C 44 years Wife 37 Friar Street 22 November 1896 3980 79318 C N 418 352 CEM 9/1/16
Hope these Help
Regards
Iria
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Hi Iria
Course I don't mind - every little helps!
PS. Presumably you're my old friend Iria Louise from the L&SWL forum, from which I am of course now banned for life? :-(
My best wishes to you
Gordon
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Hi Gordon
Glad I Could Help In Some Way
Yes its Me the same Iria Louise ..who has also been Banned from the L&SWL Board.. I Just Couldnt Afford to Pay for the Other Site which you had to Join..its a shame really because i loved helping people on there also
Regards
Iria
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Hi Dave
I have just been up to Liverpool and done some research, whilst there I checked in at the Maritime Museum and looked at their pilots books. There was a whole host of my family in it all Taggarts.
Richard born 1841, Robert born 1811, robert born 1860, Robert L born 1895, William born 1837, William James born 1867 and John born 1844, I took notes from the book. Does your book give any more information about them?
Since spending the last four days around the Mersey , I would love to learn more about the pilots . Can you suggest the best books to give me an insight to their work? Also is there any other places I could find records about my pilot ancestors.
Thanks for your time
Atticus
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Hi, Glenburn!
Thank you for the information re Pilot John Corrin, which identifies an error in the record as shown in Beyond The Bar. Doubtless there are other errors. Many omissions are self-evident. It is always a pleasure to see an error corrected or a part-record completed.
Best Rgds,
BY
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Hy BY (presumably Barrie Youde?)
There are indeed other errors in the list of Liverpool Pilots shown in 'Beyond the Bar', including the following relating to two of my great-great-grand-uncles :-
EVANS G, licensed 1827, died in service 1879.
George EVANS (b1804 Little Meols) was in fact drowned near Bell Buoy on 3 January 1849, aged 44, as reported at http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/deathsandinquests1849.html
EVANS W(i), born 1809, licensed 1832, died in service 1833.
William EVANS (b1809 New Brighton - brother to the above George) was in fact lost in the wreck of the Norwegian brig SIBAL at Point Lynas on 15 December 1874, aged 65, the incident being reported at
http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?show=ConNarrative.42&chapterId=206
Best wishes
Gordon Evans
Wallasey UK
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Very many thanks, Gordon, for information provided.
Beyond The Bar is now in its Second Edition. As there are no plans for a Third Edition I must ask that you'll kindly accept my apologies for any errors identified. Please be assured that no error was intentional!
Very best,
BY
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Dear Gordon,
Please forgive observations a century-and-a-half later on the loss of your two ancestors:
1849 - Liverpool Journal reports George Evans as "quite dead" at the bell buoy. All of our professional forefathers are to be saluted. Do we know where was "the bell buoy"? There were a great many bell buoys in later years. As to "quite dead" - this might be seen (fairly obviously) as a mid-nineteenth century example of local-rag journalistic tautology.
1874 - William Evans - Life lost at Point Lynas, aged 65. Having survived such a long and arduous professional life, the loss of his life at that stage through perils of the sea which were commonplace at the time must have been particularly hard for his family.
Many thanks for the contribution which you make to the overall picture of family life, which was (and still is) such a strong feature of the Pilot Service ; quite apart from any professional maritime attributes.
Very best,
BY
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Hi Barrie
In addition to the two already mentioned, at least three more of the dozen or so Liverpool Pilots in my family tree gave their lives in the course of duty :-
Edward LEDDER (b1822 Liscard) was lost from the 1000-ton iron sailing ship CHACABUCO when she was run down & sunk off Great Orme by the 198-ton Liverpool/Dublin steamer TORCH on 1 March 1873.
Albert Edward ANKERS (b1874 Liverpool) was one of nineteen pilots lost when the ALFRED H READ struck a mine in Liverpool Bay on 28 December 1917.
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28705
Thomas Ledsham EVANS (b1884 New Brighton) was one of seven pilots losts when the CHARLES LIVINGSTON ran ashore at Ainsdale during a black-out on 26 November 1939.
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/pilotboat1.html
Another - Henry James EVANS (b1864 Liverpool) - had a near miss when the sand- hopper BETA was run down & sunk by the Booth liner AMBROSE in the River Mersey in January 1913. Henry James was one of only two survivors from the BETA, on which he'd hitched a lift back into Liverpool after taking a White Star liner out to sea.
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/BETA2.html
According to family lore this man was a 'guest pilot' on the TITANIC when she left Southampton in 1912, disembarking in Queenstown and making his own way back to Liverpool from there. He died peacefully in his bed at the Cottage Hospital in Holywell, Flint, in 1938 at the age of 72.
Incidentally, I wouldn't have thought apologies were necessary for any errors in the Appendix to 'Beyond the Bar'. If I'm not mistaken the source for this information was Tebay's 'Liverpoool Pilot Service', which is where the original errors occur?
Good to make your acquaintance, by the way.
Best regards
Gordon
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Many thanks, Gordon.
What an interesting and splendid family record!
You are quite right that much (but by no means all) of the information in the List as it appears in Beyond The Bar was taken from John Tebay's "List of Pilots", following his extensive trawl through the Minutes of the Pilotage Committee. Much other information came from the various pension funds etc. Cross-references were made as far as was reasonably possible; but yes, I did rely to a great extent on Tebay's trawl.
Beyond The Bar was intended originally to be a collection of photographs. It gradually evolved into an Addendum (and update) to John Rees's authoritative "History of the Liverpool Pilotage Service 1949" to provide in particular an outline account of the highly effective apprenticeship-system; about which Rees was largely silent: and which has of course now disappeared.
As a small child I would listen avidly to my father's recollections of his own days as an apprentice (with hardship and humour in equal measure) , whereupon I was hooked.
Repeated thanks,
BY
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Hi again, Barrie
As an almost exact contemporary, do you perhaps have any memories of my 4th cousin John BROWN (b1941) who attained his Liverpool Pilot's licence in 1965 - a year before you attained yours?
In particular, I wondered if you might know what it was he did to merit an award (HSA) from the Liverpool Shipwreck and Humane Society in 1961 - presumably whilst still an apprentice?
He was of course a grandson of Robert Glendenning MALIN (b1874 Liverpool), commodore of the Cunard White Star fleet from 1931 until 1935.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,748365,00.html
Robert MALIN's wife Gertrude EVANS (b1872 Liverpool) - daughter of Liverpool pilot Henry James EVANS (b1844 Liverpool) - was my 2nd cousin twice removed.
Sadly, John BROWN died at the early age of 47 in 1988, the same year you yourself left the service?
Regards
Gordon
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Hi, Gordon,
Yes, I knew John well. We had been at school together at Liverpool College.
May I suggest that you try the Shipwreck & Humane Society for a copy of the citation for his Award? Certainly I never heard John speak of it, and my own information was derived from Tebay's List. I do, though, have a recollection (from memory, which might be completely wrong) that it was granted to him when he was an apprentice for his prompt action in rescuing a life which would otherwise have been lost through drowning.
John was a good friend and a credit to us all.
Very best,
BY
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Hi Barrie
Thank you for the suggestion re John BROWN's award - will follow this up. (John's elder brother Peter is believed to be still alive, domiciled in Derbyshire, but not in very good health nowadays so I can't really approach him for the information).
Should you be at all interested, my nom-de-plume originates in the vessel depicted in this 1856 painting by the celebrated Italian maritime artist Michele Renault :-
http://www.artnet.com/Artists/LotDetailPage.aspx?lot_id=001237BA208FCA73
My great-grandfather William EVANS (b1830 New Brighton) joined this American-built, American-owned ship as first mate in New York that same year (1856), tramping the world on her for almost seven years until she entered Liverpool (for the first and only time) on 8th December 1862. She was shortly afterwards arrested by the Admiralty Marshall and sold following a petition by the crew for non-payment of wages (during American Civil War days, of course).
Would be intriguing to know whether any of William EVANS' many Liverpool Pilot relatives were allotted the task of guiding the GLENBURN down the Bar Racon in December 1862?
PS. My paternal grandfather Edward Glenburn EVANS (who sadly I never met) is reputed to have been born on board this vessel sometime in 1861, somewhere between Cadiz (Spain) and Montevideo (Uruguay).
Best regards
Gordon
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Hi, Gordon,
Many thanks for you interesting further information.
You'll forgive me for pointing out that the task of guiding anything down the Bar Racon in 1862 would have been extremely difficult (and time-consuming!) for anybody, as the first Racon (Radar Responder Beacon) was established at the Bar only in the early 1970s (about 1972, from memory) when the Bar Lightship "Planet" was withdrawn.
As to the first Liverpool Lightship, JS Rees tells us (p 78) that a Lightship marked "NW" was established on 1st December 1813 at the north-west spit of East Hoyle Bank, "one mile from the North-West buoy".
He also tells us (p 157) that on 2nd September 1873 the North-West Lightvessel was moved NWxW3/4W from her former position "and the first Bar Lightvessel was established in the approach to the principal northern channel."
Thus it seems that in 1862 there was not even a Bar Lightship - and certainly no Racon (if you might forgive my train-spotting!).
As to whoever might have piloted the Glenburn at Liverpool in 1862, your best chance of discovery would probably be a trawl through the Pilot-Boat log-books for that year. If they have survived, they should be at the Maritime Museum. I'm not certain, though, that those log-books will have survived.
Hope this helps,
Very best,
BY
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Hi again, Barrie
My suggestion that there would have been a Bar Racon in 1862 was of course very much tongue-in-cheek. In retrospect, perhaps I should have punctuated it with a 'smiley'. :-)
As regards identifying the pilot who took the GLENBURN into Liverpool in December 1862 two of my brothers and I have spent many hours, days, weeks even, poring over all available pilot service documentation in the MMM archives without success, so there would seem a possibility that the Pilot-Boat log-books you mention haven't in fact survived.
Will have one more try next time I'm there, when the weather has warmed up a little.
Best regards
Gordon
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Hi, Gordon,
Tee-hee! - And many thanks for reminding me of information relating to the history of the Bar Lightship etc. If I ever knew it I had certainly forgotten it; and can only confirm that Rees's book is a goldmine of relevant information.
Hope your search is fruitful, but there will be (at a guess) far more Pilot-boat log-books which have been destroyed (if only for want of storage space) than have survived.
Very best,
BY
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I don't know if anyone is interested or not,but I thought i would mention.That on my topic on the Cheshire board Merchant seamen M.I Family Graves there are a few for Liverpool Pilots.
hence
In Loving Memory Of
Alfred Beloved Son Of William & Ann Davies
Apprentice of Liverpool Pilotage Service
Who Lost his life Through the mining of
H.M.X "Alfred H. Read" At the Bar 28th Dec 1917 aged 21
Years.
Unfortunately you will have to trawl the pages because it was one of the first things i did I few years ago.So they are not in any order ;D
Celia
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INSPIRATION OF YOUTH
"Give her the works, Sidney!" barked the Master, down the blower,
" The Pilot wants full speed and not one revolution slower!"
Our ship, a liner-steamship in UK/Australia trade
Was powerful and graceful. All was of the highest grade.
A four month trip: A dozen ports: Antipodes and back:
We were an ocean greyhound, keeping schedule, keeping track.
Wool: fridge-cargo, meat and butter: passengers First Class.
No stain was seen upon her decks, nor tarnish on her brass.
The Master was a martinet: a formalist : a terror.
No slack was tolerated. Not the slightest human error.
The Officers would stand aside through more than courtesy.
Through iron will he ruled us all, as Neptune rules the Sea.
And I, an humble Midshipman, an awkward, gangling youth,
Was terrified of every bark. That is the simple truth.
Four months I listened to this man. I heeded every warning.
He frightened me at dead of night, at noon and in the morning.
The only civil words I heard, throughout the voyage made,
Were spoken to the passengers: But they, of course, had paid.
Nearly home: Gibraltar passed and entered in the log:
Double-watches soon, for meeting European fog.
The Master on the bridge, chain smoking, peering through the murk:
Radar in its early days. Quoth he, "Does that thing work?"
Other ships approaching were detected through the ears.
The martinet relied upon experience of years.
And who was at the radar, no more trusted than the set?
'Twas I, the first-trip novice hand. So much could go wrong yet.
St George's Channel: Bardsey: What a foul and fearful night.
Off Holyhead at last the look-out saw the Pilot-light.
All was ready, ladder rigged, the speed reduced and dropped:
The Master, barking, paced the bridge. The smoking never stopped.
The Pilot came on board. The Master shook him by the hand.
"Dear boy! How good to see you! You have all arrangements planned?
Middy! Take the Pilot's coat and hang it up for drying!
Middy! Make some tea! Can you do that, for want of trying?"
The tension since Gibraltar showed that it had greatly eased.
The Pilot had the con: the Master very clearly pleased.
"How are things, now Mister Pilot? Tell me what you need?
For docking-time at Liverpool, how do you rate our speed?"
(Now, Sidney was the Engineer, the Chief of all his Ilk.
Relations with the bridge were formal. Not quite smooth as silk.)
The Pilot spoke. The Master strode unto the telephone.
"Keep her going, Sidney, if you stoke her on your own!
Give her the works, now, Sidney! The Pilot wants full speed!"
The martinet a messenger. My heart began to bleed!
"Give her the works, Sidney!" barked the Master down the blower.
"The Pilot wants full speed and not a revolution slower!"
The moment thus confirmed a thought which I had long possessed:-
To be a Pilot's son I was most fortunate and blessed.
For I had seen a martinet most pleased to recognise
The worth of any Pilot now, before my very eyes,
At highest standards operating in the Merchant Fleet.
A Pilot stands in independence. On his own two feet.
And I would be a Pilot, if I might be good enough,
To satisfy the martinet. If I could learn my stuff.
"Give her the works, Sidney!", how such simple words could mark
The confirmation of a youth, that foggy evening dark.
"Give her the works, Sidney!" Were there ever words so sweet?
Or explanation given for a function more complete?
The martinet earned his reward for sailing far and wide.
The Pilot? He did likewise. Why? Let other men decide:
I'd like to ask the martinet. Perhaps one day I can,
In the knowledge that he proved he was a fellow sailorman.
"Give her the works, Sidney!" How those magic words inspired -
As I became a Pilot, too, - long after they retired.
The moral being, I suppose - to mark the end of it,
That nothing is more proper than to see the biter bit!
The words "If you stoke her on your own" are poetic licence. Otherwise the above verse is a true and verbatim account of the occasion in January 1960 when the Blue Funnel liner ss Jason embarked Pilot OG Small off Holyhead. The ship was homeward-bound from Australia, carrying (amongst her passengers) the Australian Olympic show-jumping team together with their twelve horses accommodated in loose-boxes built on the after well-deck, all bound for the Olympic Games at Rome that year.
The Master was Captain John Gould, a Welsh-speaking Anglesey man. Amongst the crew of 72 were about a dozen more Welsh-speakers (mostly also Anglesey men), thus upholding Blue Funnel's unofficial claim to comprise "The Welsh Navy". The Chief Engineer was Sidney Smith of Greasby, Wirral.
It was the practice of the Blue Funnel line to embark the Liverpool Pilot by special arrangement off Holyhead, as opposed to the usual practice of taking the Pilot from the Pilot-Cutter cruising off Point Lynas.
BY
-
Thanks Glenburn and Iria for the information re: John Corrin ( from begining of Feb), it always feels good to get so much more information. Alot of the information from burials at Toxteth park are also relevant to my family, but I didn't understand all the numbers with them. Are thay the plot details and are the graves still likely to be there? Bit of a novice at this so really appreciate the help!
Janet
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FOR ALL WHO HAVE LIVERPOOL ROOTS
On Tuesday 4th May to Saturday 8th May, West Kirby Light Opera Society performs "Once Upon A Time At The Adelphi!" by Phil Willmott - originally a sell-out production at Liverpool Playhouse in Capital of Culture Year.
FOR TICKETS - Please call BOX OFFICE on 0151 666 0000
ONCE UPON A TIME AT THE ADELPHI!
Once upon a time at the Adelphi,
Obligatory were the Ps and Qs:
When clientele was gentrified or wealthy,
Unlike the clientele of TJ Hughes.
Palatial the interior, and rightly,
Reflecting on success in global trade
In slavery (perhaps, but say it lightly,)
Two hundred years ago was fortune made:
Establishing a gateway to the Empire,
The pomp on which the sun would never set.
When God and England jointly were the Umpire,
And nought would ever change. D'you wanna bet?
What happened? Whassamarrer? Don't you get it?
The world has changed. Two wars, now clearly Pyrrhic.
Derby House. The convoys. Don't forget it.
Some decades later, what is there but lyric?
Trade! That's what! The 'Pool still feeds this Island.
The cargo throughput never has been greater.
Though England might be now a when-or-why land,
Yet England still relies upon the freighter.
Adelphi served the privileged and spongers
By standards of the highest standard-makers;
The great, the good, the world-wide credit-mongers
And Shipping Lines now long-gone to the breakers.
A monument to trade, that's what you are now!
Old Granny Dear, Adelphi, if you like.
Your clientele will not have travelled far, now,
And might well have arrived by motor-bike.
Where once you were a graceful Ocean Liner,
Before the advent of the Jumbo Jet,
Your manners then were infinitely finer:
An ageing tart, now. - I'll salute you yet!
BY
27.02.10
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Hi Dave and all...
On Sunday May 4, 1856 at about 3 AM, a steamboat tug towed the three-mast sailing ship THORNTON out of the Mersey River into the Irish Sea. The pilot and tug returned about 8:30 AM.
I'm researching the voyage and subsequent adventures of the THORNTON passengers - but I live in the States, so a quick trip to the Liverpool history source books is a tad difficult.
I'm running into a blank wall from here, so I find I must appeal to my British cousins.
Any help possible with the following questions would be most appreciated:
1 - any resources possible on which pilot and tug may have been involved given the information provided?
2 - any source for etchings/photographs of what a "steamboat" tug might have looked like in 1856?
3 - On May 3rd 1856, the journalists note that they were, "Moved out of Bramly Moor Docks and anchored in the River" while they awaited government and physician inspection. Where might such an anchorage have been? Out near the fort? alongside the docks? Any thoughts?
and finally -
4 - any sources on information about the inspection process? Location of the government buildings from which such inspectors might have been dispatched?
Sorry for the long post and multitude of questions - but I'm severely limited with knowing where else to go.
Regards -
Kevin
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Hi, Bud,
Sounds as though you might be writing an historical novel!
It seems probable that the ship would have anchored in the Mersey approximately opposite to Bramley Moore dock - i.e. in the vicinity of Egremont.
This would seem to be a natural move, particularly if required to wait for further official inspections. It would be the most convenient place; and there would be no point in going any further.
Sorry I can't help as to any name for tug or pilot.
It also seems probable that in 1856 the tug would have been a paddler. Somebody else might know the year when the first propeller-driven tug-boat was introduced.
Good luck!
BY
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Kevin
Dave's Topic is all about Liverpool Pilot boats and their masters and crew.Tug Boats are different from Pilots boats,Dave will no dought point you in the right direction which will help with your research.
Celia
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Yep - trolling through the prior posts in this section, I'd caught that there was a marked difference between the tug captains and the master pilots, but, as I noted, I'm kind of at a loss for where to go next - and hopefully ya'll won't say to Liverpool!
(wait - that came off wrong. It's not that I wouldn't LIKE to come to Liverpool = oh, drats! nevermind).
Would the tug have cast the THORNTON off on its own - or was there a pilot on board as well that returned with the tug? Would that be recorded anywhere?
And, what's the typical course out of the Mersey's mouth for the States? There was a Northeast wind, so I presume they headed west to pass just north of the Isle of Anglesey - along the Liverpool to Dublin lane until they passed the Isle, no?
Any thoughts?
-
Would the tug have cast the THORNTON off on its own - or was there a pilot on board as well that returned with the tug? Would that be recorded anywhere?
I cant really go of topic by talking about tug boats ;D but the tug boat had to have a pilot to steer the tug.As do all vessels,Tugs are attatched to vessel's by ropes/ and then guided out of channels till they get to the open sea.When the attached line is de-tached from the vessel.The pilot of the ship/vessel still has to steer the ship.I see this happening a lot when the bridge goes up the tug appears first then eventually ;D the cargo ship all i know about the thornton is that it carried passengers back and forth Liverpool to America. It looks like you query might go for some time.Would it be a good idea to start your own topic on the occupation interest board :-\
Celia P.S. I had a look through shipping list departures/arrivals Liverpool to America in the 19th century newspapers The Thornton is mentioned didn't find much else though if i do I will P.M you.
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Bud just found this website with some images of a steamboat tug
http://uk.ask.com/pictures?q=Steam+Tugs&page=1&o=0&l=dir&pstart=0&qsrc=24
Celia
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Some clarification of the various roles of shipmaster, pilot and tug-boat might help here.
By the laws of pilotage:- ' "pilot" means a person not belonging to a ship who has the conduct thereof and "pilotage" shall be construed accordingly.'
By the laws of towage:- ' the tug is the servant of the tow.'
Consequently the tug-boat takes its orders/directions/instructions from the person who has the conduct of the ship (i.e. from the pilot if the ship is under pilotage and from the shipmaster if the ship is not under pilotage).
It is a rare event for there to be a pilot on board a tug-boat. Tug-boat masters themselves are (in general terms) highly experienced in the areas in which they operate.
In well-run ships, the steering is done by a helmsman (sometimes called a quartermaster) who takes his orders directly from the person who "has the conduct" of the ship (i.e. either the pilot or the shipmaster - as the case may be - or alternatively, when the ship is in the open sea, from the officer of the watch.)
Best wishes,
BY
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Hi Dave,
Joseph Bennett.
Can you please confirm that the Cox of the Hoylake Lifeboat
(1809 to 1822) was previously a Liverpool Pilot up to 1809 ?
If so - did he have a son, also called Joseph Bennett ?
RickyC
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Hi Ricky,
The records show that Joseph Bennett was licenced in 1786 and left the Pilot Service in 1808 to become keeper of Hoylake Lighthouse. At the time of his departure he was a Master of the pilot cutter he was serving on.
The 2nd Joseph Bennett was licenced in 1823. It doesn't show whether he is the son of the former.
In 1854 he was attached to No 4 pilot cutter 'Auspicious' which was built in 1849 by Thos. Royden of Liverpool. She was 60'5" x 14'7" x 9'2" at 49.5grt.
He was the oldest journeyman pilot on board (out of 11) at 53 years of age, c1801.
He 'died in service' (DIS) in 1857, aged 56.
As previously indicated it should be possible to find his pilotage career record from the Pilot's Character Book at the MMM, Albert Dock, Liverpool, which may give a reason for his DIS.
Regards
Dave
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Ricky,
Have a look at www.old-liverpool.co.uk/Pilots where Joseph Bennett is listed as 2nd Master of No 6 sloop 'Friends Goodwill' in Feb 1808
Regards
Dave
-
Hi Dave,
Many thanks for your prompt reply.
In 1809, it was a 'condition of service' that the Hoylake Lighthouse Keeper was also Coxswain of the Hoylake Lifeboat.
So Joseph Bennett would have filled both positions until he retired as Coxswain in 1822.
At this point, the 'condition of service' was removed, thus allowing Joseph Bennett to continue as Lighthouse Keeper until his death in 1828.
Unfortunately nobody knows who took over as Coxswain after Joseph Bennett's retirement in 1822. Thus Hoylake Lifeboat Station's list of Coxswains remains blank for the period 1822 to 1840.
RickyC.
-
Hi again Dave,
In answer to your second reply :--
Liverpool Pilots in Service in February 1808.
No. 4 Happy Return - Peter Bennett - Master
No. 5 ISAAC - Thomas Bennett - Master
No. 6 Friends Goodwill - Joseph Bennett - Master
Seems a bit like the GOONS (LOL)
More Thanks,
RickyC.
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Hi Dave
Hope you don't mind me pointing out that your link should read :-
http://www.old-liverpool.co.uk/Pilots.html
Two names from my own tree in the February 1808 list - Thomas LESTER on No 6 (Friends Goodwill) and Richard EVANS on No 9 (Liver).
Regards
Gordon
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Hello Dave. Do you have any listings for Liverpool Pilot William Daniels, licensed 1817, retired 1856, names of Pilot boats he may have been on, family etc: There was also a John Daniels licensed 1819, would there be anything to indicate that they may have been brothers. Thankyou Moya
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Hi Moya
The only info I have concerns Wm Daniels. He was attached to No1 sloop "Liverpool" on 31/12/1854 as a journeyman pilot, aged 58. He was 10 years older than anybody else on board so enjoyed a long career. No1 was built by Wm Dickinson in Liverpool in 1834. She was 55'x15'11"x8' with a gross rgistered tonnage (grt) of 58 tons. She was eventually sold in 1856 to a fisherman from Hoylake. Wm retired that year and died in 1857.
There isn't any info to suggest they were brothers. The 1851 census will give you their birthplace and then it's parish records for baptism.
Regards
Dave
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Hi Moya
As you're no doubt already aware, the 1851 Census gives Liverpool-born pilot William DANIELS' age as 58, placing his birth year as 1792/1793.
In the 1841 Census Lancashire-born pilot John DANIELS' age is given as 40, placing his year of birth (given the rounding-down to the nearest 5 years) as anytime between 1796 and 1801.
The IGI has baptisms in Liverpool St Nicholas as follows - all children of John DANIEL and Ellen :-
1788 Elizabeth
1790 Sarah
1792 William
1795 Henry (mother Ellen GARRETT)
1800 John (mother Ellen GARRAD) (born 19 November 1799)
So the prospect of Liverpool pilots William & John DANIELS being brothers looks pretty good, the one nagging doubt being this baptism, also on the IGI :-
14 September 1800
Liverpool St Peter
John DANIELS
Father John DANIELS, mother Jane
Regards
Gordon
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Thanks Gordon & Dave. Your help is invaluable. Regards Moya
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Hi Dave
Youde (so presumably Tebay too) has the Daniels J (i) who was licensed in 1819 as died in service in 1853.
Do you by any chance have a record of the incident which took his life, or will this necessitate a trip to the MMM archives to look at the Pilots' Character Book (which I may do anyway)?
PS.Would love to know the identity of the Hoylake fisherman who bought the ex No1 sloop LIVERPOOL in 1856, if this information is available anywhere?
Regards
Gordon
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Hi Gordon,
Tebay has Daniels J as 'DIS - drowned falling from paddle box of s.s leaving Belfast'.
Read into that what you will. Why would anyone be on the paddle box! If it had been in the vicinity of a pilot station he could have been boarding or leaving a vessel, but Belfast??
I'm afraid it is a trip to the MMM because that's were Tebay got his info.
Don't know whether there is a record of Pilot cutter purchasers after service in Liverpool.
MMM??
Regards
Dave
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Hi, Chaps,
JS Rees confirms that the sloop Liverpool (1834) was sold in 1856 to become a fishing boat at Hoylake, but does not identify the buyer. He also publishes a photograph of her high and dry on Hoylake beach in about 1924 (when about 90 years old). She appears to have a rudder like a barn-door, in confirmation of the manoeuvrability for which the pilot-cutters were particularly designed. The photograph is provided by Pilot Nelson Drew (born 1894 - died 1980)
Hope this might help.
BY
-
Hi
I'm looking for information on "Perseverance" No 12 Pilot Boat re. George McAllister around 1870s -1932
thanks! :)
-
Hi,
There are 3 McAllister's in the list of Pilots.
1) G W McAllister (was it George William?) born 1851, licenced as a Pilot in 1870 and retired in 1917. In the 'Returns Relating to Pilots and Pilotage' for 1870 he is serving as an Apprentice Pilot attached to No 12 Pilot schooner "Perseverance", aged 19 and licenced to pilot vessels into Liverpool up to 250 tons. In the 1895 Returns he is a 1st Class Pilot, aged 44 and still attached to the "Perseverance" but she is now No 9. She was built in 1860 by T Harvey & Sons; 81'2"x18'x9'4";56grt. She became No 9 in 1885, withdrawn in 1896 and sold in 1898 for inter-island trade in the West Indies. In 1897 he is attached to Steam Pilot Boat No1 "Francis Henderson".
2) J McAllister born 1865, licenced in 1888, retired and died 1920.
3) Wm George McAllister, DOB 2/2/1882, date of admission into Pilot Service 13/9/1900 having spent 1 year 8 months sea service prior to this date. He joined Steam Pilot Boat No 4 "David Fernie" first but other records show that he also served most of his 'time' on No 3 "Queen Victoria". He was licenced as a 3rd Class Pilot on 1st June 1908. He was a very similar age to my own grandfather who joined the Service, amazingly enough, on the same date, namely 13/9/1900 along with a further 9 other candidates, although in my grandfather's case he didn't qualify until exactly a year later 1/6/1909.
A full history of their Pilotage careers can be found in the Pilot's Character Book at the Merseyside Maritime Museum, Albert Dock, Liverpool.
Hope this answers your question.
Regards
Dave
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Thanks Dave!
I think the first is the George I'm looking for, he was my Great Great Grandfather. The details I have seem to tally with your info, I did wonder if the last one could have been his son but the birth date is out by a bit - I have a George William but born 1885 to George & Isabella McAllister in Liverpool.
Pity I didn't know about the book at the Museum as I was there only on Saturday trying to find pictures of the 'Perseverance'. I'll have a look for the others you've mentioned now :).
Thanks again, your help is much appreciated
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Hi Dave
Jean McGurn posted her William JONES on Celia's thread back in April this year, she and I (Jean, that is) subsequently corresponding in some depth about him on another list to which we both subscribed at the time.
If I'm not mistaken, I identified her man in Youde as :-
JONES W (xi)
Born 1840 [Portmadoc]
Licensed 1861
Died 1882
I promised Jean I'd try to look him up in the Pilot's Character Book next time I was in the vicinity of Albert Dock, but with so much going on in Liverpool this year (and invariably having visitors in tow each time I've been there) I haven't as yet been able to oblige.
Still have it in my notebook as a "to do", so would appreciate it if you'd let me know if you propose to have a look in the PCB yourself, so I can cross it off my list?
Regards
Gordon
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Hi Dave
Jean McGurn posted her William JONES on Celia's thread back in April this year, she and I (Jean, that is) subsequently corresponding in some depth about him on another list to which we both subscribed at the time.
If I'm not mistaken, I identified her man in Youde as :-
JONES W (xi)
Born 1840 [Portmadoc]
Licensed 1861
Died 1882
I promised Jean I'd try to look him up in the Pilot's Character Book next time I was in the vicinity of Albert Dock, but with so much going on in Liverpool this year (and invariably having visitors in tow each time I've been there) I haven't as yet been able to oblige.
Still have it in my notebook as a "to do", so would appreciate it if you'd let me know if you propose to have a look in the PCB yourself, so I can cross it off my list?
Regards
Gordon
cc
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Hello,
Is there a way to find out more about captain Henry james evans when he was working for white star lines? Or about his children that moved to america? William Worrall Evans was his his name and I believe one of his sisters name was Minnie, which had a daughter named Sonia. His younger sister named Doris was married to Tommie Tomlinson that was ex sec for Cunard?
Did the captain Henry james evans really pilot Titanic and disembark before its maiden voyage? Wow!
Cheers,
vansager
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Hello vansager
The three children of Liverpool Pilot Henry James EVANS (b1864 Liverpool) are my 3rd cousins once removed.
William Worrall EVANS (b1900 CHS Egremont) married Hildred Elsie CHAPMAN nee ALLEN (b1895 Stafford, Kansas) on 18 September 1930 in Salinas, Monterey, California. He died in Salt Lake City on 5 October 1994, aged 94, and is buried in the Place of Chimes, Hayward, Almeda, California.
Minnie Bloomer EVANS (b1892 CHS Liscard) married William John Munro ANKERS (b1894 Liverpool) in 1922 and is believed to have had a daughter Doris Sonia (b1924).
William's father William Thomas ANKERS (b1865 Liverpool) was also a Liverpool Pilot, as was his uncle Albert Edward ANKERS (b1874 Liverpool) - one of many pilots & crew lost when the pilot boat ALFRED H READ struck a mine in Liverpool Bay on 28 December 1917.
Doris Hutton EVANS (b1895 CHS Egremont) is believed to have married John Curwen TOMLINSON (b1895 Seaforth) on 22 August 1923 in Christ Church, Waterloo and to have had twins born in 1925.
As far as I'm aware Henry James EVANS was never employed directly by White Star but was a Liverpool Pilot appropriated to that company - Dave will no doubt be able to explain the significance of this better than I can.
I've no knowledge of Henry James ever having piloted the TITANIC himself, the family rumour being that he was simply an 'unofficial guest' on board the vessel when it left Southampton on its maiden voyage, disembarking when it called at Queenstown.
Hope this helps a little.
Gordon
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Hello Gordon,
That information was very helpful. Thank you.
I have some family history that you might be interested in about William W. regarding his life in the US. Written by his daughter. (typed)
but i tried and it is too bag . i will have to re-scan latter today and send it along.
Cheers,
VanSager
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Hello VanSager
Glad to hear that the information in my post was of some use.
I most certainly would be interested in any information you might have concerning William Worrall's life in the US - particularly anything written by a daughter of his of whom I was hitherto unaware.
Should it be of any interest to you I'm in touch with a step-grandaughter of William Worrall's in Salt Lake City who has the fondest memories of him?
Best regards
Gordon
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Hi VanSager,
The only info I have for HJE c1864 was posted here, in reply to Ryan, on 13/09/09.
Re GB's request:
Liverpool Pilots were self-employed from the day they received their first licence, the legal view being that the Owner, Master or Agent hired the services of a Pilot for a particular service to their vessel. Once that service was finished they made themselves available for their next duty, on a rotation list with other Pilots, who had also completed a service on other vessels. Therefore their services were retained by a succession of O/M/Agents and not the Pilotage Authority. Hence self-employment.
However, their compulsory earnings were collected by the Pilotage Authority as a percentage of pilotage dues, for the service completed, which was based on the draft and size of the vessel and the particular service, be it inward, outward or moving across the river from dock to dock etc. These earnings were distributed on a 'share' basis. A 1st class Pilot rec'd 1 share of earnings, a 2nd class Pilot 5/6 of a share and a 3rd class Pilot 2/3 share.
With the advent of steam driven vessels in the latter part of the 19th century, British Shipowners decided that they would prefer a more efficient service for their own ships by retaining the services of a named Pilot (or 2 /3). The Shipowner applied to the general body of Pilots for applicants for an Appropriated position with their Company. Upon selection each Pilot would be expected to pilot vessels of that Company where necessary, but if there weren't any of that Company's ships in the offing, they returned to the 'list' to take their 'turn' with other 'rota' pilots. Therefore they were never employed by a Shipping Company, only retained for their services. Therefore HJE would have only been retained by White Star Line and not employed by them.
Pilots, once licenced, almost never relinquished their licence, until retirement or death, so one can rule out Pilots leaving the confines of the Liverpool Pilot Service for employment elsewhere in the marine industry.
For this 'appropriated service' the Shipowner paid a retainer, which was minimal. In my father's case he was appropriated to Clan Line Steamers in 1953 for which he was paid the princely sum of £50pa. (Did Shipowners ever 'splash the cash'? I think not!) So one could argue that the Shipowner received this exclusive service 'on the cheap'. Basically that is correct, but from the Pilot's point of view, there was more to it than that. He consistently piloted superior vessels, became familiar with them and their crew and knew generally where and, more importantly, when he would be working. In addition there was a fee for manoeuvering vessels within the dock system, which was not part of compulsory pilotage earnings and was therefore collected by the individual. This could be considerable, as the Shipowner well knew, so he did get this additional, exclusive service for next to nothing.
Compulsory pilotage extended from the outer limits of the Pilotage Area to the lock. The lock being the entrance to the dock system, where a vessel would be raised (or lowered, if leaving) to the level of water within the system (or river). Pilotage from the lock to the berth was on a voluntary basis but in practice, vessels of reasonable size always retained the services of a Pilot.
The outer limits of the Liverpool Pilotage Area (20th century) were defined by an imaginary line being drawn from the north coast of Anglesey through Middle Mouse Island to the Calf of Man, along the east coast of the Isle of Man to Point of Air and thence to St Bees Head in Cumbria.
With reference to HJE's 'trip' to Southampton, I can only assume that he went at the behest of White Star Line, maybe to familiarise himself with the handling characteristics of the 'Titanic', in case she ever came to Liverpool. Because of the timescale prior to leaving Belfast, on her maiden voyage, a trip to Liverpool had been cancelled. I doubt he would have taken himself 'off share' just for the thrill of it and paying his own way as well. Pilot's were very pragmatic. Or another thought, maybe he had already travelled to Belfast to join the 'Titanic', for her impending call at Liverpool, when he would have been expected to commence his pilotage services as the vessel passed the outer limits, namely the Calf of Man. Maybe the call at Liverpool was cancelled after the vessel left Belfast so it was too late for him to disembark and so ended up in Southampton. It's all conjecture but the facts are somewhere! I favour the latter, but wonder why he travelled on to Cherbourg and Queenstown. Perhaps he was enjoying his enforced break from Liverpool. Stranger incidents have happened to Liverpool Pilots in my lifetime never mind the last 2 1/2 centuries!
Regards to All
Dave
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Hello Dave,
All I can say in my west coast american-ease is WOW! What a grand vocation for so many but so few in the UK. I had no concept of how important the ocean going vessel (and their evolution) was to England until I checked out this website. How wonderful to have been a captain of one these behemoths as they sailed around the world. I live in the Bay area in Northern California, and I go to the ocean at least once a week by car, takes 45 minutes. I am near the water or going over the bay bridge many times each week, and have worked with longshoremen but never did it occur to me to what extent, and how important the ship has been to history. With regard to HJM's trip to Southhampton and on to Queenstown, is there any way to prove that he was an unofficial guest in the wheel house, snagging a ride??? Since he is not listed in any of the list for dis-embarking. I guess it would be like a pilot catching a ride on the airlines he works for back to the hub so to speak.?
Cheers,
this is fascinating.
vansager
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Hi,
I would have thought 'zero chance' of finding HJE's attendance on the 'Titanic'.
He would not have been 'signed on' as a member of the crew nor recorded on any passenger list, only recorded in the ship's log book as embarking in Belfast and disembarking in Queenstown. As he didn't perform an act of pilotage to/from Liverpool there would not be any further reference to him.
So you will have to be satisfied that there is a distinct possibility that he did sail on the Titanic from Belfast to Queenstown, via Southampton and Cherbourg, if Evans family folklore is to be believed, but factual evidence is not available.
Family folklore, from my own research, can be extremely helpful, and factual. My father used to talk about a family connection with the Isle of Purbeck and Poole, Dorset, England but wasn't sure why? The only facts I had were from the 1841 census in Liverpool where I found my GGGrandfather, George Augustus Cockram c1800 living at Brunswick Place, Toxteth Park, Liverpool with his wife, 4 children and that he was a Master Mariner. After a great deal of time and effort I eventually tracked him down on a Merchant Navy Register at the National Archives, Kew, England which led me on to references to voyages he made from 1835 to 1840 and his name recorded as Master of 2 vessels, 'Rapid' and 'Blackaller' in Lloyds List. I now have the references to peruse crew agreements for both those vessels, but need to visit Kew again.
The important point being that the Register gave me his birthplace as Wareham, Dorset in the Isle of Purbeck. He married Sarah Williams in Poole in 1827. He arrived in Liverpool with his family between 1833 and 1835 as my GGrandfather was born in Poole in December 1832 and was christened in West Derby, Liverpool in November 1835 thereby confirming family folklore, of the Dorset connection.
Dave
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Hi, Vansager!
You mention the importance of the ocean going vessel to England. In Liverpool its importance has far surpassed anything else, as HJ Evans would no doubt have confirmed.
The following effort attempts to paint a picture of the scene off Point Lynas (i.e. at Liverpool's gatehouse for ships entering from the south and west) on a summer evening in the early 1960s.
TO SERVE THE WORLD ON A SUMMER EVENING
Come, evening sunlight, warmth of womb,
Flood into my sitting room.
Flood across the western sea
And stir a Pilot's memory.
Take me back to Lynas Point
(My trencher fill, my glass anoint)
And let me tell thee of the scene
On many a balmy summer e'en,
When liners, as their trade they plied
Came handsomely and on the tide
For Liverpool from lands enchanted;
And how men took it all for granted.
See you first the grand Cunard
With New York mail-flag at her yard:
The CPR next, from Quebec,
The icy-scheduled, foggy trek.
A Clan Line steamer from Ceylon,
An Ellerman from Lebanon,
A BP tanker from Iran,
And here's Blue Funnel, from Japan.
From Panama comes NZS,
Home from Auckland, wool-express,
And in her wake Shaw Savill who is,
Home from Sydney, via Suez.
An Anchor Liner from Bombay,
A Houlder boat from Uruguay,
Blue Star with Argentinian cargo,
And PSN from Santiago.
An Elder Dempster from Accra,
A Harrison from Zanzibar,
A Brocklebank with tea, Madras:
Intrepid Booth Line, from Manaus.
The sun it will be setting, soon -
Ah, here comes Bibby, from Rangoon.
Each takes her pilot from the Cutter,
A routine matter, bread and butter.
What panorama was afforded!
... All in the daily log recorded.
So, darling daughters at my knee,
It was a wondrous life,
D'you see?
As to roots in the Liverpool Pilot Service, I bend the knee to my good friend Davecigar and salute his long ancestry without question. My own father served as Pilot retained (as Dave explains) by Anchor Line and was a contemporary (and former school-chum at HMS Conway) with Dave's father. To grow up in a Pilot's household was a magical experience. To want to do anything other than become a Pilot was unthinkable.
Best wishes
BY
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Hello VanSager
Amongst the many photographs in an album kept by my schoolmistress maiden grand-aunt Margaret EVANS (1867-1933) are two captioned 'Drying raisins in California', which I can only assume would have been sent to her by William Worrall EVANS - her 2nd cousin once removed.
Can send as attachments if you'd care to let me have your e-mail address in a personal message? (Click on my user-name 'glenburn' to do this).
Best regards
Gordon
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The Scene in the Mersey for most of the Twentieth Century until about 1975 looked something like this, at Tide Time.
TIDE TIME.
Small Dutch Schuyt and a Spanish fruit-ship,
British coastal tanker and a Baltic jeep,
One fine morning, waiting for the flood-tide,
Lying at the anchorage in Garston Deep.
City-boat, Clan-boat, NYK Japan boat,
Lying all together in a line within the Sloyne,
One fine morning, waiting for the flood-tide,
Waiting for the half-tide when the tug-boats join.
Birkenhead levels and the Mersey River revels:
All begins to happen in the daily jamboree.
Out slides Bibby Line, Harrison and Anchor Line,
Following Blue Funnel as they clear away for sea.
Downstream, brownstream, in the mighty Townstream,
A sugar-boat is swinging for the berth at Tate & Lyle:
Behind her (remind her), here comes the CPR boat,
Racing for the Landing Stage, direct from Belle Isle.
Further down at Bootle, in and out they tootle,
From Panama Canal and the entire Pacific Rim.
Could any sight be finer than a deeply-laden liner,
Trading to the tropics in a profitable trim?
Inward ships are hailing, outward ships are sailing:
A fleet within close quarters needs precision in its flow.
Upstream, inward bound, here comes more for Eastham,
Straight from Mississippi and the Gulf of Mexico.
All the outward traffic makes a moving picture graphic,
Racing down the Channel working engines up to pace.
Thirty different funnels over sixty different gunwhales:
Never could a sailor see a more exciting race!
Thundering, lumbering, lumbering and wondering,
The supertank for Tranmere will simply carry on.
Though steerable, unstoppable, her anchors quite undroppable,
The key to her command is in the timing of her run.
Tide-time's over, silent mover,
Power insurmountable now quickly ebbs away.
What on Earth is time apart from mankind's measure?
Tide-time happens, twice each day.
BY
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Hi BY
Enjoyed the prose (all your own work?) which took me back many years to my days with H M Customs & Excise on Liverpool Docks (1956-1972) - we skulking behind pillars on the quayside whilst you guys obligingly guided 'prey' into our waiting web. :-)
Recognised all of the names you mentioned, but there were of course many, many more including Port Line, Ben Line, Strick Line, Lamport & Holt, MacAndrews, Safmarine, Palm Line, Union Castle, Lykes Line, United States Line, Head Line, Henderson, Larrinaga SS, P & O, Royal Mail, British India, Furness, Booker Line, Federal SS, Court Line, Donaldson, Holland-America (-dyk boats), Bank Line, Guinea Gulf Line (John Holt), Moss Hutchison, India SS, Nigerian National & Scindia (Jala-boats).
Mind-boggling to think just how many there were, isn't it, compared with the mere handful about nowadays ?
Head Line (Ulster SS Co) had a reputation for docking their vessels (invariably from the North American/Canadian Lakes) in the most attrocious weather conditions, when all others remained at anchor to await the next tide, and I can remember several occasions when their ships sustained damage in the process. Have always wondered whether the Pilot was allowed any say in this, or would his considered opinion have simply been over-ruled by the ship's owners or master?
Regards
Gordon
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Hi, GB!
I plead guilty.
All my own work.
As to Summer Evening, I recited it once at a lunch of the Master Mariners' Club -following which a member complained that I had not mentioned Manchester Liners. The splendid Canon Bob Evans (then aged 83) leapt to his feet and said "And Manchester Liners from Montreal, coming home with bugger all!"
As to whether or not the pilot might have any say in whether or not the ship should dock in all the circumstances, of course he does: that is what he is paid to do. It is his function to take the conduct of the ship (nothing more, nothing less) . This calls upon him to say "No" sometimes. The shipmaster who ignores a pilot's advice (and carries on, against a pilot's advice) leaves himself answerable to his owners and his insurers, to say nothing of any third party. Very few deep-sea shipmasters are willing to take the risk. Of course, the Master might be the first to say "No". The upshot is that before any deep-sea ship moves in pilotage waters there is invariably agreement between pilot and shipmaster that she should do so.
Damage was often done when docking in bad weather. It was part of the process of keeping shipping moving. Teams of men would attend at the lockside, equipped with portable fenders, to prevent damage as far as poosible. Crates of fenders were maintained at the locksides, painted in company colours. (No doubt you will have seen them.) Head Line retained their own Pilot (John Snowball) until the company ceased trading. They would not have done so unless they had every confidence in him and accepted any damage done as a price to be paid in their own commercial interests. All who knew him had confidence in him.
v best
BY
ps 28.07.10
A further factor in the question of whether a ship should dock in bad weather is that any harbour authority has the power to close its port (i.e. prohibit entry) to any ship. The power needs to be exercised properly and is rarely exercised: but it is exercised sometimes. It clearly was not exercised in any of the Head Line cases which you mention.
The commercial pressures upon any ship to dock on schedule are great. Shipowners, shippers (i.e. the owners of the cargo) and harbour authorities all wish to see things kept moving as a matter of profit. On the other hand, none of those three parties has the conduct of the ship. The conduct of any ship is with her Master, who remains free to accept or ignore a pilot's advice, even in circumstances where (as at Liverpool and most large ports) pilotage is compulsory. As mentioned above, the Master of a deep-sea ship will very rarely over-ride his pilot, if only on the principal that you don't keep a dog and bark yourself. Any shipmaster (anywhere in the world) is heavily obliged to heed the best local advice available, as given to him by his pilot. There is nobody else who is qualified to give pilotage advice. The pilot gives his advice in the form of helm orders, engine orders and all other aspects of navigation; and thus has the conduct of the ship.
In those circumstances, the first person to be looked to for a decision as to whether or not a ship should dock in bad weather is invariably the pilot.
As to law, it was settled in the House of Lords as recently as 1988 that a pilot is an independent professional who navigates as a principal: and not as the servant of any harbour authority. By the provisions of successive Acts of Parliament, the pilot is the servant of the ship, even though he is not a member of the crew. In a later case in 1993 (confirming the 1988 decision, but under a new Act of Parliament) it was observed that because the pilot is the servant of the ship he cannot at the same time be the servant of any harbour authority, on the Biblical principal that no man can serve two masters (St Mathew Chapter 6, verse 24).
Hope this might clarify things a bit.
Best
BY
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There was a Leonard Crasswell who was Harbour Master in Liverpool during the 1950s and 60s. He had been a Merchant Sea Captain before he became Harbour Master. His family had strong links with South Shields. If you haven't located your Leonard yet then it is worth checking out to see if he is the one.
Lyn
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hello all,,looking for any info on william mylchreest,who is listed as a liverpool pilot on the 1891,1901,and also 1911 census,,,,,,,,any info much appreciated.
thanks julie
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Hi Julie,
Wm Charles Mylchreest was born in 1866, licenced as a Pilot in 1891 and died in 1918 whilst still working. He was appropriated to Manchester Liners.
In 'Returns Relating to Pilots and Pilotage' in 1895 he is attached to No 9 pilot schooner "Perseverance", aged 29, and holds a 1st Class licence enabling him to pilot any sized ship into Liverpool. In 1897 and 1900 he is attached to No 2 Steam Pilot Boat "Leonard Spear".
There is another Mylchreest listed, James Harold who was born in 1895, licenced in 1919, retired in 1960 and died in 1895. Any relation? as it's such an unusual surname.
I was at school in the 1950's with Michael Mylchreest, son of James Harold, although he did not pursue a career at sea.
The Pilot Character Book at the MMM will give you more information on their pilotage careers.
Hope this ties up a few loose ends
Regards
Dave
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hi dave,thank you so much,for all that info....brilliant!
i have only just started on the mylchreest's,(they are on my husbands side).
but i do know james harold was the son of william,so anything you can remember about the family,would be good to hear.
thanks again,,,,puts a lot of meat on the bones!
julie
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Hi Dave,
I am looking for information on a David Thomas, and would be grateful if you could look him up. He was born in about 1849, and in 1881 was living in 70 Lamb Street, Liverpool. His middle name was possibly Lloyd (and he was born in Wales!) According to his daughter's marriage certificate he was a Pilot (in the 1881 census he is listed as a Mariner). Any information would be brilliant. I look forward to hearing from you. Best regards, Fran
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Hi Fran,
Sorry to disappoint you but I can't find any record of David Thomas.
There are 12 Thomas's in all but none fit your criteria, even birth dates.
Regards
Dave
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Hi Dave - thanks anyway - appreciate you going to the trouble, and getting back to me so quickly!
Best regards
Fran
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Dave,
How generous, to offer this assistance to those searching, as I am, for details of service in the pilotage service on Merseyside.
In my case, I have lost access to my family records and am trying to find details of my father's service post - WWII. His name was Crawford William SCOTT (known as "Bill"), and he was born on 4th December 1921. In 1940 he was a 'Merchant Navy Cadet" at, I think, HMS Conway, though I have yet to have that confirmed.
Any assistance with obtaining details of service would be much appreciated.
Yours aye,
Robert Scott
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Hi Robert,
No record of Crawford Wm Scott in the Liverpool Pilotage Service.
If he was a cadet on HMS Conway, he would have attended between the ages of 14/16, say 1935/37.
Sorry can't be of more assistance
Regards
Dave
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Hi, David,
Many thanks for checking for me. It is possible that I have been misinformed. I will check again.
Yous aye,
Robert
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Just found this very useful thread, mere weeks after managing a quick hour at the Liverpool Maritime Museum Archive on a recent visit to the UK.
I was able to locate the character book entry for an ancestor, Liverpool pilot John Hughes (a), revealing what looks like a not uncommon checquered history! I'm also tempted to think that John Hughes (VI) may have been his father.
A couple of basic questions occur to me, and my apologies in advance if I've missed answers to these:
1. Where does one find a good general history/reference for the pilot service?
2. Is therre an on-line accessible source which gives the names and numbers of the pilot boats?
And, more specifically,
3. What would be the standard age for superannuation as a pilot? 70? Seems quite ol.
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1. Where does one find a good general history/reference for the pilot service?
"Beyond the Bar, A Light History of the Liverpool Pilot Service" by Barrie Youde. GBP 12.95
ISBN 0 904825 34 5. Published by Laver publishing PO Box 7 Liverpool L19 9EN
http://www.laverpublishing.com (a very old fashioned site but all the info is in there)
List all pilots known to have served in the Service up to 2003. It also lists all the cutters and has a full description of the apprenticeship training of those men. It also has quite a few photographs of people and vessels and a few good (and bad) old tales.
Hope that helps.
-
As to superannuation, by the terms of Bye-Laws made under the Pilotage Act of 1913 (repealed in 1988), retirement was compulsory for pilots at the age of 65.
Bye-Law 74 provided that "A Pilot shall retire from the Pilotage Service on attaining the age of 65 years, and upon a Pilot attaining such age he shall forthwith deliver up his licence to the Superintendent."
Before 1913, it appears that there was no fixed retirement age.
Since 1988, a licence has been re-named an "authorisation" and there is, once again, no fixed age upon which a pilot is obliged to surrender his authorisation.
Hope this helps,
Best,
BY
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Hi Dave
Wondered if you might have easy access to details of the personnel attached to No 5 pilot boat in September 1861?
I have a first cousin 3 times removed Henry EVANS (b1836 Liscard), whose occupation was given in the 1861 Census as Liverpool Pilot, as was also that of his older brother William EVANS (b1834 Liscard).
His obituary in the Liverpool Mercury of 10 September 1861 reads :-
'EVANS - Sept 4, aged 24, Mr Henry EVANS jun, Wellington Road, Egremont, and of No 5 Pilot Boat'.
Since he doesn't feature in the list of Liverpool Pilots in Barrie YOUDES' book 'Beyond the Bar' was he perhaps merely an apprentice at the time of his death?
Best regards
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Hi, GB,
Your suggestion seems highly probable.
As previously discussed, my own List of Licensed Pilots is taken mainly from John Tebay's meticulous (and earlier) List, with some additional research.
In compiling records a line has to be drawn somewhere. At the time of my own research I had access to apprenticeship records from about 1880: but decided to confine the List to those who had had the good fortune to make the grade to qualification/ grant of licence.
To reach the age of 24 and still to be an apprentice (as you suggest might have been the fate of your ancestor Henry Evans) was commonplace, as my own father and Dave's father would confirm only too readily.
A visit to the Maritime Museum today unearthed the sad confirmation that the vast majority of Pilot-Boat log-books have been destroyed. A very small selection has been preserved.
Best
BY
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Hi Dave,
Many thanks for your kind look-ups offer. I would be very grateful if you could find any information on John Lord, born c1873, Liverpool. He is listed as a Pilot on both the 1901 and 1911 censuses. In the 1911 census he is listed together with eight other pilots in the Exchange sub-district of Liverpool so I assume he was working at the time of the census.
Kind Regards
-
John LORD is listed in Barrie Youde's book 'Beyond the Bar' as licensed in 1899, died 1915.
Son Cyril John LORD (b1906 Liscard) looks to have also been a Liverpool Pilot - licensed in 1933, retired 1966, died 1981?
So a near-contemporary of both Barrie and Dave Cigar?
-
Hi
I have a photograph of my great grandmother outside a cottage with her cousin who was a Liverpool Pilot.
I haven't a clue which cousin he is just yet !!
Were any of them photographed ? If there was a collection of them then it might be worth a visit from SW England to Liverpool.
I hope that someone can answer my question, even if it sounds stupid !!!!! ;D
Nainmaddie
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For sure, Dave and I remember Cyril Lord very well. He was a tall and elegant gent, and one of the last pilots (if not the last) to wear a bowler hat.
He was slightly older than my own father. When I was an apprentice and keen to learn as much as I could about everybody in the Service, I asked my Dad, "Tell me about Cyril Lord?"
"Ah, yes," said my Dad, "Dear old Cyril. When he was a Senior Apprentice in the early 1930s, he was Second Master of Number 4 Pilot Boat (the David Fernie), which was then so old that she no longer kept station but was engaged on permanent tender-duty. It was the practice that the Senior Apprentice of the Service would be given that appointment. The Senior Master was [of course a Senior Pilot, whose name escapes me now - BY] and he used to refer to the tall and elegant Cyril (at least thirty years his junior) as 'Mister High and Bloody Mighty!'".
I'm sure that Dave would agree that he was a perfect gentleman and I never did hear anybody say an unkind word about him.
Happy days. Very best,
BY
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Hi, Nainmaddie,
The answer to your question is, yes, many were photographed.
I make no promises, but if you could provide the name of your great-grandmother's cousin and the approximate date of the photograph, I could possibly help.
Best,
BY
-
Many thanks Glenburn and BY for your replies. I had heard of a Cyril but I didn't realise he was John's son.
Kind Regards.
-
Milord - Good Morning!
As a matter of accuracy, I have no knowledge that Cyril Lord was the son of John Lord - apart from the information given in this forum.
v best,
BY
-
Many thanks Glenburn and BY for your replies. I had heard of a Cyril but I didn't realise he was John's son.
Kind Regards.
Hi Malcolm
You'll know from the 1901 Census that Liverpool Pilot John LORD was living at 1 Whitefield Terrace, Everton, with his widowed, Manx-born mother Jane and four siblings?
In the 1881 Census the family is living at the same address, head of household being Manx-born sailmaker Henry LORD.
Search.labs http://url.ie/7ww2 has the marriage of a John LORD and Sarah Jane BATHIE on 21 July 1901 in Walton St Mary, groom's father being given as Henry LORD.
Cheshire BMD http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/ has the birth of a Cyril John LORD in 1906 in Wallasey.
In 1911 a Walton-born Jennie LORD is living at 10 Gerard Road, Wallasey, with a four year-old son son Cyril John LORD and sibling Florence BATHIE, Jennie signing the schedule 'for J Lord'.
Not absolutely conclusive, of course, but the above 'circumstantial' evidence is almost overwhelming?
A copy of Cyril's birth certificate should prove the matter beyond doubt, the GRO reference being :-
1906 SeptQ
Birkenhead 6a/567
LORD, Cyril John
Certificates can be purchased on-line for £9-25 at :- http://url.ie/7ww7/m
Best wishes
-
Morning BY
Many thanks for your reply. I will now have to go and search the attic. ( Threw all FH papers in boxes in a hurry when decorators changed plans ).
As for the surname, I might need some help from the Welsh board. It will be I suspect either Roberts or Owen (s ). It might turn out to be Jones !!!! ;D
I will dig out the photo and see if I can manage to scan it and put it up here. That would be a miracle!!
Many thanks for your reply
Nainmaddie
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Hi Glenburn and BY,
Once again, thanks for your help. It certainly looks like all one family. The Gerard Road address is particularly useful. I was hoping the 1911 census would have given me John's address but he was at work!
You've given me some good leads to follow up.
Kind Regards,
Malcolm
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Dear Nainmaddie,
There have been at least 27 Owens, 36 Robertses and 76 Joneses who have held Licences as Liverpool Pilots.
Even allowing for the fact that (at a guess) half of that number were deceased by the time photography became available in the second half of the 19th century, the possibilities as to the identity of your distant ancestor as a Pilot still remain high!
When you have identified a name, dates to the nearest decade would be helpful.
Good luck!
BY
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Hi BY
Thanks for the great news !!!
I am guessing that she was about 60 making his dates approx 1900-1910.
Will update you later when I have found the photo and done some more research as to who he could be !!
Many thanks
Nainmaddie
-
Have just received and devoured Barrie Youde's charming history.
Do any experts (dave? BY?) have any more detail about the ownership/mastership of boat 12 Perseverance?
-
Hi, imd!
Am pleased that you enjoyed Beyond The Bar; and many thanks for your kind comment.
Perseverance is mentioned in some detail in JS Rees's History of the Liverpool Pilotage Service (1949), including log extracts from two cruises during the summer of 1864.
Sadly there is no indication as to who might have been her Master. As to ownership, the probability (if not the certainty?) is that she would have been owned by a syndicate; and it is recorded that her cost price, constructed and equipped in 1842, was £2,121.00.
Merseyside Maritime Museum might be able to help further.
v. best,
BY
ps
On reading a little further into Rees, it becomes clear that Perseverance, when newly built, was owned by a syndicate of 46 pilots. As Rees puts it, "In all 46 pilots were allotted shares, the fact that the Act of 1823 (shares in ships) limited the shareholders in a vessel to 32, being quite overlooked, furthermore, the Act required the names of the shareholders to be endorsed on the back of the ship's certificate of registry."
pps
On reading yet further, there were two pilot-boats named Perseverance. Each one was Number 12.
The first was a cutter, built in 1842 by Thomas Royden at Liverpool and replaced in 1860. This is the boat referred to as being owned by a syndicate of 46 pilots.
The second was a schooner (and much larger) built in 1860 by Thomas Harvey and Sons of Ipswich. Almost certainly, she also would have been owned from construction by a syndicate of pilots. She was one of the fleet purchased in 1883 from the pilot-syndicates by the Mersey Docks & Harbour Board. (1883 was also the year in which the new Pilot Office at Canning Pier Head was built.) In 1885, this second Perseverance was re-numbered as Number 9. She survived in the Pilot Service until 1898, by which time the first four steam-driven pilot-cutters had been introduced. She was then "sailed to the West Indies to trade between the Islands", according to JS Rees.
Rees's log-extracts for 1864 clearly refer to the later Perseverance rather than the earlier boat "replaced in 1860". Am not sure which Perseverance you refer to, but it has been a pleasure to do the train-spotting! Many thanks!
BY
-
Hello
If you are still willing to look up Liverpool pilots...I am researching Charles Ogilvy (abt 1832-1890), who I believe worked for the pilot service. He was also an artist and painted several pictures of Pilot schooner #6, Pioneer, so I have wondered if he served on her. Any info you can give me would be much appreciated.
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Hi Lily,
Definitely NOT on the list of Liverpool Pilots.
I googled his name (artist+charles ogilvy) and came up with a few sites.
www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/.../artsea/.../1860.../queen.aspx was the best and described him as a Marine Artist in 1868.
I suggest you pursue this line.
Happy researching
Dave
-
Thanks Barrie for the update on Perseverance.
My great-great-uncle, John Hughes (x) joined, presumably the 'new', Perseverance as an apprentice pilot in 1860 at the ripe age of 25, and served on it for most of his career, becoming shoremaster about the time the boat was bought by the board. Unfortunately fell in to some disrepute a little later and eventually finished his career on one of the steamers, retiring in 1906. All this time he lived at New Brighton.
Presumably ownership information will be found in the Liverpool Register of Shipping archives held by the Merseyside Maritime Museum.
At some stage it will be interesting to see the pattern of ownership and in particular if the Hughes family had shares in either of the Perseverances and whether or not the other owners were from New Brighton/Birkenhead.
Cheers
Ian
-
Hi, Ian,
Many thanks. It is always good to see flesh put on the bones of anything.
The career of John Hughes (x) cannot have been wholly disreputable if he continued to hold a licence to the age of 71!
Best wishes,
BY
-
Hi Dave
Thanks for your kind offer to look up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots. My ggggrandfather apparently worked as a river pilot in the Liverpool area. I wonder if I could impose on you to look him up: John Alfred Martin - born 1828, died in 1856.
Thanks
fjaney
-
Fjaney,
Bit of a mystery!
There are 4 John Martins in 'Tebay' (List of Pilots since 1766) but none of them fit the criteria regarding the dates that you have supplied.
However in Returns Relating to Pilots and Pilotage for 1854 there is a John A Martin, age 27, who is listed as a Journeyman Pilot restricted to piloting 'vessels drawing not more then 14 1/2 feet of water'. He seems to tie in perfectly with your dates.
He was attached to No 11 Pilot Cutter "Mersey" which was built in 1847 by Thos Royden. She was 55'7"x14'6" beam, 8'7" draft and 47grt (gross registered tons).
I can only assume that his name was inadvertently omitted from 'Tebay' but recorded in the Pilot Character Book at the MMMuseum, Albert Dock, Liverpool. Whether the staff at MMM will do a 'look up' for you, I'm not sure, but email may bring a result.
Regards
Dave
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Hi Davidcigar, My Father used to mention that he had a cousin who was a Mersey River Pilot, but during my researches i have not found any evidence to support this. the cousins name Was JACK MALCOLM.
During the 1990s there was an article in the Daily Telegraph, which was a profile of a Jack Malcolm who worked as a Mersey pilot, it also mentioned that he was following in his Fathers footsteps. UN- fortunately the paper was mislaid and attempts to get a copy failed.
I would be grateful if you could look this up, and establish if the fiction is actually fact.
Thank you in anticipation. Have a good New Year
Regards, Malc
-
Hi Malc,
I think the article you are referring to was " A day in the life of" on the back page of the Telegraph magazine. The pilot was Andrew T Malcolm, a good friend and colleague of mine. I can assure you that his father was not a Liverpool Pilot.
There isn't another Malcolm in the List of Pilots from 1766.
So, fiction I'm afraid and a happy and healthy New Year to you too.
Dave
-
Hi Davecigar
Thanks for looking up my relative - John Alfred Martin. I'll give the Merseyside Maritime Museum a call to chat to their archive section to see if they can give me some more information.
Many thanks for taking the time to look him up and for your prompt reply.
Regards
FJaney
-
Hi I am looking to see if my grandfather John McCarthy is in your book.He resided in Liverpool and was born approx 1876-he died in at sea near IOM and was pronounced dead at a hospital in Ramsey IOM in Sept 1942.Apparently in his 60's.His home address was Cosgrove Road Liverpool.Many thanks
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Hi, Charneca,
The name of John McCarthy doesn't appear in the List in Beyond the Bar.
Unfortunately, I would add that records for the dates which you quote (i.e. a working-life spent mostly in the 20th century) are virtually complete. The records are, however, kept under review and, as you might have noticed, a missing sheep from the 19th century was discovered hiding in the fold only a few days ago.
Do you have any firm evidence that he was a licensed pilot?
Much confusion has arisen from the issue of pilotage exemption certificates to shipmasters engaged in the coastal trade, not least from the common expression that the master of a particular coaster might "hold the licence", when in truth the document merely provides an exemption from the obligation to engage a licensed pilot. There were hundreds of exemption certificates issued in the coasting trade.
A First Class Pilot's Licence authorises a pilot to conduct the pilotage of any ship of any size.
An Exemption Certificate merely authorises the master of a particular ship to conduct his own pilotage.
Perhaps your Grandfather was a coastal shipmaster?
Any further information would be useful.
Best regards,
BY
-
Hi Dave Thanks for laying that myth to rest, but as a matter of interest,
would your colleague Andrew T Malcolm, mind if you gave me his Fathers name, and possibly his own date of birth. There may be a connection to my Malcolm Family tree.
Best Regards
Malc
-
Hi Malc
I'll contact him, and let you know with a PM
Regards
Dave
-
My gggrandfather Joseph Martin b 1833 was also a Pilot. (Record supplied by Maritime Museum from character book not too illustrious!) He was apprenticed in 1854 spent time on boat 5 and 8 Was dismissed in 1879.
I know he was living in Seacombe in 1879 but cannot find him after that. His wife and some children came to Australia in 1888.
Noticed another posting about John Alfred Martin... a long shot but wondering if a connection.
Regards
portlandlib
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I am a novice at this. Please excuse! If a Pilot was dismissed from the service in 1879, what career options would have been left for them?
Would they have been allowed to go to sea in another capacity?
thanks
-
Hi, Portlandlib- and welcome to the vast extended family of the LPS!
A pilot dismissed from the service in 1879 (or at any other time before or since) remained a free man, unrestricted by anything other than his own personal limitations and the laws which apply to everybody.
As to following another career at sea, that possibility would certainly be open to him. In realistic terms he would, however, be obliged to find a shipowner or shipmaster willing to employ him.
He could even buy his own vessel and use it for his own trade, if he could raise the capital to do so. Few pilots would have been in such a fortunate position, but it could not be ruled out as a possibility.
Although most pilots aspire to serve for life (because it is a most worthwhile career) others have discovered and confirmed happily that pilotage is not the only worthwhile career in life. In short, life is what you make it!
Hope this might help to answer your question.
Very best,
BY
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Hi, Portlandlib,
As to genealogy, I know of no LPS records which show any personal relationship between any two pilots.
Family matters were essentially private, as you can imagine, and it was mainly in the camaraderie of the saloon on board a pilot-boat (if at all) that family gossip was exchanged and became known to others. Father and son relationships were commonplace; others less so, but many existed.
As to genealogical records in the LPS over almost 250 years, however, that is where we are all reliant on the information kindly provided by vistors to this forum. Please keep it coming!
v best,
BY
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What a fantastic resource this is! I have been reading a ww1 diary of a relative who visited Liverpool in Feb 1917, and stayed at Denton Dr. Seacombe with William and Annie Davies. The diary mentions son Alf was at sea at the time. On your site I have discovered the same "Alfred Davies" as a Pilot apprentice who was killed H.M.X "Alfred H. Read" At the Bar 28th Dec 1917 aged 21. I have now to read more about this tragic event. The writer of the diary met his end in Sept of the same year near Ypres.
Thanks to all who contribute research.
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Many thanks to you, PL,
Very poignant.
BY
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What a fantastic resource this is! On your site I have discovered Alfred Davies as a Pilot apprentice who was killed H.M.X "Alfred H. Read" at the Bar 28th Dec 1917 aged 21.
Thanks to all who contribute research.
Glad you found my link to the ALFRED H READ incident on this board useful, Jan, although you must have burrowed mighty deep to locate it!
You and I of course 'met' recently on another message board when I responded (in different guise) to your post concerning the Stanley Arms Hotel in Seacombe. :-)
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My great uncle ALFRED ALEXANDER MACDONALD KNOWLER, Pilot 1st Class, was also lost with the Alfred H Read
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Alfred Davies, a Pilot apprentice, who was killed H.M.X "Alfred H. Read" At the Bar 28th Dec 1917 aged 21. I have now to read more about this tragic event.
As anyone with relatives lost in this incident will tell you, it's virtually impossible to find any detailed information concerning the tragedy. I personally have spent many hours in the Liverpool Record Office scouring local newspapers of the day without any success whatsover.
According to the Times newpaper of Thursday 13 February 1930 there's a book entitled 'The Liverpool Roll of Honour' which has one page devoted to the loss of the ALFRED H READ - the article adding that this 'could not be disclosed during the period of hostilities'.
The book was to be installed in a special case, with a glass cover, in the Cenotaph in the (presumably Anglican) Cathedral. Every page of the Roll had been photographed and the photographs bound in three volumes which were (in 1930) open to the inspection of the public in Liverpool.
Not sure if this link will work if you're not a member of Lancashire County Library, but here goes anyway :-
http://url.ie/8s9r
I haven't as yet managed to establish whether the original Roll is still in situ, nor whether and where the bound volumes can still be accessed by the Liverpool public (of which I am one).
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For anyone unable to access it, the Times newspaper article of Thursday 13 February 1930 reads :-
Liverpool Roll of Honour
A Remarkable Book
The Liverpool Roll of Honour, a remarkable book containing the names of 42,000 men of Liverpool and district who fell in the Great War, reached Liverpool yesterday from London and will be placed in the Cenotaph in the Cathedral. Ten years have been needed for the preparation of the volume, which consists of 800 vellum pages, is 22in by 18in in size, 7in thick, and is magnificently illuminated.
The names include that of Lord Kitchener, who was a Freeman of the city, while general inclusion has been given to all men of Liverpool birth irrespective of the unit with which they served. The names are preceded by an illuminated double opening title page containing the following inscription signed by the King :-
‘They whom this volume commemorates were numbered among those who at the call of King and Country left all that was dear to them, endured hardness, faced danger, and finally passed out of the sight of men by the path of duty and self-sacrifice, giving up their lives that others might live in freedom.
Let others who come after them see to it that their Name be not forgotten. – George RI’
The book is bound in cream vellum, and is fitted with three solid gold clasps and decorated with gold tooling. In the centre of each cover are grouped the arms of Lancaster and Chester and those of the Cathedral.
Most of the ships in the Royal Navy and many of the mercantile marine are to be found inscribed in the pages, while nearly every regiment of the Army is included.
One page recalls a tragedy of the War that could not be disclosed during the period of hostilities. On December 28, 1917, the Liverpool No 1 Pilot Boat, Alfred H Read, was torpedoed by the enemy off Liverpool Bar, and all the Mersey pilots, 20 in number, went down with her, together with other ratings.
Another tragedy which added many names to the Liverpool Roll was the sinking of the Lusitania.
The book is the largest single Roll of Honour in the country. It was commissioned in 1920, and Mr George Scruby spent 8½ years in the preparation of the pages. Mr Scruby has wide heraldic knowledge, and his task gave him opportunities which he has used with rich effect. Every page is illuminated in colour and burnished gold, and the introductory designs to each service and regiment have been beautifully carried out. The numerous recipients of the Victoria Cross among the recorded names are given special treatment., and the account of the act of conspicuous bravery which earned each decoration is set out in scarlet. The end page of the Roll bears the words ‘Their Names shall remain for ever, and their glory shall not be blotted out.’
Binding the sheets and the chasing of the clasps have required 18 months. The binding is the work of Mr George Sutcliffe, and is in keeping with the high standard of the illuminated pages. The book is to be installed in a special case, with a glass cover, in the Cathedral. Every page of the Roll has been photographed, and the photographs have been bound in three volumes, which are open to the inspection of the public in Liverpool.
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In " A History of the Liverpool Pilotage Service" (1949) by JS Rees, a very slightly different (and probably more accurate) version is given of the loss of Alfred H Read, viz:-
"In the early hours of the morning of 28th December 1917, the Service suffered one of the greatest disasters that had ever befallen it, when No 1 Pilot Boat the ss Alfred H Read struck a mine on the Bar Station, sinking in a few minutes, and out of 41 souls on board only two were saved; 19 pilots, 8 apprentices and 12 others making the supreme sacrifice."
The "12 others" on board would have included her normal complement of engineers and catering staff (probably 6 or 8 at most) - thus showing 4 or 6 "others" who might well have been (and probably were) members of HM Examination Service - a body of Royal Naval personnel whose function was to examine the documentation of inward-bound vessels in wartime.
Of the two survivors, I do know that one of them was John Sweetman, then an apprentice pilot aged about 19. He was licensed as a pilot in 1921 and later became Appropriated Pilot to the Blue Funnel Line. He retired in 1963 and died in 1969.
I have no information as to who the other survivor might have been.
As to whether Alfred H Read was torpedoed (as we are now told) or whether she struck a mine, much the more likely version is that she struck a mine because (a) the account is provided by JS Rees who had spent his entire working life as a Clerk in the Pilotage Office and therefore had access to all relevant contemporary records and (b) when considering submarine torpedo operations, the water in the region of the Bar is extremely shallow.
For my own part I am no expert in submarine operations, but have never heard of a report of any submarine (or enemy U boat) operating anywhere near the Bar. Neither do I know how any enemy mine came to be at the Bar. By enemy airborne operation, I suppose. Although airborne warfare was of course in its infancy in 1917, enemy aircraft over Merseyside were not unknown at the time.
Any further information would be most welcome.
v best,
BY
ps - John Sweetman was a notoriously heavy sleeper who is reliably reported to have said "The bang woke me up!"
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Hello
I am trying to find more information about my Great Grandfather William Mckenzie born 6th May 1865 - Greenwich - Woolwich Dockyard. Who on the 1911 was born in Portsmouth 1868 and was an A B Sailor Mercantile on the SS Harrison.
According to my mother he did the trade routes between Liverpool and Malta and was a Pilot.
Rachel
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Hi BY
The subject of portlandlib's post (Alfred DAVIES) could well be one of the seven victims of the ALFRED H READ disaster buried in Rake Lane Cemetery in Wallasey, as mentioned here :-
http://www.wallaseycemetery.co.uk/Alfred%20H%20Read.htm
This brief report of course supports your own theory (and mine, incidentally) that the vessel sank after striking a mine rather than as a result of enemy action.
Will see if I can find a grave for young Alfred during one of my future visits to Wallasey Library.
Best regards
G
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Hi, Glenburn,
Many thanks. A further possibility is that the mine might have been one of our own, perhaps adrift from a defensive minefield; or even that ALFRED H READ had strayed unintentionally into a defensive minefield. We simply do not know.
Hi, Canarygirl,
Am sorry to advise that there is no record of a McKenzie (or Mackenzie) in the LPS until well into the second half of the 20th century.
Best wishes,
BY
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Hi BY
Thank you for looking. Will try and find him in some other navel records.
Canarygirl
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The following may be of interest to recent posters fjaney and portlandlib who, if I've got my facts right, will be blood-related :-
The 21 year-old Alfred DAVIES lost from the ALFRED H READ in 1917 was the son of William & Annie DAVIES of 20 Denton Drive, Liscard.
This William DAVIES (b1851 Birkenhead) was himself a Liverpool Pilot, being the DAVIES W (iii) listed in Barrie Youde's book 'Beyond the Bar' as born 1851, licenced 1872, retired 1917, died 1930.
On 19 August 1877, in Liverpool St Silas, pilot William DAVIES married Anna Maria MARTIN, daughter of John Alfred MARTIN and Anna Maria WILLIAMS, who were married on 15 February 1853, also in Liverpool St Silas.
John Alfred MARTIN is undoubtedly the 1854 journeyman pilot of that name mentioned in davecigar's post of Tuesday 28 December 2010, and who seemingly died in 1856, hence :-
1861 Census
66 Kilshaw Street, Everton
Anna M MARTIN, W, 30, pilot's widow, born LAN Liverpool
Anna M, daur, 8, LAN Liverpool
John A, son, 5, LAN Liverpool
[The five year-old son in this census is almost certainly Liverpool Pilot MARTIN J A E (John Alfred Edward), born in 1856 and listed in Youde/Tebay as licenced 1877, retired 1915, died 1916.]
In his marriage entry in 1853 John Alfred MARTIN senior gave his age as 25 and his father's name as Hugh, suggesting that this is quite likely his baptism :-
20 January 1828
Liverpool St Peter
John Alfred MARTIN
Parents Hugh MARTIN and Mary
Abode - Stanley Street
Occupation - joiner
Other children of joiner Hugh MARTIN and his wife Mary (all baptised in Liverpool St Peter) include :-
6 Oct 1822 James
26 Jul 1824 Jane
21 Aug 1826 Anne
28 Feb 1832 Sarah
01 Nov 1833 Joseph
1841 Census
Thomas Street, Liverpool
Hugh MARTIN, 45, joiner, Y (born in Lancashire)
Mary, 45, Y
Jane, 15, Y
John, 10, Y
Joseph, 5, Y
Since ages in the 1841 were rounded down to the nearest five years (supposedly only for people over the age of 15), the above 10 year-old John looks like John Alfred born 1828 and five year-old Joseph the one born in 1833.
So the two Liverpool Pilots of those names were in fact brothers - John Alfred marrying Anna Maria WILLIAMS in 1853 and Joseph marrying Ellen CHARLTON from Southport in 1860.
Their parents' marriage quite likely being this one :-
9 December 1821
Liverpool St Thomas
Hugh MARTIN and Mary KNEEN
The fact that joiner Hugh MARTIN called his eldest son James, and that two (possibly three) of his sons became Liverpool Pilots, suggests that he himself might be a son of Liverpool Pilot James MARTIN ie the MARTIN James (i) listed in Youde/Tebay as born 1774, licenced 1798, retired 1829, died 1830.
Hugh's eldest son possibly being the MARTIN James (ii) licenced in 1842, died 1851?
Incidentally, this is believed to be the above-mentioned pilot William DAVIES (b1851 Birkenhead) with parents & siblings :-
1861 Census
60 Canning Street, Birkenhead
Humphrey DAVIES, 39, dock gateman, born CAE Caernarvon
Margaret, wife, 36, AGY Anglesey
William, son, 9, CHS Birkenhead
Ann Grace, daur, 6, CHS Birkenhead
Humphrey John, 1 month, CHS Birkenhead
Hope this has been of some help?
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Looks as though my hunch that all three sons of joiner Hugh MARTIN became Liverpool Pilots was correct:-
Marriage
21 July 1848
Liverpool St Peter
James MARTIN and Ann OWEN
Groom's father - Hugh MARTIN
Bride's father - Richard OWEN
1851 Census
4 Upper Hill Street, Toxteth Park
James MARTIN, 28, mariner pilot, born LAN Liverpool
Ann, wife, 33, pilot's wife, LAN Newton
Deaths
1851 DecemberQ
James MARTIN
Liverpool 20/224 or
West Derby 20/833
1861 Census
Hawkley Hall, Pemberton, Lancashire
Richard OWEN, 71, farmer of 160 acres, LAN Southworth
Ellen, wife, 66, LAN Winwick
Ann MARTIN, daur, W, 43, LAN Newton-in-Makerfield
Wonder why two of them (James and John Alfred) died so young?
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This latest exhange another clear reminder of the inter-connectedness o the pilotage family. Not at all surprising considering the likelihood that the the early shared ownership of boats is likely to both spring from and give rise to family ties.
It would be quite illuminating to recast the list of pilots in chronological order, and grouped by their service with relative boats, or even to create a family tree of the pilots.
My own cursory research suggests to me for exmaple that there must have been quite a pilot clan in and around Birkenhead. It already looks to me as if my own acnestors, thye Hughes, were lilely connected by marriage or neighbourhood (or both) to the Ledders. I also note that existence of a pub called the Pilot Boat on Magazine Brow - wonder if dave or Barrie know from pilot-lore if this has a long association with pilotage.
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Sorry, I have no personal information re The Pilot Boat Pub in Magazine Brow. It might be of interest that by Section 48 of the 1913 Pilotage Act an offence was created "If a licensed pilot, either within or without the district for which he is licensed, himself keeps or is interested in keeping by any agent, servant, or other person, any premises licensed for the sale of intoxicating liquors, or sells or is intersted in selling any intoxicating liquours, tobacco or tea" with liability to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds.
As to areas of residence, it seems clear that until about 1875, most but by no means all pilots lived in Liverpool. Some are known to have lived in Hoylake, Wallasey and Birkenhead, long before 1875. In 1885 the Service was at its maximum strength, with 262 licensed pilots. By the time of the Second World War, most but by no means all pilots lived in Wirral. By about 1970, still with 180 active pilots in the service, migration was taking place further afield, with several living in North Wales.
Hope this might help.
BY
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Re Glenburns factfinding: Many thanks.
Further to the interconnectedness and generations of pilots: Glenburn noted:
On 19 August 1877, in Liverpool St Silas, pilot William DAVIES married Anna Maria MARTIN, daughter of John Alfred MARTIN and Anna Maria WILLIAMS, who were married on 15 February 1853, also in Liverpool St Silas.
I just found Anna Maria Willliams father Robert listed as a Pilot and brother Edward as apprentice pilot in 1841. So father - Pilot, brother-apprentice pilot, husband pilot, son inlaw pilot, grandson pilot. I hope fjaney checks back in. It gets better by the day!
portlandlib
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I also note that existence of a pub called the Pilot Boat on Magazine Brow - wonder if dave or Barrie know from pilot-lore if this has a long association with pilotage.
If I can perhaps come in on this one, the Pilot Boat House Hotel is given coverage by local historian Noel Smith in his books 'Almost an Island - The Story of Wallasey' and 'Sandstone and Mortar - More of old Wallasey'.
Built in 1747, rebuilt in 1876, the public house is stated to have been the meeting place for the soldiers, fisherman and working-class folk of the district, who would enjoy a glass of ale and chat over the day's happenings. It was also the place where post-mortems were held on those found washed up on the sands or drowned in the river.
According to Noel it was called the Pilot Boat House due to the fact that a small boat belonging to the Pilotage was at one time kept at the back of the inn, but there's no known association with the service other than that.
My 3 x great-grandfather William EVANS, a fisherman in Hoylake at the time of his marriage in 1799, moved to the Magazines area of Wallasey around 1806 and eventually built what is now the Little Brighton Inn in Rowson Street - just up the road from the Pilot Boat House. Four of William's seven sons - all raised in the Magazines area - became licenced Liverpool Pilots, another being for many years master of the Magazines (later the New Brighton) lifeboat.
All the LEDDER pilots were descendants of Edward LEDDER (b1797 Wallasey) & Jane DEAN, and also lived in the Magazines area, but (most frustratingly) I haven't as yet been able to fit this particular line into my family tree with any degree of certainty. This despite the fact that I have Wallasey LEDDERS going back, via LEADER and LEATHER, to my 7 x great-grandfather John LEATHER (b1632 Puddington), who married Sarah BROWNE in a 'Parliamentary Wedding' on 4 August 1657 in Chester.
John & Sarah LEATHER were uncle & aunt to Thomas WILSON (b1663 Burton), who was Bishop of Sodor & Man from 1697 until his death in 1755.
Would be most interested to know imd6662's connection to the LEDDER pilots, and whether he's been able to take this line back any further than the Edward born in 1797?
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BY: When you think of the horrors that tea has visited on the world, how prudent it was of the authorities to prevent pilots from trucking in it!
glenburn: Thanks - sent you a PM.
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imd.
Quite so!
BY
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As an illustration of the inter-connectedness of some of the Wirral-based Liverpool Pilot familes, fisherman Edward LEDDER (b1797 Wallasey) married fisherman's daughter Jane DEAN (b1798 Liscard) and had the following children before his untimely death in 1832 at the age of only 34 :-
1822 Edward (m Dorothy JONES 1846 in Liverpool)
1824 Joseph (see below)
1827 Margaret (see also below)
1829 George (m Sarah Louisa BARNWELL 1858 in Liverpool St Simon)
1831 James (d1832)
Edward (b1822) attained a Liverpool Pilot's licence in 1844. He was drowned on 1 March 1873 when the ship CHACABUCO which he was piloting into Liverpool collided with the Liverpool/Dublin steamship TORCH.
George (b1829) attained a licence in 1855. His son Edward John LEDDER (b1859 Liscard) was also a Liverpool Pilot.
According to Youde/Tebay Joseph LEDDER [b1824] attained a licence in 1847, although in newspaper reports of his death on 5 December that year he was described as only an apprentice. (Six men belonging to No 4 Pilot Boat were lost when their punt capsized whilst transferring from No 12 boat).
George LEDDER's wife Sarah BARNWELL (b1836 Leamington) had a younger sister Jane (b1841 Leamington) who married Liverpool Pilot Henry DEAN (b1841 Wallasey) in 1863 in Birkenhead. After Jane's death in 1874 (aged only 32) Henry DEAN married George's sister Margaret LEDDER (b1827).
Henry DEAN was nephew to Margaret's mother Jane DEAN (b1798 Liscard).
Lydia SMITH (b1802 Wallasey) was an illegitimate daughter of William LEDDER and Mary SMITH. In 1820 she married butcher Samuel LESTER (b1800 Wallasey), who was first cousin to Liverpool Pilot Thorley LESTER (b1790 Brimstage).
After Samuel LESTER's early death in 1821 Lydia married plasterer's labourer James LEDDER (b1799 Wallasey).
The above Thorley LESTER (the first of three Liverpool Pilots of that name) was witness to my 3 x great-grandfather William EVANS' will in 1839.
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I'm wondering if someone could help me with the name of Pilot boat no 5 in mid 1850s and again in mid 1870s?
Also could you confirm that boat no 8 in 1860s was named "Pride of Liverpool". I have found pictures of Woods watercolours of it, but so far nothing of boat 5.
The help provided to me earlier in the month has been invaluable. I would like to make contact with fjaney (who shares the Martin interest)
Regards,
Portlandlib
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Hi,
Pilot sloop No 5 "Victoria" built in 1843 by Thos Wilson of Liverpool
Replaced in 1856 by the schooner "Victoria & Albert", built by Michael Ratsey.
She remained in service until 13th May 1888 when she was rundown and sunk by the Barque "Governor", 3 miles WNW of the Bar Lightship.
The "Criterion" No 10, a schooner built in 1854 by Thos Harvey & Sons of Ipswich, became No 5 in 1888 to replace the "Victoria & Albert" and was finally withdrawn in May 1898 and sold to the Dunkirk Pilot Service
"Pride of Liverpool" was No 8, a schooner built in 1861 by Thos Royden & Sons of Liverpool. She was sunk by the s.s "Rydal Water" on 26th February 1890.
Suggest you send fjaney a personal message through this site.
Regards
Dave
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Dave,
Thanks for the prompt reply. Have followed advice re personal message.
Jan
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Can I request more look ups please? Each step I take on the family history trail reveals more Pilots!
I would like to confirm some census info if possible. (fjaney and I have now connected off line)
In the 1851 census Jane Sale(nee Martin) Pilot’s wife was living in a household with her husband William Lea Sale Pilot and her brothers Joseph Martin 17 apprentice pilot and John age 22( John Alfred) Pilot (You looked this up for fjaney)
In 1871 John B Sale 18yrs son of Jane Sale is listed as an apprentice pilot.
I thought that Joseph Martin (born 1833) was apprenticed in 1854 so wonder if you could check this for me and provide confirmation for William Lea Sale and John B Sale.
Kind regards
portlandlib
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Hi Jan
Glad to hear that you've managed to establish contact with fjaney, who's patently a blood-relative of yours.
I could possibly have answered your questions re William Lea and John B, but it would be more than my life is worth to steal Dave or Barrie's kudos - particularly if I were to get it wrong. :-)
However, if you don't already have it, you may be interested in the following from the Liverpool Mercury of Wednesday 10 June 1857 :-
Pilot Boat Accident.
To the Editors of the Liverpool Mercury.
Gentlemen, In your paper of the 6th instant I perceive there is a statement respecting the loss of two pilots from pilot boat No 5 (of which I am the master), when on her station at Hoylake about 14 days previously; and as some part of that statement is not correct, I will thank you to publish the following, which is in truth the reality :-
It is stated that there were two men, the one drowned and the other having died of exposure after the accident. Now the fact is, that William SALE, who was drowned, went of his own accord, to steer the punt in which two of the apprentices were having the steamer WILLIAM PENN to board; the second pilot, CASEMENT, was not in the water at all, and is now alive.
The accident occurred in consequence of the punt not being steered in such a manner as to keep her off the pilot boat's quarter.
Yours &c
Isaac WILLIAMS, first master No 5 Pilot Schooner
Liverpool
8 June 1857
Incidentally, there was also a Liverpool Pilot named George SALE, born 1877, licensed 1901, retired 1942, died 1969 (aged 92!), but there's no obvious connection to William Lea or John B(radford).
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Hi, GB!
My apologies for any delay in response but I've only just seen your latest re George Sale.
Please let me say at once that there is no kudos to be stolen and I'm sure that I speak for David Cockram in saying that we are all privileged to be members of the LPS family at all.
As to George Sale (who was known as Barney Sale), his was a name which I heard a thousand times in my youth; and my own father and Dave's father will have known him very well.
Somewhere I have (as a treasured possession) a chart of the River Mersey dated 1940 with many red circles superimposed. Each circle is marked either "L" , "M" or "S" (Large, Medium or Small) and identifies an anchorage for a large, medium-sized or small ship. The purpose of the chart (very clearly) is to identify the maximum number of ships which could be crammed into the anchorages of the Mersey in those dark days of WWII. The chart is over-stamped "G. Sale. Master, Number 1 Pilot Boat - Defence of the Realm Act".
As my own father was a serving pilot at the time I have no doubt that he would have had a similar chart - and quite how (or why) he came to hold Barney Sale's chart I don't know, but amongst people who worked closely together it seems obvious that loans/exchanges of documents/information etc would occur regularly.
With many thanks for your own information - do please keep it coming!
Very best,
BY
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A further snippet from the same era is that during WWII there was of course much Royal Naval activity at Liverpool, in addition to the merchant trade which was operating at full capacity and more.
Unusually, it was decided to appoint a King's Harbour Master at Liverpool, an office normally held only at the RN Dockyard Ports such as Portsmouth, Plymouth, Rosyth etc. Selected to fulfil this role was Pilot Tom Small (born 1873 and who had retired in 1938 aged 65.) Such were the merits of Tom Small (a Blue Funnel pilot for more than 30 years) that he was called from retirement for the role ; and he it was who identified, organised and designated the many anchorages as shown on Barney Sale's DORA chart.
Quite how well the the red circles served would depend, of course, on the navigational skills of pilots and others in identifying and adhering to the designated/plotted positions; but the evidence of effort and organisation is clear in any event.
My father often told me that, so closely were the ships crowded into the anchorages at the time that the need to maintain anchor-watches was particularly acute and any sleep or rest was at a premium. As he expressed it, "Trousers became worn through at the knees through kneeling on settees and peering through portholes to make sure that anchor bearings had not changed , anchors had not dragged in the tideway and ships had not become dangerously close to each other."
Tom Small had two sons WJ (Bill) born 1902 who became Master of No. 4 Pilot Boat and OG (Overton or Ovey) who served as a Blue Funnel Pilot from 1939 until his retirement in 1965.
BY
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Hi I wonder if anyone could look up a deceased family member whom we have been told was a mersey pilot, details as follows
James H Mylcreest he lived on Wirral [New Brighton] time span could be 1930s---1960s. It is possible he was part of the crew and not a pilot the family knew him as Harold ,Would appreciate any info.
Regards from Chris
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Hi, Clwyd,
Your relative could only have been Harold Mylchreest (JH Mylchreest), who was born 1895, Licensed in 1919, retired in 1960 and died in 1978.
He served as Appropriated Pilot to Manchester Liners Ltd.
If you search back a few pages on this site, I think that you will find that other members of your family have also made enquiries.
Hope this helps.
Best Rgds,
BY
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Hi Barry thanks very much for info he will be correct person he married my wife's aunty Mary Parry from Amlwch approx 1935 , miss the nautical poems on ADN [curious]
Best wishes Chris [aka craghopper]
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Dave,
I have a newspaper clipping dated 25th January 1895 which names John Swarbrick as the pilot of the steamship "Serona" which collided with a schooner in the Crosby Channel. I presume that John Swarbrick was a Mersey pilot - do you have any further information on him please?
jds1949
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Hi, JDS,
Dave has asked me to respond to queries which are addressed to him, as he is away at present.
Am sorry to say that the name Swarbrick does not appear in the list in Beyond the Bar, which is virtually complete but is known to have (very rare) omissions. An omission in the Martin family came to light (through Dave's further research) only a few weeks ago.
The greater likelihood is that John Swarbrick would have been a shipmaster holding a Pilotage Exemption Certificate. (There were many; and to what extent their names might be recorded at the Maritime Museum I simply don't know - but it might be worth your while trying there.)
Any further information which you might have would be most welcome.
Best,
BY
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Thanks for the quick response. The snippet, transcribed by me, is as follows:
GLEANINGS
As a result of an inquest before the Liverpool Coroner on the body of William Evans, cook of the Preston schooner J C Swindlehurst which sank on Sunday after colliding with the steamer Sirona in the Crosby Channel, the jury found that the accident was brought about by "misjudgement" on the part of the Sirona's pilot, John Swarbrick.
It is taken from the Birmingham Daily Post of 25th January 1895.
jds1949
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Many thanks, JDS.
Fascinating that the Birmingham Daily Post should have taken an interest.
I still think that your best line for further research will be the Maritime Museum, citing all that you say above.
Good hunting! Please let us all know if you find something.
Best,
BY
PS Tebay's List of Pilots was a major (but not the only) source for my own List. I very much doubt that I would have missed the name Swarbrick if it had been in Tebay's List, for two reasons (i) It is not a common name and (ii) I did know the name Swarbrick (wholly unrelated to pilotage) in my own childhood. It would immediately have rung a bell with me if it had been in any List which I have yet seen. Hence my own doubts.
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BY,
thanks again for the prompt response - I shall do some more digging. Local papers at that date often picked up items from other provincial papers if they had spare space - I suspect the same item or similar had appeared in a Liverpool paper a day or two before - I just haven't found it yet.
As for your recognising the Swarbrick name - I research all Swarbrick families - so if you are still on contact with one and they have an interest in family history point them in my direction.
Thanks,
jds1949
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Hi, I'm trying to trace my 2xgtgrandfather - Jean Baptiste Laroche and wondered if there was any record on him as a Liverpool Pilot.
He is a Pilot on his marriage certificate to my 2xgtgrandmother on 30th June 1852 St Michael's Church, Liverpool. His residence at time of Marriage says Corlett Street (of Quebec Canada). My 2xgtgrandmother is a widow when she remarries in 1855. His father is Jean Laroche, also a Pilot.
Many thanks
Julie
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Very sorry, Julie,
No known record of the name Laroche in the Pilot Service at Liverpool.
Quebec seems the more likely option - No doubt you will have tried there?
Good hunting,
BY
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Jean Baptiste Laroche is number 37 on this list of Quebec pilots - presumably the 48 after his name is his age in 1851:
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/scripts/data/database.cgi?file=Data&report=SingleArticle&ArticleID=0032760
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Shaun..thank you so much for taking the time. Great to see...I think that must be his father who was also a Pilot (Jean Laroche) as Jean Baptiste was only 20 at that time. I think the Baptiste Laroche name in Canada is as common as Jones over here - my maiden name. My ancestors didn't make it easy for me!!! Many thanks, Julie.
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Hi
I'm looking for any details on Pilot Thomas LESTER who I believe has previously been mentioned on this site but no details given. Also for a possible relative of his Thorley LESTER.
Thomas married Mary RUSHTON in 1787 at St Peter, Liverpool and his occupation was shown as Pilot. The baptisms for all of his children also show his occupation as pilot.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Regards
Gail
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Hi, Gail,
Records show :-
Born Licensed Retired Died
Thomas Lester 1784 1813 at sea
Thorley Lester (i) 1809 1858
Thorley Lester (ii) 1815 1834 1861
Thorley Lester (iii) 1837 1861 1898 1900
A splendid family record!
Am fairly sure that you will be able to discover more from either John Tebay's "List of Pilots" or
else from the Pilots' Character Book held at Merseyside Maritime Museum, from which Tebay's List was compiled.
Good hunting!
BY
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Many thanks BY that's fantastic and such a fast response :-)
I live in Australia so a visit to the MMM is out of the question but you have cleared up one puzzle with the date of death for Thomas.
Thanks again
Gail
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I should have added that Thorley Lester (i) was born in 1790 and died in 1858 and that Thorley Lester (ii) died in 1869.
Regards
Gail
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Very many thanks, Gail!
Will amend my own records accordingly.
It is always a pleasure to see gaps completed or errors corrected, particularly from the extended family.
Repeated thanks,
BY
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Hi Gail
The Liverpool Pilot Thomas LESTER who died in service in 1813 was first cousin to my 3 x great-grandfather William EVANS (b1775). It's believed that following the death of his mother Mary EVANS (nee SHERLOCK) when he was just three years old, William was raised by his uncle Thomas LESTER and aunt Elizabeth LESTER (nee SHERLOCK) in the house owned by schoolmaster Richard SHERLOCK (b1711 Oxton) on the north side of Thomas Street in Liverpool, as mentioned in the latter's will dated 2 December 1803.
This close relationship with his cousin is believed to have been instrumental in four of William's seven sons (and many of his grandsons) later becoming licenced Liverpool Pilots.
Incidentally, I have a couple of pics of the original Thorley LESTER's grave in Wallasey St Hilary churchyard which I took as a favour for a distant cousin some years ago and can send as attachments should you be sufficiently interested?
Thorley was a witness to my 3 x great-grandfather William EVANS' will in 1837.
Best wishes
(You know who, of course) :-)
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Hi Gordon
No need to send the photos as I have seen them on trees on Ancestry and probably the one who you took them for also.
I will send you an email about other family connections.
Best regards
Gail
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Hi Dave,
could you please look up Evan Richards in the "Liverpool Pilot Service. List of Pilots". He lived close to Liverpool and put "pilot" as his occupation in 1892. In other records he is a mariner, sailor or master mariner. He was born in about 1857. He was married in 1877 and his father's name was Richard Roberts - the family story is that there was confusion as their English was not great, and he changed his name... So it is possible that he was also known as Evan Roberts.
Thaks in advance for your help.
Gillian
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Hi, GMR.
Very sorry, there is no record of an Evan Richards, nor any Richards, in available Pilot Service records.
As to Roberts, there are many, but the only E Roberts was born 1839, licensed in 1859 (a very young man) and retired (or left the Service) in 1875.
Good hunting!
BY
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Hi BY
You mention that the E ROBERTS born 1839 was 'a very young man' when licensed in 1859.
Just as a matter of interest, I have a relative Richard EVANS who was born on 10 August 1785 in Arrowe and who attained a Liverpool Pilot's licence in 1802 when he'd have been aged barely 17.
He retired in 1844 and (according to the Pilot's Character Book) died in 1855 at the age of 69 'after eating a hearty dinner'.
Best regards
G
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Many thanks, GB!
Do you have any other record of the circumstances of his early life? It would be most interesting to know.
Records of men holding command at the age of 19 are not unknown, but I have not previously heard of a pilot's licence being granted at the age of "barely 17".
V best,
BY
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Hi BY
Don't know much about Richard EVANS' early life as yet, but he was first cousin to, and a near-contemporary of, Thorley LESTER (b1790 Brimstage), who was also 'a very young man' (barely 19) when he attained his Liverpool Pilot's licence in 1809.
Could be that Tebay has the wrong year for Richard EVANS' licence, of course - maybe 1807 rather than 1802?
Regards
GB
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Many thanks, GB.
That does seem much more probable!
Any further information is always welcome.
v best,
BY
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Many Thanks BY,
I have managed to find the record of his mate certificate in 1893, so made some progress. He seems to have lived in both North Wales (Bangor/Menai Straits) and the Liverpool area. Do you know of any resources for North Wales Pilots?
Thanks agan for your lookup.
GMR
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Hi, GMR,
Merseyside Maritime Museum should be able to direct you to most maritime records in North Wales. I know that some records are kept at Bangor, at Portmadoc and at Holyhead, but regret that I don't have the contact details to hand; but I'd guess that MMM will have them.
Very best,
BY
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Thanks BY,
I'll try the MMM
GMR
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Evan Richards ....was married in 1877 and his father's name was Richard Roberts - the family story is that there was confusion as their English was not great, and he changed his name... So it is possible that he was also known as Evan Roberts.
You're almost certainly looking at Welsh Patronymics here, whereby children took the father's christian name rather than his surname.
As an example of how this operated, here's a page from the Penmon Marriage Registers in Anglesey which I'm currently transcribing for a friend :-
18 November 1844
John WILLIAMS, bachelor, father William HUGHES, and
Elizabeth HUGHES, spinster, father Hugh ROGERS
So on the same lines your Evan, son of Richard ROBERTS, would be Evan RICHARDS rather than Evan ROBERTS?
There is of course an entry for an Evan RICHARDS born 1856 in Dyffryn Ardudwy, Merionethshire, on the Welsh Mariners website :-
http://www.welshmariners.org.uk/
confirming that he qualified as a mate in 1893, certificate of competency no 103581.
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Hi there,
I'm hoping you may be able to help here.
I have been researching my family tree and recently discovered that my GGG Grandfather, a Dr Richard Sumner, played a substantial part in the rescue of the crew of pilot Boat No 1 "The Good Intent" during a storm off Formby on 28/29 Nov 1833. Thirteen members of the twenty-two man crew perished, but for his involvement in the rescue, Richard was awarded Gold and Silver medals from the Royal Humane Society and the Royal Shipwreck Society of London.
http://www.formbycivicsociety.org.uk/learning/full_article.asp?storyid=117
http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?show=ConNarrative.42&chapterId=206
http://www.old-liverpool.co.uk/Pilots.html
http://library.thehumanjourney.net/273/1/L10203_StThomasChurchFullReportF.pdf
I note on several entries on Rootsweb and the above links, that some or all of the following persons may have perished as a result of this shipwreck
Master – William Webster (plus 6 of his crew and 5 people from other Pilot boats)
William Evans
Andrew Heatley (possible, but unsure)
George Gibb (possible, but unsure)
Edmund Richardson (buried at St Thomas Church, Park Lane Liverpool)
I would be very interested to know if you have a list of the 22 members aboard Pilot Boat No 1 around this time (1833), “The Good intent” . I would also like to obtain a list of both saved / not saved - can you steer me in the right direction for this?
Sincerely, Greg Nichols Brisbane, Australia
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Hi, Greg,
JS Rees (History of the Liverpool Pilotage Service 1949 -published by Southport Guardian) tells us :-
"On Friday 29th November 1833, during a most destructive storm, No. 1 pilot boat, the Good Intent, 52 tons burthen, was wrecked off Formby.
During the height of the gale on the previous evening the pilot boat took a heavy lurch and shipped a sea, which washed her punt off the deck and thrust it into the belly of the sail, tearing a hole in the canvas. The sail thus damaged was soon blown to rags by the wind, rendering the vessel unmanageable. Several of the crew lashed themselves to the rigging, whilst others endeavoured to keep a footing on the deck. Being at the mercy of the wind and waves she was driven on the Formby Beach, when out of a crew of 22 only 9 were saved. The master, William Webster, was one of those who perished."
Sadly, no further names are given, although there might possibly be a record at Merseyside Maritime Museum.
Rees records that, following this disaster, it was proposed that a steam-driven pilot boat be introduced into the Service. A further sixty-three years were to pass before that happened in 1896.
Hope this might help.
Very best,
BY
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Hi Dave/BY
Tebay's 'List of Pilots 1734-1990' is of course an invaluable resource for anyone with Liverpool Pilots in their family tree, but I wonder just how thorough was his research and to what degree his findings were independently checked prior to publication?
The reason I ask is that, apart from discovering two definite errors concerning the demise of two of my EVANS relatives, I've also noticed a couple of other apparent anomolies viz :-
(i) According to http://www.old-liverpool.co.uk/Pilots.html a Hugh PEERS (who married Martha LESTER in 1787) was 1st master of No 6 FRIENDS GOODWILL in February 1808, with a Hugh PEERS junior and a Thomas LESTER included in the list of pilots.
But Tebay has only one H PEERS, licensed in 1786, died 1813 (the same year as No 6 pilot Thomas LESTER).
I can't help wondering whether Tebay's PEERS W, licensed 1814, retired 1827, is in fact Hugh's son Hugh (b1787 Liverpool) by his first wife Martha LESTER?
(The PEERS SR in Tebay's list, licensed 1827, retired 1854, is Hugh senior's son Stanley Roberts PEERS by his second wife Elizabeth ROBERTS).
(ii) The above Martha LESTER's sister Mary (b1762 Landican) married John CHATTERTON in 1781.
Tebay has a pilot CHATTERTON T, licensed 1817, retired 1846, died 1853.
When a Thomas CHATTERTON married Christiana CHATTERTON on 13 October 1829 in Christ Church, Hunter Street, his occupation was given as pilot.
When a Thomas CHATTERTON married Elizabeth Grace HEWITT on 18 September 1833 in Liverpool St Anne Richmond his occupation was also given as pilot.
The 1841 Census has a 38 year-old master pilot Thomas CHATTERTON (born c1803) living in Wesley Street, Toxteth Park, with 33 year-old wife Christieny. By 1851 Christieny is a 43 year-old widow living in New Ferry, indicating that master-pilot Thomas (born c1803) died some time between 1841 & 1851?
The 1851 Census has a 57 year-old Thomas CHATTERTON (born c1794) living in Chadwick Place, Liverpool, with wife Elizabeth Grace, occupation superannuated pilot.
So ostensibly two pilots named Thomas CHATTERTON, but only one in Tebay's list?
I would stress that this isn't to detract from the value of Tebay in any way - it's merely a comment concerning the perceived accuracy/reliability thereof.
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Hi, GB,
I'm sure that John Tebay would have been the first to acknowledge that his List is far from complete. He was the first to undertake the mammoth task of trying to compile any List of Liverpool Pilots in a convenient and accessible form and we all owe him a very large debt. Not even JS Rees undertook that task.
The advent of the internet is a thing which was unknown at the time when Tebay was conducting his research in the late 80s and early 90s. My guess is that his research was confined to Pilot Service records.
For my own part, the List which appears in Beyond The Bar is, even today, not held on computer and I am at present undertaking the task of rewriting that List as a computerised document. I regret that I am too busy at present to undertake further research, but I certainly do welcome information regarding errors and omissions which are identified and verified.
If by chance you might have a comprehensive list of any errors/omissions which you have been able to identify in the Second Edition, then I would be most grateful if you might kindly let me know.
Very best,
BY
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Thanks for your help on this BY,
I have contacted the National Museums liverpool website and lodged a Maritime Archives Enquiry
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Hi,
I think I've seen the photos of Thorley Lester's grave on other websites. As a descendant of Thorley Lester, I would be very interested in seeing the grave for myself and would be grateful if you were able to describe whereabouts in St Hilary's Church grounds it is situated?
Many thanks
Jill
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Hi Jill
I presume your post is intended for me rather than Dave or BY?
The grave-finding directions I gave to the lady in Scotland who has posted my private photographs of Thorley's headstone on the worldwide web were as follows :-
'Go to the old tower, and with your back to Claremount Road look for a WEBSTER grave on the left-hand side. Follow this row to the left, heading towards HUGHES, and it's the fifth grave before the end.'
Can send you a map of the churchyard showing precise location if you'd care to let me have your e-mail address by pm (Rootsweb admin will delete if posted on this forum).
PS. I have no fewer than 10 Thorley LESTERs in my family tree, three of whom were licensed Liverpool Pilots - one born 1790 in Brimstage (Cheshire), one 1816 in Liverpool and another 1837, also in Liverpool.
The grave in Wallasey St Hilary churchyard described above is that of the first one ie born 1790 in Brimstage.
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Hi,
Yes, I only joined the website yesterday, so although I thought i had posted a reply directly to your msg, I obviously have not got the hang of it yet :)
Not sure what you meant by emailing pm, but many thanks for the directions, I will visit the churchyard very soon and pay my respects.
Best wishes
Jill
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Hi again Jill
To send a pm (personal message) you simply click on the 'scroll' logo beneath a poster's name.
Incidentally, although Thorley LESTER (b1790 Brimstage) isn't directly related to me, his first cousin once removed Thomas LESTER (b1738 Arrowe) married my 4 x great-grand aunt Elizabeth SHERLOCK on 8 January 1760 in Upton-in-Overchurch St Mary.
So you and I are in fact distantly related via a long-ago 'sibling marriage'. :)
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Hi, Gail,
Records show :-
Born Licensed Retired Died
Thomas Lester 1784 1813 at sea
Thorley Lester (i) 1809 1858
Thorley Lester (ii) 1815 1834 1861
Thorley Lester (iii) 1837 1861 1898 1900
Hi BY
In your book 'Beyond the Bar' you list Thorley (i) as DIED in 1858, a blank being shown in the 'Retired' column. But he isn't 'flagged' as having died in service?
The inference being that he retired in 1858 (aged 67) and died not long afterwards?
His gravestone in Wallasey St Hilary churchyard appears to bear the inscription 'He retired from the Pilot service of the Port of Liverpool in 1815 after 31 years Mastership'.
The year is patently incorrect, but I wondered if you or Dave could perhaps tell me precisely when Thorley (i) became a Master Pilot?
Best wishes
GB
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Hi, GB.
My apologies.
The devil lies in the detail, as it frequently does.
The First Edition of Beyond The Bar lists your ancestor Thorley Lester (i) as having died (but not as having retired) in 1858.
The Second Edition lists him as having retired in 1858, with his date of death unrecorded. Most clearly there is an error in my own efforts between the First and Second Edition (let alone anywhere else); and I can only repeat my apologies and my thanks for pointing it out. I can only confirm that it is a purely clerical error in any event; as the clearly excellent record of the Lester family had not previously been drawn to my attention, other than in this forum.
Both Editions (following Tebay's List of Pilots) show Thorley Lester (i) as having been first licensed in 1809 - which rules out 31 years of Mastership by 1815 by some distance. JS Rees shows a Thorley Lester as a Master pilot in 1824, holding 16 of the 64 shares in the pilot-cutter Friends Goodwill. This could only have been Thorley (i) if, as it appears, Thorley (ii) was born only in 1815 and was therefore only nine years of age in 1824.
Thomas Lester, however, is shown as having been licensed in 1784 and having died at sea in 1813 (after 29 years in service as a licensed pilot) - a record which is much nearer to 31 years of service combined with death in 1815. JS Rees shows Thomas Lester as having been a journeyman pilot in the cutter Fiends Goodwill in 1808.
The Friends Goodwill (the second of her name, again Rees tells us) was sloop-rigged, built in 1789 and sold out of the Service in 1832.
Hope this might help, if only a little.
Very best,
BY
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Hi, GB,
A thought. The fact that the gravestone in St Hilary's Church shows a Thorley Lester (etc) as having died in 1815 suggests that Thomas Lester (presumably the ancestor of them all) might well have been known as "Thorley"; and that the gravestone is his. The Pilot Service is notorious for its many nicknames, some of which applied in blood-families, too.
It seems clear that the 1815 gravestone cannot apply to the man listed as Thorley (i), who was very clearly alive and kicking until 1858 (whether that was the year of his retirement or his death) - and was a Master Pilot in 1824, when Thorley (ii) was only nine years of age.
As to the difference between the 1815 gravestone and the recorded death at sea of Thomas ("Thorley?") Lester in 1813, again the old-enemy of typographical error might very easily account for it.
V best,
BY
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A further thought is that perhaps "Thomas" Lester's real name was Thorley Lester; and that Pilot Service records at the time simply refused to recognise that a a pilot could have such a posh name! This would at least explain why the family used "Thorley" on the 1815 gravestone. Stranger things have happened.
Best,
BY
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Hi BY
Many thanks for your helpful suggestions, but I don't believe there were any Thorley LESTERs earlier than the one born 1790 in Brimstage, he being the second son of farmer John LESTER and Martha THORLEY (hence his name) who were married on 18 November 1773 in Woodchurch Holy Cross.
Moreover, the St Hilary gravestone quite clearly gives the date of death for the pilot with '31 years Mastership' as 4th April 1858, aged 67.
When I first stumbled across the grave some four years ago my immediate assumption was that the year of retirement should read 1845, but I subsequently found that in the 1851 Census Thorley's occupation is given as master pilot, not master pilot retired.
As Jillgw (a direct descendant) has pointed out to me privately, Thorley's boat the IRLAM (after which he named his cottage in Liscard) was sold out of the pilotage service in 1852, so maybe it was not long after the 1851 census that (aged 62) he decided to hang up his boots?
The only answer, really, is for me to have a look at the Pilots' Character Book in the MMM Archives, which I need to do anyway (as soon as domestic circumstances permit) to try to identify if/how the Thomas LESTER and William LESTER - both licensed in 1784 - fit into my family tree.
Best Regards
GB
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Hi, GB,
Would this make sense?
You now make it clear that the gravestone does apply to Thorley(i) after all; and that 1858 was the year of his death.
Given that he was licensed in 1809, 31 years of subsequent service leads us to 1845, including at least 21 years (since 1824, according to Rees) as Master of a pilot-cutter. A proud family might very easily stretch this to "31 years as a master pilot": which would make your hunch as to 1845 retirement quite right.
As to the census, if he still owned shares in a pilot-cutter in 1851 (as well he might have done, even in his retirement) then there would be nothing greatly improper in omitting the word "retired" from the census form.
Fascinating!
v best,
BY
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Thank goodness the Liverpool Pilotage Service wasn't ever run on the same lines as its New York equivalent - see :-
http://www.yuhsg.org/webpages/hurst/files/Shipwreck%20Lesson.pdf
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Hi, GB,
O tempora, O mores!
I would take all of that with a very large pinch of salt, bearing in mind that there are good men and there are rogues in every walk of life. The LPS has long been pleased to share a common calling with the pilots of New York. If legal discipline in pilotage might have been more strict in Liverpool than it was in New York at any time, that is no moral fault of any New York pilot.
The advent of legal control in either place was merely an accident of time. It was also far beyond the control of any individual pilot. It was very much a public matter anywhere. It still is. I have yet to meet a saint in the world of pilotage!
Very best,
BY
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Hello Dave,
Could you please check the surname CHARD?
I'm looking for a JOHN CHARD around 1810 -1840s
Thank you
Bevo
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Hi, Bevo,
Am sorry to let you know that the surname CHARD does not appear in any known LPS record.
Dave might have better information and will no doubt let us know, as and when he can; but it seems unlikely.
v best,
BY
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Hi,
What was your grandmothers name? William J was also my grandfathers (Clifford) father, my mother has
some memories from this time (but not really of William J as she was very young) and would like to know which of the dauighters she was.
Thanks
Best wishes
John
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William Clifford Holmes (my grandfather) did originally join the Pilot Service however he did not complete the trainining as he left and went to sea. He eventually married and became a Police Officer in Liverpool, later the licensee in a number of public houses in the Liverpool area, notably The Coberg (still there) and Quinns
(pulled down many years ago).
rgds
Johncl
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Hi Glenburn
On the slightly off-topic of St. Hilary church grounds, my relative William Henry Haynes died May 28 1888 and was buried there May 31 1888. Do you know of a source of inscriptions or photos of the gravestones? I live in Canada so can't easily pop by. Is there a list/map of the stones or would someone have to go through the whole grounds to find him?
Any suggestions appreciated.
A.
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Thank you for checking the CHARDs
Bevo
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Hi arleneo
Have located your grave in St Hilary's churchyard - will send a pm.
GB
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Hi Glenburn,
How exciting! I see that I have to post 3 messages before I can receive personal messages so here is my second one.
A.
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Hi Glenburn,
It is very kind of you to do lookups for people. Look forward to reading your PM. It must be evening where you are.
A.
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Hello,
Thanks to all who've helped with info in the past. Just returning to the "Pilots" side of the tree. Can someone check whether there are 2 William Sales listed as pilots. I'm thinking William Sale who died 1857 might have been known as William Taylor Sale. and wonder whether there was a William Lea Sale also pilot? Also is there a Samuel James Rule?
Many Thanks
portlandlib
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Hi,
There are 3 Sales in the list.
William, for whom you already have the info.
John Broadfoot Sale, born 1852, licenced 1873, retired 1915.
George Sale, born 1877, licenced 1901, retired 1942.
There aren't any Rules in the list of Pilots.
Best of luck in your research
Regards
Dave
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Thanks Dave for such a prompt reply!
Regards
Jan
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Hi, according to my grandfathers marriage certificate (1901) his father is down as Edwin Morgan, Pilot, Deceased. As my grandfather lived in Liverpool from the age of 4 can you help to see if there is any record of a Pilot named Edwin Morgan on the Mersey, mid to late 1800s. I am having difficulty finding just when he died so finding if he worked in Liverpool will help. Thanks
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Hi,
Only 2 Morgans in the list.
Nicholas Morgan born 1862, licenced 1884, retired 1921.
William Morgan born 1852, licenced 1871, died in service 1899. Did William have aother christian name, Edwin? Maybe the Pilot Character Book could tell you at MMM, Albert Dock, Liverpool,
Sorry can't be of more help
Regards
Dave
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Many thanks Dave, I am waiting for some birth certs which may shine more light on the problem. There is also a likelyhood that my Great Grandfather was a Pilot in South Wales before he died. Its another line for me to follow. Thanks again.
Barry
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Hi,
My 2nd great grandmother's father was recorded as a pilot on her marriage certificate in 1870. Her name was Margaret Evans, born about 1850 in Liverpool and her father was William Evans. Do you have any information about him?
Regards,
Tony.
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Hi, Tony,
There is a William Evans born 1833, licensed 1859, retired 1898. (Date of death not recorded)
The next William Evans before him has no recorded date of birth, but was licensed in 1835 and died in 1852 (when Margaret Evans would have been aged about two).
The only other two William Evanses in the LPS records and alive in 1850 were born respectively in 1842 and 1843 (and therefore too young for fatherhood in 1850).
Hope this helps.
Best,
BY
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Thank you BY for kindly replying so promptly. I'm starting to think perhaps my ancestor lied about her father's occupation as I can't find a family in a census 1851 to 1871 that match.
Kind regards,
Tony.
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Hi Tony
I'd be inclined to have a closer look at the William EVANS licensed in 1835/died in 1852 before writing him off completely.
The 1851 Census has this household :-
131 Bedford Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
William EVANS, 37, widower, pilot, AGY Holyhead
Elizabeth, sister, U, 39, housekeeper, AGY Holyhead
Catherine, daughter, 10, LAN Liverpool
William Owen, son, 6, LAN Liverpool
Richard H, son, 2, LAN Liverpool
Elizabeth EVANS, servant, U, 22, CAE Caernarvon
And the 1841 Census this one :-
Edmund Street, Liverpool
William EVANS, 25, pilot, No (not born in Lancashire)
Margaret, 25, No
Catherine, 7 months, Yes
Lancashire BMD has this marriage
1839
Liverpool St David (the 'Welsh' church)
William EVANS and Margaret JONES
The Liverpool St David Parish Registers have these baptisms :-
4 December 1840
Catherine, daughter of William & Margaret EVANS, pilot, Edmund Street
23 September 1852 (born 19 September 1844)
William Owen, son of William & Margaret EVANS, pilot, Ray Street
Somewhat perplexingly, there's also this baptism :-
17 January 1847
Liverpool St Paul
William Owen, son of William & Margaret EVANS, pilot, Ray Street
It looks as though pilot William EVANS' wife Margaret died not long before the 1851 Census - possibly whilst (or shortly after) giving birth to your 2 x great-grandmother named after her.
The Pilot Character Book in the Merseyside Maritime Museum Archives should list all the children of the above William EVANS, pilot, who died in 1852. If the list includes a Margaret as well as a Catherine, William Owen and Richard Henry, then this William EVANS will almost certainly be your 3 x great-grandfather.
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Hi again, Tony
As a matter of interest, did your 2 x great-grandmother Margaret EVANS marry carter Samuel JONES on 15 August 1870 in New Brighton St James?
And was Samuel (b1848 New Brighton) living with his widowed mother Elizabeth at the Bathing Master's House in Liscard in the 1851 Census?
And with step-father Robert ROBINSON in Magazine Lane, Liscard, in 1861?
If so, then both your 2 x great-grandparents feature in my extended family tree, although it's unlikely you and I will prove to be blood-related.
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Hi glenburn,
Thank you for the detailed information. Yes Samuel is my 2x great-grandfather and I believe the address in the 1851 census may be, 'Bathing Machine House'. I have been able to trace Margaret from 1871 until her death in 1921 but tracing her prior to 1871 is proving very difficult.
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Hi Tony
Margaret EVANS would have been almost new-born in 1851, and with her mother dead & father widowed would no doubt have been placed into care somewhere when the Census was taken that year.
If BOTH her biological parents had died by 1852 (as seems to be the case) then in the 1861 Census she'd have been either in an orphanage or living with foster parents who'd have quite likely described her as their own daughter and listed her under their own surname.
Do you perhaps have the names of witnesses to the 1870 New Brighton St James marriage, just in case these give a clue as to her family? If one of them is a Catherine then you could be almost there.
PS. I believe the 1851 address DOES read Bathing Machine House, as you've suggested.
I'm patently overdue a visit to Specsavers. :-)
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Hi glenburn,
I think I will take your advice and make arrangements to look at the Pilot Character Book in the Merseyside Maritime Museum Archives.
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Hi Dave I am very new to all of this so please bear with me having spent all of my life at sea ( joined RN at 14 in 1963 I've spent all my life at sea 12 years submarines and 25 years diving in the North sea before moving into diving management mainly at sea middle east) now finding a bit more time on my hands doing some family research.
My father passed away when I was 10 years old, mum when I was 16 and in the middle east so I know very little of family history but what I have found out amazes me!
So here we go my GG granfather was Thomas Evans Magazine Lifeboat coxn (2 silver medal) his son William1Silver medal born 1841 Liverpool pilot and so many other Liverpool pilot in my family tree I find I hard to Belive I know from your site you will place them and fast. One of the the reasons I am contacting you about is a George Evans Born In 1854 son of Henry Evans and Barbara Ledder on the 1871 census he is listed as apprentice Pilot but then disappears from sight do you have any info on him
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Hi pete.e
I may be able to give you some information concerning George EVANS (b1854 Liscard) when we meet up in Wallasey next week. :-)
G
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Hi, Pete and Glenburn,
With apologies for shoving my oar in, the only William Evanses in the LPS list at the time you mention are
(i) Born1833 Licensed 1859 Retired 1898
(ii) Born1842 Licensed 1866 Retired 1873
(iii) Born 1843 Licensed 1866 Retired 1903 Died 1906.
- But no William Evans born 1841.
Putting all of that together with the relevant family records, there is clearly scope for error somewhere, not least in the LPS list. Any correction/clarification would be most welcome.
No doubt nicknames came into it, too. (Must have done, to distinguish one from another in everyday chatter!)
Very best,
BY
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Hi BY
Thanks for your input - much appreciated.
Pete's great-grandfather is undoubtedly the third William EVANS of those you've identified.
Despite what it says in the LPS he was born in Liscard on 30 December 1841 and baptised on 13 February 1842 in Wallasey St Hilary.
When he died in October 1906 his age was given as 64.
PS. Pete and I are in fact fourth cousins.
Best regards
G
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Very many thanks, GB.
I will amend.
Best,
BY
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Hello glenburn,
I was wondering if you could look up my great uncle, mum always said he was the youngest person to take a ship out of the Mersey.
He was Gerald Newman Dodwell born 15/10/1898 in Rock Ferry, Birkenhead. He died in 1972.
He was in the Merchant Navy during WW1 so I don't know if he had time to become a pilot.
Am I right in thinking that fishermen on the Mersey sometimes qualified as pilots?
My Great grandfather Michael Stephen O'Brien Born 15/2/1840 Bootle, Lancashire, England was a fisherman.
Thank you so much for sharing this information and giving your time to us all it is very much appreciated.
Anne
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Dear Anne,
My apologies for any intrusion, but neither Dodwell nor O'Brien are names which appear in the List of Pilots.
As to how anybody (including a fisherman) might ever have qualified as a pilot, between 1766 and 1988 there was only one route of qualification; and that was by serving an apprenticeship of at least five years in a pilot-cutter. The only exception was during WWII, when a number of coastal shipmasters were appointed as temporary pilots to assist in the war effort, but otherwise the formal apprenticeship was the only route during the dates which you mention.
Hope this helps. GB might perhaps have further personal/family information on the basis of names. The extended family of the Pilot Service is very large!
v best,
BY
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Dear BY,
Thank you so much for your prompt reply. That has put to rest one family query and one misconception. Always pleased to receive new information.
Thank you again. I may have addressed my request to the wrong person, sorry.
Regards'
Anne
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Dear Anne
No apology necessary!
GB has much more information re the extended family than I have.
Good hunting!
BY
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Hi is it possible to get a lookup for Thomas Young, Pilot around 1766?
many thanks
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Hi, Martin,
The records confirm that a T Young was granted a Licence in 1766. JS Rees (History of the Liverpool Pilotage Service, 1949) tells us the he "subsequently drowned".
Further information is that a Licence was also granted to a second T Young in 1780. The records show that in 1824, the Executors of Thomas Young, Master Pilot, deceased, were part-owners of the pilot-cutter ISAAC. Whether "Thomas Young, Master Pilot, deceased" was the first T Young (licensed 1766) or the second T Young (licensed 1780) is not clear.
John Young was granted a Licence in 1768 and died at sea in 1770. JS Rees tells us that he died in the wreck of the pilot cutter TWO BROTHERS on the West Hoyle bank. With others, he took to the boarding-punt and tried unsuccessfully to reach the Point of Air. He lost his life in trying to make it to safety.
Joseph Young was granted a Licence in 1759.
Hope this might help.
Best,
BY
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Thanks BY. It gives me something to chew over. The first Thomas Young certainly had a son of the same name although I had him down as a boat builder. Will have a think on.
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Hi,
Happy New year to all. Returning to research I have recently ordered a death cert for Joseph Martin (died 1893). born 1833. Occupation on death cert is listed as pilot.(Our Joseph Martin was dismissed from service in 1879) I'm trying to establish whether there was more than one Joseph Martin b 1833 listed on the Liverpool pilot lists. A process of elimination. Hope you can help.
Regards
Jan
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Hi, Jan,
Happy New Year ! - but sadly there is an error, somewhere.
There are several Martins in LPS records, but no Martin (at all) born in 1833, leaving in 1879 or dying in 1893.
The nearest (chronologically) are the following two (which are so similar that they also suggest an error, somewhere):-
Martin, T (i) Born 1825, licensed 1842, retired 1880, died 1882
Martin, T (ii) Born 1825, licensed 1844, retired 1880. died 1882
But there is no record of a Joseph Martin or a J Martin whose dates fit anywhere near those which you mention.
There are, however, the following other names:-
G Martin
JAE Martin
JR Martin
James Martin (x2)
John Martin (x2)
but all are of substantially different dates.
Hope this might help. Do you have a date for which your Joseph Martin might have been issued with a licence? Or any other information as to his career? It is possible (just) that he might be missing from the LPS records.
Best,
BY
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With the greatest respect, BY, the appendix to your own book contains a Joseph MARTIN born 1833, licensed 1854, retired 1879 - which is surely Jan's ancestor?
NB. I attempted to set out some of the MARTIN pilot familes in my post of 10 January 2011 (on page 23).
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GB
Boing!!!
My profuse apologies!! So it does. I was quoting from another version of the List and, plainly, that is where the error lies. It is entirely mine.
The answer to Jan's question, therefore, is that there is a Joseph Martin of the dates which she quotes, but only one.
My repeated apologies - and thanks for pointing it out.
BY
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Thanks BY and GB for your help on this.(and on all previous requests) The fact that there are no other Joseph Martins, helps in establishing I have the right one.
Jan
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I am trying to find information on Captain Thomas Davies who was captain of the No 2 Pilot Boat in Liverpool probably around 1860/70
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There is a record of a T. Davies who was born 1817, licensed 1836 and died in 1873.
The dates would fit, but I regret that I've no other details of his career. Merseyside Maritime Museum will in all probability have further detail.
Hope this helps,
BY
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Thanks very much, that was very helpful
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Hello to all, especially Archlightzero, Glenburn, Davecigar, and Vansager.
I am new to this site. I found it after I became interested in Capt. Harry Evans,(1864-1938). I'm excited to say, I may possess the "Smoking Gun" as to whether Capt. Evans actually took a ride on Titanic.
My mother and W.W.(Bill) Evans, Harry Evans' son, were friends. They got to know one another when they lived in the Santa Cruz, Ca. area and stayed in touch after both moved away. They corresponded via U.S. Mail between 1990 and 1992 when he was living in Salt Lake. He spoke of his father being a Commodore Pilot and doing work for White Star Line, but never actually said he was on Titanic. In two of Bills letters though, he apologetically explained that he ran out of typing paper, and wrote them on, GET THIS, Titanic letterhead!
She, of course, saved these letters, and now I want to verify that they are original letterhead from Titanic, so I am working with an auction house that has handled the authentic article. It has the red White Star banner and next to it, the words, "on board H.M.S. Titanic". If Capt. Evans had authentic letterhead in his possession, he probably got them on the ship. Another letter was sent on stationery that has a photo of two ships, #2"Liverpool Pilot", and "Hoperange".
If any of Mr. Evans' family would like to read these letters, I can scan and e-mail them. Just send me your e-mail address.
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Hi, Cellarrat,
A starting point which would help in your quest for verification of the notepaper is whether it describes the ship as "HMS Titanic" or whether it shows "RMS Titanic". If it shows "H.M.S. Titanic" (as you indicate), then sadly it will not be authentic.
HMS = Her Majesty's Ship
RMS = Royal Mail Ship
They are two very different things.
Good luck.
BY
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My mistake, it is R.M.S. I looked up the letter from Titanic that was just sold at auction and it looks identical to that. You wouldn't think it could be an original printing of the letterhead, but stranger things have happened, so I'm going to follow it up.
Thanks!
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Good luck!
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Hello
I have discovered that two of my ancestors were river Mersey pilots . Thomas Martin ( born approx 1829) and his father John Martin . Could anybody help with information please ,
Many thanks .
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Hi, Caring,
The records show
Martin, T (i) Born 1825 licensed 1842 retired 1880 died 1882.
A second entry shows identical dates for Martin, T (ii), except that the second name is shown as having been licensed in 1844. (It sounds like a clerical error somewhere; but solid evidence of the life of T. Martin at the time.)
There is a John Martin, born 1803, licensed 1822, died 1842:
also an older John Martin, licensed 1773, retired 1822 and died 1831.
Altogether there eleven Martins recorded as having served, the last one having died in 1916.
Hope this helps. For further information, do please try Merseyside Maritime Museum (where the original records are held).
Best wishes,
BY
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Thank you so much , I will definitely visit the Maritime Museum .
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Re the John Martins, there is this in the Liverpool Mercury for Friday, July 25th 1834:
"Same day " (Wednesday last ) " aged 74, Mary, the widow of John Martin, pilot of this port"
Same paper, December 20th 1853:
Deaths: "Dec 4 Ann Jane, eldest daughter of the late John Martin, master pilot"
and on September 20th 1856:
Deaths: "Sept 14 suddenly aged 28, John Martin, pilot of this port"
October 6th 1856:
Births: "Oct 2nd, the widow of John A Martin pilot, of a son"
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This is great stuff , thanks a lot .
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Hi, Hope someone can help. I am tracing my husbands family tree and we know that various ancestors were pilots on the Mersey. The surname is Bird. I am looking for detail on George Bird, born approx 1844, and his sons William and Matthew Neill. Georges father and grandfather were also pilots I think, first name starts with a T - may be Thomas Bird, although this info is from a very poor copy of a census return and the initial may be T or I. Any help or guidance will be gratefully received. Thanks in anticipation, :) Polly
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Hi Polly,
G.Bird born 1843, licenced 1864, died 1898.
M N Bird born 1871, licenced 1898, retired 1935, died 1947.
W Bird born 1870, licenced 1896, retired 1939, died 1939.
All Liverpool Pilots.
There are two T Birds on the list as well.
T Bird (1) No birth date, licenced 1820, retired 1850, died 1853. G Bird's father perhaps ?
T Bird (2) Born 1835, licenced 1856 and died 1870 presumably whilst still a working Pilot. G Bird's brother?
Were they all the same family? Food for thought!
Will try and find more info for you.
In the meantime MMM have records of their pilotage career in the Pilot Character Book.
Best regards,
Dave
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I visited the Maritime Museum last week to research Thomas Martin , Mersey Pilot , and the information in the character book is excellent.
Thank you all for taking the trouble to assist me and for pointing me in the right direction for further information.
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Dave, Thanks you so much for this info, I assume from the info in the post below yours that MMM is the Mersey Martime Museum, in Liverpool? Could anyone say if you have to prebook to view these records or if you can just call in, is it open every day? Thanks again all for the help. :D
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Hi Polly
You'll find information as regards visiting times, booking-in etc at :-
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/visitarchive.aspx
Note that it's the Archives you want, not the Museum.
Good luck
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Hi Polly,
More info for you.
Thomas Bird (1) I don't think 1820 refers to his birth date, possibly the date he joined the Service. In 1826 he was listed as a member of Pilot Boat No 7 'George Canning' built in 1817. He died in service (DIS) in 1853 of debility.
Thomas Bird (2) born 1835.
In 'Returns Relating to Pilots and Pilotage' (RRPP) for the year 1854 he was a Pilot Apprentice on Pilot Boat No 10. This could either have been the 'smack' 'Town of Liverpool', built in 1835 by Thos Royden of Liverpool (google his name, very interesting) or the schooner 'Criterion' which was built in 1854 by Thos Harvey & Sons of Ipswich and replaced the 'Town of Liverpool'.
In RRPP for 1863 he's aged 28, a licenced Pilot restricted to pilot vessels up to 250 tons and still attached to No 10. It was normal for apprentices to be licenced in easy stages whilst they gained the appropriate experience to become a 1st class Pilot licenced to pilot vessels of any size. The stages were 250, 500 and 1000 tons. Thomas DIS in 1870. It's possible that his record in the PCB at the MMM will give more detail.
George Bird born 1843.
In RRPP for 1863 he's aged 20 and an Apprentice on No 9, the schooner 'Guide' built in 1862 by J C Gibson of Ramsey, IOM.
In RRPP for 1870, aged 27 he was licenced to pilot vessels up to 500 tons and still attached to No 9.
In RRPP for 1895, aged 52 he is a Pilot of the 1st Class and on No 2, the schooner 'Leader' built in 1856 by Thos Harvey. He DIS in 1898. There is a studio photograph of him in the Norman Morrison Collection at the MMM.
William Bird born 1870.
In RRPP for 1895 aged 25, he is a Boathand (Apprentice) on No1, the schooner 'Queen' built in 1856 by Michael Ratsey of Cowes, IOW. She was sunk in a collision with the s/s Sailor Prince on 10th May 1891. She was salvaged, re-commissioned and then withdrawn in May 1898 and replaced by steam.
NB: In 1896 the first steam pilot boats were built, the start of a new era although the Pilots themselves had resisted the advent of steam since 1883 when Mersey Docks and Harbour Board purchased all the sailing pilot vessels.
William was licenced in 1896 and in RRPP for 1900 and 1906 he was a 1st Class Pilot attached to No3 steam pilot boat 'Queen Victoria' built by Murdock & Murray in Glasgow.
In 1917 aged 47 he was appropriated to Cunard Line to pilot their ships. Later he was also appropriated to Cunard White Star line and Anchor Line and I quote "despite numerous (11) accidents on their vessels until retirement". He retired in 1935 aged 65 (not many worked to that age and lived to retire!) and died in 1939
Matthew Neil Bird born 1871.
In RRPP for 1895 aged 24, he is a Boathand on No7, the schooner 'Lancashire Witch' built by Michael Ratsey in 1863 and withdrawn in 1896 in favour of steam.
In RRPP for 1900, aged 29 he is a 2nd Class Pilot probably restricted to 2000 tons.
In RRPP for 1906, aged 35 he is a 1st Class Pilot licenced to pilot any size of vessel. On both dates he was attached to No 4 SPB 'David Fernie',( built 1898 in Glasgow), along with my grandfather, although he was only an apprentice (boathand) at the time.
That's all I can find in my records.
Regards
Dave
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I am seeking information from the Tebay book on the Bridge family, ships pilots, all born Liverpool.
Henry Bridge c1796-1864
Edward Bridge c1799-1870
George Bridge 1824-1907
Henry Bridge licensed 1843 died 1851
Mark Nelson Bridsge 1820-1892
William Brew Bridge 1843 - 1905
I had some help from Celia some years ago when she accessed some records from the Maritime Museum, and I now have a copy of the book " Beyond The Bar" by Barry Youde,(and am happy to do lookups from it ) but wonder if there is anything further in the Tebay book.
thank you
Marienne
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There is a look up for Joseph and George Davies,
both Liverpool pilots,circa 1840-1880 I assume,
can you look them up please,
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Hi,
From 'Beyond The Bar':
23 Davies in total.
Davies J.H. licensed 1849, died at sea 1858
Davies Geo, licensed1833, retired 1850
Davies Jos, licensed 1848, died 1885.
The Liverpool Maritime museum will have these pilots records which include lots of family details, but you need someone
to do those on site.
Good Luck
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Hi ozranga,
Thankyou very much for that - you are very kind and I'm very grateful,
James
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What a great resource!
I am looking for information on William Morris. I have scant information.
On his son John's marriage cert issued in 1881 at St. Nicholas church in Liverpool, he is listed as a pilot. John was 41 at the time, so using that as a base, I'm guessing William would have been born no later than 1820.
On his marriage cert, John was a mariner, but showed up in London in 1895 as a ship's egineer so obviously he never became a pilot.
I live in Mexico so a trip to the museum is not on the cards. So I be deeply appreciative of any help.
Thanks
Angela
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Hi Angela,
Sorry but there is no William Morris listed in the book.
Of those listed we have:
H. licensed 1839 retired 1844
J Snr. licensed 1835 died 1837
J Jnr. born 1819, licensed 1841, retired 1871 died 1871
J.A. born 1919, lic 1943, ret 1981, died 1982
R. lic 1832, died 1833 at sea.
Gores 1860 directory has 2 x William Morris, Mariner, at: 119 Portland Street , and 7 Richard Street Everton.
good luck.
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Appreciate the quick response. Disappointed not to get an easy answer from the pilots, but will press on. Didn't know about the Gores directory until now, so thanks for that lead.
Angela
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Re Angela's query, there is a press report from 1822 (Lancaster Gazette, 4 May 1822, loss of the Sandwich packet) which mentions William Morris, a pilot, at Dale, in Pembrokeshire.
There was another pilot of that name at Maldon in Essex, born 1790 who is in the censuses but he doesn't seem to have had a son John
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Thanks, ShaunJ. The one in Essex might be worth my persuing because John ended up down South and I haven't been able to figure out why. The William Morris you found could possibly have been his grandfather. If he was born in 1790, John's father William could have been born 1820ish and John in 1840. However, I've learned that extrapolating is not a good idea (!) but I will check this out.
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Hi Marienne...I am from this same Bridge family ....how could we get in touch? Cheers Allie Bridge.
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New to this forum so not sure how to post a new item but here goes anyway.
Looking for information on my Grandfather, Samuel Jones, Husband of Sarah ( nee Lovelady ) who resided at the family home of Silverdale in Liverpool.
He was a Mersey River Pilot from approx. 1930 till the late 40's. Toward the end of his career I understand he was Chief Pilot.
Any information would be appreciated.
njones68/Canada
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Hi, Njones,
The name Sam Jones is certainly known in the Pilot Service and there is more than one S Jones in the list - but the last one retired in 1937, after holding a licence for thirty-nine years. He might well have been Senior Pilot at that time. He was born in 1872. Is this the man you mean?
He is shown as having died in 1945, aged 73, and therefore long past any active service by that time
Best,
BY
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Thx for the reply, this may well be him as the dates are close.
Will do some more research.
njones68/Canada
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Hi,
Kellys Directory Liverpool 1938 has :
Samuel Jones, Silverdale, Courthey Avenue Liverpool. Second master on the pilot steamer Number 1 "Charles Livingston"
cheers
Marienne
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Thank you, Ozranga!
My own time in the Pilot Service was from 1959 (as a sixteen year old apprentice) until 1988.
Njones will I hope be interested to hear that during that period the name Sammy Jones was well remembered, particularly by way of a landing-place identified on the rocks near Amlwch, Anglesey, which was know in the Pilot Service as "Sammy Jones' Creek". I never did see the place marked on any chart by that name but, for sure, the name was well known.
The landing place might even have taken its name from an earlier Sammy Jones, I simply don't know. But, yes, the name was well known!
For all I know, even the name "Sammy Jones' Creek" might have been mythical (rather like "Davy Jones' Locker") as I was never sure of its exact location. The name, though, was certainly a part of pilotage folk-lore.
Hope this might help.
BY
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Hi njones68
Just as well your Samuel JONES wasn't on board the CHARLES LIVINGSTON on the night of 26th November 1939, when she met such a tragic, ignominious end off Ainsdale - an incident which claimed the life of one of my own relatives Thomas Ledsham EVANS :-
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/pilotboat1.html
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and my grandfather Thomas W R Cockram.
Dave
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Hello and thank you for your kind offer of help. I am trying to trace a William Walker Webster, who was a pilot according to the Kelly's Directory for 1894. He lived in Obherhof, Tobin Street, Egremont. He went on to submit plans for building a house on the bottom end of Tobin Street. I understand his wife at the time was considerably younger than him, thanks Jess ;D
-
very sorry, Jess.
Records to hand show no Webster holding a licence in 1894.
There was a CW Webster who was first licensed in 1899 aged 24. He died in 1926.
Might this fit?
Good hunting.
BY
-
Hi
there are 7 Websters in 'Beyond The Bar'
JG born 1924 lic 1948 died 1988
CE b1906 Lic 1933 d 1952
CW b 1875, L 1899, D 1926
E Lic 1818 D 1833 at sea
PJ B1929, L1953, D1982
TH B1883, L 19085, D1958
W Lic 1812, D 1833 at sea
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i have a 4th great grandfather john wild 1797 and his son in law Thomas miller who were pilot's on the mersey, i am lead to believe john run a ground a ship. can anyone shed any light
regards
julie
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Hi,
"Beyond the Bar" has:
Miller T,born 1835, licenced 1855, retired 1869, died 1870
Wilde J, licenced 1818, retired 1860, died 1864 .
merry christmas
-
Hi,
"Beyond the Bar" has:
Miller T,born 1835, licenced 1855, retired 1869, died 1870
Wilde J, licenced 1818, retired 1860, died 1864 .
merry christmas
Merry Christmas and thanks Ozranga do have that info and book, it is the running aground a ship i think called Giovanni? I think i need a trip to MMM. all the best.
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Hi,
My ggrandfather was a fireman on the pilot boats out Liverpool in the late 1890s to 1903.How can i find information about his working life on the boats.
-
If you give me his name I can look in the book I have, but the Merseyside Maritime Museum has details on the Pilots and their employment and families pensions etc.
-
Thank you for the help.
His name was,James Crosbie.
-
Hi,
he is not listed in 'Beyond The Bar' maybe because he was a fireman, not a pilot. I would still try the Merseyside Maritime Museum though.
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Hi Ozranga,
Thank you for your help.
I have contacted the Museum and unfortunately i have to visit them to view any records. As i don't live in Liverpool it would be difficult for me to visit.
Thank you again for your help.
Wafer
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I am looking for information on my Ancestor William Evans.
He obtained his Master Mariner's certificate number 73562 on 3rd March 1858. He was born in Runcorn in 1813. On the 1861 census he was living in Liverpool and was a Master Mariner, river boat. Could he have been a pilot on the river Mersey? All help anyone can offer very gratefully received.
-
Do you have a copy of your ancestor's APPLICATION for his master's certificate?
If it has survived, this should list all vessels on which he served for four years prior to his application.
-
Hi,
although there are 5 W Evans listed in "Beyond The Bar" none of them fit your William's birth or licencing details, sorry.
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Hi Peter, did your father live in Kilgraston Gardens, Liverpool? I have been tracing the history of our house and wondered if your father was the Rupert Nicholls named on the title deeds.
Regards
Debbie
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Dear Silverscouser,
I think I live now in your childhood home as a Rupert Nicholls is on the title deeds and I have been told he worked on the River as a Pilot.
It would be lovely to hear from you as I am very interested in the history of our home.
Regards
Debbie
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Thank you for info posted re Ledder pilots, (which squashed a myth in my family) If you find a family link to Edward Ledder let me know please he is in my Shepherd family tree and I can provide details I have.
-
Hi,
Beyond The Bar has:
Nicholls R, born 1905, Licenced 1935, Died 1960.
Ozranga
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Hi folks,
I'm a newbie here so hi to all!!
I'm looking for any info on a David Williams (b1782 maybe in Liverpool, d1824 in Dundalk, Ireland) who may have been working in and around Liverpool around the 1800 as a mariner / captain.
I believe that there is a David Williams mentioned earlier in this thread working as a pilot. Can anyone give me details?
All the best,
Ewillywinky!!
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hi,
"Beyond The Bar" by Barry Youde has:
Williams D licenced 1794.
There is no birth, retirement or death date so if your bloke did move away this may be him
cheers
Ozranga
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Thanks for that Ozranga.
But if I have my dates right that would make him 12 when he was licenced. Does licensed mean that he was entitled to guide a ship into port? I would have said that even by their standards that an age of at least 22 would be required...
Thanks for your help but probably barking up the wrong tree!
Best regards,
Ewillywinky
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Hi,
I thought about that too.
A boy wishing to become a pilot had to apply when he was aged 16 and still at school. He would then appear before a Selection Committee, and if successful would then join a crew after his schooling was over and wait for a vacancy to arise, which could take 2 years or more. If after 3 years a vacancy had not arisen, his name was taken off the list forever.
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Hi Davecigar,
I'm trying to find information about an uncle of mine who was a pilot on the Mersey River.
His name was Charles A Dean. DOB 13 May 1906 and he died on 14 November 1960
His wife's name was Florence and he had a daughter. She is still alive.
Any information that anyone can supply would be most welcome.
Sid
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Hi Sid,
Beyond The Bar by Barrie Youde has:
Dean C.A. born 1905. licenced 1928. died 1960.
there are 6 other Deans listed.
Kellys Direcory 1938 has :
List of Licenced Pilots. First Class Rotary. Charles A Dean. 101 Belvidere Road Wallasey.
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Wow! That was quick!
Thank you very much for that information.
Much appreciated.
Sid
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Charles A Dean. DOB 13 May 1906
Findmypast has a 1921 Merchant Navy registration card for Charles Alexander Dean born Seacombe 13 May 1905 - with a photograph
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Can anyone shed any light for me, please, on the service of THOMAS WILLIAM QUIRK, b. 1827, who was a Mersey Pilot Mariner from at least 1851 until at least 1871? By 1881 he had become an Officer of the Board of Trade in Liverpool, and continued as such until at least 1891. I am not sure when he died. His great grandson recalls seeing in his youth a faded sepia photo of a large schooner with P1 on the sail, which may have been the vessel he served on. Thanks for any help.
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Hi,
Beyond The B ar by Barry Youde has:
Quirk T (1). Licenced 1809, retired 1835 died 1840
Quirk T (2). Born 1827, licenced 1850, retired 1871, died 1893
there is also a J QUirk who was licenced in 1826.
:)
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Hi Ozranga -
Many thanks for the quick reply and very helpful information on Thomas William Quirk. Quirk T (2) is the man, clearly, but I must look into the other two Quirks you mention. My immediate thought is that Quirk T (1) may be an uncle and Quirk J a brother or cousin of Thomas William. (I have his father as Michael Quirk, a tailor and draper of 34 Bedford Street, Toxteth, b. 1805 in Isle of Man, and his mother Mary Anne Stanistreet, born in Chester 1803, d. 1 Mar 1876.
:)
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Hi,
Liverpool Gores Directory of 1860 has :
Michael Quirk, Tailor, 64 Bedford St Toxteth Park
Michael Quirk Tailor, 12 Lower thurlow St
Thomas Wiliam Quirk, Pilot , 1 Luton Grove, Walton Road.
Thomas is not listed as being a Master of a pilot vessel for that year, although crew were not listed.
The Liverpool Maritime Museum has all the Pilots records.
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Hi
Thanks for the further information on Thomas William Quirk. My "immediate thought" on your previous post, was obviously wrong, on further reflection. Date-wise, Quirk T (1) may be the grandfather of Thomas William Quirk, and Quirk J may be his uncle, the latter born within a year or two of Thomas William Quirk's father, Michael (assuming Quirk J was in his early twenties when licensed in 1826). This would explain how Thomas William Quirk, the son of a tailor, became a pilot mariner - following in the footsteps of his grandfather and uncle. (I noticed a tick on the census returns for Michael Quirk to indicate that he was born 'blind, deaf or mute' - presumably he was one of the latter two, and hence unfitted for work as a pilot, becoming instead a tailor.
It looks like a visit to the Liverpool Maritime Museum Archives would shed more light.
Thanks again for the help. Much appreciated.
:)
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Looking for any information on Mersey pilot William Jones born in Liverpool 1825 and died in 1903.
Thanks
Glenburn, should you read this I have reason to believe that this William Jones is a grandson of Peter Jones and Elizabeth Hughes, he possibly being a son of their son John Jones who was born in 1800.
Regards
Gail
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Hi
There are 12 W Jones in Beyond The Bar by Barry Youde.
Your William (number 10) was born 1825, licenced 1849, Retired 1886. no death date noted here.
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Many thanks ozranga it is much appreciated.
Gail
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Hi to all,
I am new to the site, so apologies if I am "posting" in the wrong place! but here goes.
My ancestor, William Evans, born Runcorn 1813 was a Master Mariner, riverboats. His "ticket" number is 73562 gained 3rd March 1858 after thirty years service Coasting.
Any information about him would be very much appreciated. I have him, his wife Ann and children living in Toxteth Park in 1861 census. He then disappears from UK records. Just pops up once marrying for a second time an Elizabeth Quirk aged 21 years, in Liverpool in June 1868. No death record for him that I can find in UK. Did they go to America?
All help much appreciated.
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Not sure if you can help, but I'm trying to track down more about a John HUGHES. He was variously described on Census records as Pilot (App) in 1861, Pilot or Liverpool Pilot in 1871 & 1881. I can't find him after that, nor can I find a death. He married Elizabeth ? c1860 - she was born c1842. John HUGHES was born in Liscard c1837, the son of John and Ruth, and always seems to have lived there
Steve
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Steve, Re John Hughes ... I can see him in the 1891, 1901 and 1911 censuses in Rowson Street
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Thanks Shaun,
I've found him now in the later Census now - hoping for more detail from "Beyond the Bar"
Steve
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In "Beyond The Bar " there is a J Hughes born 1836, qualified 1860, retired 1906, died 1912
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Per the Probate Calendar, John Hughes, pilot, died 3 October 1912 at Poplar Cottage, Rowson Street. Admin (with Will) granted in 1918 to William Edward Hughes.
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Thanks Shaun,
That's the chap. I appreciate your help. I assume I might find out more about him by visiting the Liverpool Museum archive
Steve
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Steve,
Yes I understand there's lots of stuff on pilots at the Maritime museum. See http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/info-sheet.aspx?sheetId=68
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apologies if I am "posting" in the wrong place! but here goes
Liverbird 50 - I'm afraid the Mersey pilot records won't be any help to you. I don't think your William Evans was a Mersey pilot.
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I am carrying out a 'Who do you think you are ?' exercise on the Chairman of our local Hard of Hearing Society. Two of her direct ancestors, Edward Fletcher Callister and William Brown(e) were living in Liverpool/Tranmere for the 1861 census and give their occupations as 'Pilot". do they appear in this list ??
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E.F.Callistor is listed as born 1815; licensed in 1837; retired 1872 and died 1887.
W.Brown licensed 1852; ret'd 1891; died 1904
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Brilliant, many thanks !
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Hi,
I've only just come across your kind offer - hope its still valid ?
I am interested in an ancestor Richard Henry Richmond. He stated he was a pilot on his wedding certificate in 1860. I have him in all census until his death in 1914. He married a pilots daughter Martha Lester, father Thorley Lester.
Are these 2 listed in your information ?
Thanks
Bob
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Richard Henry Richmond
R. Richmond born 1838, licensed 1860, retired 1887 no death date
Thorley Lester
There are 3 of that name:
1 lic 1809 died 1858
2 born 1815 lic 1834 died ?
3 born 1837 lic 1861 ret 1898 died 1900
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Thanks Shaun, appreciated.
Blimey, 3 Thorley Lesters !! Must have been a popular name once.
Cheers
Bob
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3 Thorley Lesters !! Must have been a popular name once.
I suspect they were related. There's also a Thomas Lester and a W Lester, both licensed in 1784
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Gordon
Many thanks. Your comments are very helpful and I'll try to get to the MMM to see what they have on him at some point in the future.
You have put another piece of the jigsaw into my family history as he is my gg grandfather.
Edward
Thank you very much for this information as well. Samuel Howson Jones is my ggg grandfather. It's very exciting to be able to put together another piece of the puzzle.
Laura
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On the Liverpool Town Hall WW1 roll of honour there is an entry for the following:
WRIGHT, 1ST CL.PILOT, P.
I would like to clarify this entry and think he may have been a Mersey Pilot, as all the names should have a Liverpool connection. Nothing is shown in the column for ship/unit.
Any suggestions, please?
Ainslie
Added - I have solved this - he was NOT a Mersey Pilot but an aviator.
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I am looking into my "Morgan" family history. Many of my Morgan ancestors were Coastguards or had sea related careers. Nicholas Morgan (think he is my great uncle) was a Master Pilot in the Liverpool Mersey Pilots. Nicholas was born between 1862 and 1864 in Killowen. Co Down and is recorded as an apprentice pilot in the 1881 UK census. Just wondering if your records shed anymore light?
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Morgan, N:
Born 1862
Licensed 1884
Retired 1921
Died 1931
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Morgan, N:
Born 1862
Licensed 1884
Retired 1921
Died 1931
Many thanks
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Just a reminder to researchers that there is a lot of information on individual pilots to be found in the Liverpool Maritime Archives & Library http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/sheet/65
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Hi Gail,
I am related to these people, and would like to exchange information.
Kind regards,
David
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Hi
im trying to find any information i can about my Grandfather.
His name was Albert Strange and was a pilot on the Mersey up to his death around 1955. (probably joined the service around the early 1930's)
would appreciate any info you have
Thanks!
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Hi Johnny.
Beyond The Bar has:
Strange A. Born 1919, licenced 1941, died 1954.
there are 3 other Strange entries.
A.V. (HSA) born 1888, lic 1915, Retired 1949, died 1959
J.O. born 1855, lic 1876, retd 1917, died 1924
L. born 1917, licd 1940, retd 1982, died 1991
hope this helps.
Marienne
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I have been researching all those who perished on the Alfred H Read. I have a newspaper article regarding the sinking published 24th January 1918. According to this report out of the 43 on board 41 perished. I have indentified 2 who are not commemorated by CWGC and I have sent them to IFTC. These are
Pilot Edgar Howard Lewis buried Anfield Cemetery 31st December 1917 and also Wireless Operator Jack Reid. I am looking for information on these 2 so any input will be very welcome.
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hi,
Beyond The Bar has:
Lewis E.H. Born 1884, Licenced 1910, died 1918.
no mention of Jack Reid.
Marienne
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Thanks Marianne.
I must have had a senior moment. Its Jack/John Wade I am looking for.
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Also Marianne in the list of names I have an Alexander Donaldson, Pilot is recorded is there anything for him.
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Hi,
no John/Jack Wade.
Donaldson A. Born 1865, Licenced 1888, Retired 1930, died 1954.
cheers
Marienne
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My understanding is that a Marconi Operator was one of only three people saved from the ALFRED H READ - one (a pilot apprentice) succumbing a short time later. So the indications are that Jack REID wasn't in fact lost in the tragedy?
He wouldn't of course have featured as one of 'The Men' in Barry Youde's book anyway, since this lists only qualified Liverpool Pilots.
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The name of the Marconi-Operator saved was Edward Beckett aged 18 61, Cecil Road, West Croyden. Jack Wade is recorded in the Deaths at Sea register BT334 as being on the Alfred H Read. There is also an obituary notice in the Liverpool Echo
Liverpool Echo 31st-Dec-1917
WADE-December 28 Killed on one of H.M. Patrol Ships, Jack-Deeply missed by all friends in Liverpool-Sadly missed by Nancy.
Some one on the Great War Forum has also asked about Jack Wade
Hello
Family stories tell of my Gran's brother (John Wade) being killed when the pilt boat he was on sank in Liverpool docks after being hit by a torpedo / bomb. I have tried, without success, to find any information on John, his boat or whether the family story is in fact true. I have a photo of him and my gran, taken 18 Sept 1916, which was apparently the last time Gran saw him before he was killed. On the back of the photo is John's ship address, and although I can read most of it, one word is illegible. The address is J. Wade, Snr telegraphist, HMXV No. 1, c/o Pilot ??????, Liverpool.
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QUOTE: "c/o Pilot ??????, Liverpool"
Reference the last post here, could the missing word/s be 'Liverpool Pilotage Office?
A
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Hello,
Looking for any info on my ancestor Richard Robinson Cotter born 1844 who was a Liverpool pilot. I know he got into trouble for smoking a pipe on a outbound ship laden with gunpowder. He died in 1889.
Thanks
John
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Hi John,
'Beyond The Bar' has:
Cotter R.R. Born 1843, licenced 1865, died 1889.
(I hope he didn't die of gunpowder burns)
cheers
Marienne
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Cheers for that Marienne. I dont yet know the cause of his early demise. His father Richard Cotter was born about 1821 and was also a mariner. I think he grew up in Ireland so unlikely he was a mersey pilot.
K.R's
John
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Hi If offer still stands I am interested in information re John Bond Mersey River Pilot. born Liverpool 1795 Died 1837. I believe he was given an award for steering ship safely to shore that had lost control.
Victoria
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Hi Victoria,
I have:
Bond J. licenced 1820, died 1832 at sea.
The Maritime museum in Liverpool should have the details of any award, or you could try the Royal Humane Society records.
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Thank You. Much obliged.
Victoria
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Request 2 lookups please. 1. Pilot Robert Williams born about 1799 - wife Harriet and son 2. Edward Williams born 1825 died1844 ( confirm died as apprentice in accident) Any info appreciated.
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Hi
there are 6 x Robert Williams, only one has a birth year; 1813, licenced 1836 retired 1885 died 1889.
the others as follows
1. lic 1790 died 1803
2. lic 1810, died 1849
3. lic 1819 ret 1859 died 1860
5. lic 1837 died 1837
6. lic 1850, ret 1886 died 1891.
Edward does not appear: only pilots are listed.
hope this helps
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Edward Williams born 1825 died 1844 ( confirm died as apprentice in accident)
Edward's death is described in a notice in the Liverpool Mercury of 11th October 1844, page 7. He was an apprentice on Number 5 pilot boat. On the night of August 21st he was in the boat's punt going to another ship off Hoylake in the dark. The punt capsized and he was drowned. He was the only son of Robert Williams, pilot.
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There's a bit more on Edward Williams's death in the Liverpool Mercury of 30th August 1844. page 2. He and others were trying to board a vessel near the Ormsheads when their boat was swamped. All the other crew members were rescued but the body of the unfortunate youth was picked up a week later by two boatmen near the lightship.
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Thank You Shaun J and Ozranga for the prompt replies.
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Could you also look up if there is record for Samuel Dean born abt 1832? Marriage record indicates Pilot. Thanks
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Samuel Dean born abt 1832
The only S. Dean listed was born 1824, licensed 1847, retired 1880, died 1895
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Thank you.
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Are you still doing lookups?
In the 1871 Census William Pennington (or Pinnington) aged 47 of 17 Windermere Street, Liverpool lists his occupation as Pilot No.5. He died in 1874 but as yet I have yet to discover how, did he die of natural causes or an accident at sea? Are there any other details – how long he served as a pilot, name of the boat(s) he worked, where his area of work spanned etc. If he was given any awards etc.
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Pinnington W
Born 1822
Licensed 1846
Retired 1871
Died 1874
There may be a lot more information at the Maritime Museum.
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Hello pedude
The fact that (according to Youde) your W Pinnington retired in 1871 suggests that even if he did die at sea three years later this wouldn't have been in the course of duty (as was unfortunately the case with at least four of my own Liverpool Pilot relatives).
Free BMD has the death of a 50 year-old William PINNINGTON in the December Quarter of 1874, ref West Derby 8b/422. There's no absolute guarantee it's your man, of course, but I'd say it's worth purchasing a copy death certificate from the GRO just in case it is?
As regards your general question, it's been at the back of my mind for some time to get myself over to the Liverpool Maritime Museum to look up some of my own family in the Pilots records. I've made a note of your William PENNINGTON/PINNINGTON and will do my best to fit this one in too if I have time.
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Thanks for the information much appreciated....if you do get to the Liverpool Maritime Museum I'm sure you'll enjoy it...yes if you do please bear me in mind with any additional info. I'm due a visit to Liverpool myself but unfortunately the department I need to visit is only staffed Monday and Tuesday...my visit doesn't coincide with those days.
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William Pinnington, pilot, died at Elstow Street, Kirkdale on 6 December 1874 per the Probate Calendar (administration with will to widow Elizabeth).
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Hi,
Shaun has answered with the info from Beyond the Bar.
Gores directory of 1853 has William Pinnington, Pilot, living at 24 George St, Birkenhead.
Kellys 1860 has William Pinnington at 161 Dale Street, "Earl Grey" (hotel, public house)
He is not listed with the pilots as a Master in 1860.
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The Mersey pilot, Samuel Morris Jones of Silverdale, Liverpool, is also grandfather of Martin Morris Jones, born in Liverpool but now living in Brunei Darussalam. Martin's dad was Harold Morris Jones. Martin knows an uncle went to Canada. We'd love to get in contact with njones if possible.
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William Pinnington, pilot, died at Elstow Street, Kirkdale on 6 December 1874 per the Probate Calendar (administration with will to widow Elizabeth).
Shaun do you have access to records that may help with this - Dublin Medical Press June 22 1859 – Reported that Dr Lamphier SS Nemesis made a contribution towards the Medical Benevolent Fund Society of Ireland. The SS Nemesis was a Laird built ship that launched from Liverpool and was involved in the Opium Wars. It was not per se a military ship but was involved in that conflict. What I am trying to ascertain is the full name of Dr Lamphier, where he was from ( Iknow he was Irish but town/county) and when he served his next of kin - or at least where you might suggest I look for the same information.
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Pedude - we can divine from the news item that your Dr Lamphier was a ship's surgeon on the P&O liner Nemesis.
It's possibly the Dr Richard Lamphier from Cork who was later in practice in Lincolnshire, Born around 1825.
This has nothing to do with Liverpool pilots so you would do better to start a new thread on the common room board.
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Pedude - we can divine from the news item that your Dr Lamphier was a ship's surgeon on the P&O liner Nemesis.
It's possibly the Dr Richard Lamphier from Cork who was later in practice in Lincolnshire, Born around 1825.
This has nothing to do with Liverpool pilots so you would do better to start a new thread on the common room board.
Thanks Shaun...I get what you mean about a different topic too
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By way of confirmation for Pedude - this is from an 1860 medical directory on Google books:
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah154/shaun52/Lamphier%201860_zpsvszvhnx9.png) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/shaun52/media/Lamphier%201860_zpsvszvhnx9.png.html)
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Hello. Came across your 'investigation's' after watching programme on UK television re Mersey river pilots and found out my mother's uncle was Leslie Holmes. Don't know if your still looking into your family roots but William Clifford Holmes was her father. He had two daughters (my mum & auntie who are both still alive). William J's six daughters were Hilda, Rita, Verna, Trixie (Beatrice), Bradbury & Ida. All lived in Wallasey. I know Bradbury was the youngest and worked as a hairdresser on board a ship. Which daughter was your grandmother? If you have any gaps in your family tree, please advise as my mum has a mountain of background info.
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Is it possible to look up age or any other dates for this listing please? Is there any indication how old Samuel Jones was in 1938?
Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
Kellys Directory Liverpool 1938 has :
Samuel Jones, Silverdale, Courthey Avenue Liverpool. Second master on the pilot steamer Number 1 "Charles Livingston"
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Is it possible to look up age or any other dates for this listing please? Is there any indication how old Samuel Jones was in 1938?
Yes - there is a Samuel Jones listed who was born 1872, licensed as a pilot 1898, retired 1937, died 1945.
If you are looking for the family in Court Hey (not Courthey) Avenue in the 1939 register, it might be easier to look for the next-door neighbour William Calrow in Huyton-with-Roby.
The probate calendar for 1945 does list a Samuel Jones of 32 Court Hey Avenue.
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Many thanks for this information. I really appreciate it
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hi dave ,can you tell me anythink on a liverpool pilot called JOHN WILLIAMS ,active around 1860 1890 ,regards maurice
Did you find a pilot JOHN WILLIAMS mentioned in the above message, please?
I am looking for a pilot JOHN WILLIAMS who had a son on 17 May 1866 at Lloyd Street Everton born to Mary Williams (nee Williams). I do not have a date of birth I am afraid.
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hi dave ,can you tell me anythink on a liverpool pilot called JOHN WILLIAMS ,active around 1860 1890 ,regards maurice
Did you find a pilot JOHN WILLIAMS mentioned in the above message, please?
I am looking for a pilot JOHN WILLIAMS who had a son on 17 May 1866 at Lloyd Street Everton born to Mary Williams (nee Williams). I do not have a date of birth I am afraid.
The son was John Owen Williams
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hi dave ,can you tell me anythink on a liverpool pilot called JOHN WILLIAMS ,active around 1860 1890 ,regards maurice
Did you find a pilot JOHN WILLIAMS mentioned in the above message, please?
I am looking for a pilot JOHN WILLIAMS who had a son on 17 May 1866 at Lloyd Street Everton born to Mary Williams (nee Williams). I do not have a date of birth I am afraid.
The son was John Owen Williams
I will be going to Liverpool to make more research but a six hour drive is quite a bit!
Many thanks
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Heyhouse
There are 10 John williams listed in Beyond The Bar, can you give us his birth year?
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Heyhouse
There are 10 John williams listed in Beyond The Bar, can you give us his birth year?
I believe he was born about 1835 / 1845 if there is one roughly then?
Thanks for your speedy reply!
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Hi,
There is John Williams born 1835, licenced 1860, retired 1897, died 1915.
closest on either side are born 1821 & 1841 so I think he's yours
Marienne
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Hi, oops, didn't read your reply properly ::)
The John Williams born 1841 was licenced 1861, retired 1903, died 1913
Sorry
Marienne
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Hi, oops, didn't read your reply properly ::)
The John Williams born 1841 was licenced 1861, retired 1903, died 1913
Sorry
Marienne
Many thanks, Marienne
That has helped a lot
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Does the probate calendar have any details other than a listing of death and address of the person? Does it have a precise date of death? Can you please advise how I access the Liverpool Probate calendar for 1945.
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Hi libbyoc
you've tacked your request onto the bottom of another topic.
You can browse the probate calendars here
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
click on the 1858-1996 tab first and enter the surname and year of death
The pages aren't indexed so you'll have to scroll through until you find the correct page and place.
Make sure you check for upto 5 years after the death as not all probates are proved immediately.
If you find an entry, you can order a copy for £10
If you have an Ancestry subscription, you can search the calendars there upto 1966 as they have been indexed on that site.
You cannot order probates from Ancestry but you can use the information you find there over on the HMCTS site and order direct.
The information varies in the calendars but you will get a full name, address, and exact date of death.
If the word Adminisitration is in the entry, there is no will so unless you need a copy of the grant which names the administrator for legal purposes, save your £10 for something else.
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Dawn, thank you so much for this information. I will begin looking now.
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Your help was invaluable. I found exactly what I wanted very quickly, following your very clear instructions. Thank you again.
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My Great-Grandfather, John Johnson is listed as a pilot on his marriage certificate on 24 Nov 1879. He was aged only 21 at the time, which seems rather young to be a pilot.
In future records (census etc), he is listed as a waterman, boatman, barge boatman or river gig boatman.
This is what I know:
Born 7 Aug 1858 - 40 Dublin Street, Liverpool.
Married Margaret o'Brien 24 Nov 1879. She later died.
Married Emily o'Brien 17 Mar 1895.
He died between 1927 - 1929.
His father, Peter Johnson was a mariner / Seaman / Boatman, born about 1821 and died before 13 Aug 1883 in an accident at the Docks.
I guess that John Johnson learned his trade from his father, and I wonder if Peter Johnson was was a registered Pilot. Peter was married to Hannah (known as Ann). Peter's father was also called Peter Johnson.
John's son, Thomas Johnson (my grandfather) 1906-1981 was a Mersey gig-boatman all of his working life.
Can you find any of the above in the records of pilots?
Ian
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No they are not on the list. There is a J W Johnson born 1859, licensed in 1878, but he died in 1885.
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Thanks Shaun.
Are you aware of any register of Mersey dockside accidents / fatalities?
I'm thinking of Peter Johnson - mariner / Seaman / Boatman, born about 1821 and died before 13 Aug 1883 in an accident at the Docks.
Ian
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Could he have died in 1880? There's a press report of a coroner's inquest on "Peter Johnson, 59 years of age, a boatman, residing at 89, Ashfield-cottages". Killed in an accident in Sandon Dock (Liverpool Mercury 4 November 1880, page 8 )
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Wow - thanks very much for finding that - it has been one of my brick walls for several years.
I took 13 Aug 1883 as the latest date of death as he was shown as deceased on the marriage certificate of another of his sons. His age and occupation match my records (the tale of an accident at the docks is word-of-mouth within the family). Johnson is a fairly common surname; I could not find him or his wife in either the 1871 or 1881 census, and had not heard of that address.
My Ancestry subscription has lapsed, having hit so many brick walls. Is there any way that I can view the press report?
The other Mersey river boatman death in the family that I'm struggling to find is John Johnson, born 7 Aug 1858, and died sometime between 1927 and 1 Apr 1929.
Ian
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Hi
Thanks very much for doing this. I'm wondering if u have any records of my great-great grandfather, Thomas Burchell (1827-91). He was born in Swansea, Wales and from the late 1860's onwards was based at Bootle, Liverpool. He was at sea for most of his working life and I have a no. of records of the ships he was on. He is listed as Mate on some of them and as a Mariner too in a few censuses. A family story is that he was a pilot on the Mersey as well but haven't found any trace of that yet. So I'd be very interested in records you may have of him.
Many thanks
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Thomas Burchell (1827-91).
Hi Tara
I don't see any Burchell on the list of pilots.
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Could someone have a look for a Thomas Ditton?
This is my 5gt-grandfather's marriage license :
1768 26 Nov
Walter Cunningham of Liverpool, mariner & Thomas Ditton of same, pilot
Bond for marriage of Walter Cunningham of Liverpool, mariner aged 25, bach & Elizabeth Ditton of Liverpool, spinster aged 21 and up. At St Peter Liverpool.
We think Thomas Ditton was Elizabeth's father.
Walter was not a pilot (unfortunately!), but described himself as "Captain" on his Admon in 1775. We can't find anything on either man!
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Thomas Ditton of same, pilot
Per the list in "Beyond the Bar", T Dutton was licensed as a pilot in 1756.
There may well be more on him in the archive at Liverpool's Maritime Museum.
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Thanks, Shaun.
Chances of getting to the Martime Museum is pretty well nil these days, unfortunately, but you never know!
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Hi, I just discovered this thread.
I'm trying to sort out an Irish family who were my father's first cousins.
The name is MEMERY and there were six of seven brothers who went to sea.
One is James MEMERY, born 1894, third son of James MEMERY, fisherman.
In my uncle's memoirs he wrote that James became a pilot on the Mersey Approaches,
and moved from Dublin to Liverpool.
The other brothers were William, Arthur,Frederick, Robert, John MEMERY. Born 1892 - 1904.
I think they were not pilots, but it may be possible.
Can you help?
I also have photos of these brothers which I am trying to identify, if anyone knows anything of them....I may have found a descendant on Ancestry, so will try there for this as well.
A great offer, thank you - Alison
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Hi Alison
Beyond The Bar by Barry Youde has no pilots listed with the name Memery.
there are no pilots of that name listed in Kellys 1938 directory either.
sorry
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Oh Dear. Pity. Thanks for looking - I will keep up the search - Alison
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In an excerpt of a conversation about Joseph Bennett in 1822 between davecigar and RickyC, Ricky made the following comment about 'condition of service' linking the keeper of the lighthouse and master of the lifeboat being removed.
It's a long shot as it's a 7 year old post but where would RickyC have read that the 'condition of service' had been removed?
Thanks,
Dave Nbl
Hi Dave,
Many thanks for your prompt reply.
In 1809, it was a 'condition of service' that the Hoylake Lighthouse Keeper was also Coxswain of the Hoylake Lifeboat.
So Joseph Bennett would have filled both positions until he retired as Coxswain in 1822.
At this point, the 'condition of service' was removed, thus allowing Joseph Bennett to continue as Lighthouse Keeper until his death in 1828.
Unfortunately nobody knows who took over as Coxswain after Joseph Bennett's retirement in 1822. Thus Hoylake Lifeboat Station's list of Coxswains remains blank for the period 1822 to 1840.
RickyC.
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Hi I'm looking for some information about a Mersey Pilot, named George Williams. I believe he worked in this field, during the 1930's and maybe the 20's too.
Thanks in advance.
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Hi I'm looking for some information about a Mersey Pilot, named George Williams. I believe he worked in this field, during the 1930's and maybe the 20's too.
Welcome to Rootschat, Alex
Barrie Youde (Beyond the Bar) lists a G H Williams born 1906, licensed 1928, died 1946 - is that your man?
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Hi I'm looking for some information about a Mersey Pilot, named George Williams. I believe he worked in this field, during the 1930's and maybe the 20's too.
Hi, no I believe he died much later, 1987 I think.
Welcome to Rootschat, Alex
Barrie Youde (Beyond the Bar) lists a G H Williams born 1906, licensed 1928, died 1946 - is that your man?
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Hi, I have at least two g-g-g-grandfathers who were pilots on the Mersey. I have a transcript of the Character Book for one of them, but I'd like to learn more about the other one. I know his name was Mark Hudson and I believe he died - presumably in service at sea - between 1839 (when my g-g-grandmother was born) and 1841 (by which time his wife was a widow according to the 1841 census). Unfortunately I know no more than that.
Can anyone advise me where the Character Books are kept and how one might get access to them ?
Many thanks, Gordon.
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Mark Hudson was drowned on Tuesday 21 January 1840 per contemporary press reports.
I think the Character Books are held at the Maritime Museum in Liverpool.
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/exhibitions/liverpool-pilots/item-635608.aspx
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/sheet/65
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You should be aware that the MMM Archives are closed until Spring 2018 owing to 'developments'.
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Blimey !!!! Thank you so much for such a swift reply. I was expecting a simple 'died at sea' but this is such a moving account of his death.
Thank you so much, Gordon.
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Hi my great grandfather was onboard the Charles Livingston serving as a fireman on its fateful night in November 1939 at Liverpool, my nan lost her father at the young age of 8 and has no pictures of him unfortunately, I wondered if anyone can point me in the right direction please? Thanks in advance
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Hi.
I have a 1946 Liverpool Bay Pilot's Chart signed 'JH Aileiler?? PM3576' and wonder if you could properly identify him and say how long he was a pilot etc?
Many thanks
Iain James
PS please see the attached copy of the signature.
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Hi Iain,
There is no pilot with this name or anything similar listed in my "Beyond The Bar" book.
sorry.
Ozranga
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Hello, I'm looking for Henry Murphy, born c.1823 and noted as a Master Mariner on the birth cert of his son in 1867. Someone in the family has told me he was a Mersey Pilot, but that's all the info we have. Wondered if you could help? Kind regards :)
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Hi,
no Henry Murphy listed, only:
Murphy J. b1795. retired 1828. died 1836
Murphy P. b 1761. R1768
Murphy S. b 1795. d1810 at sea.
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I have a 1946 Liverpool Bay Pilot's Chart signed 'JH Aileiler?? PM3576' and wonder if you could properly identify him and say how long he was a pilot etc?
Iain hasn't been back to check for replies but for the record I would say that the surname is Atherton.
However there are no listings in "Beyond the Bar" for pilots named Atherton in the mid-20th century.
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Couldn't work out how to respond to your reply :/ but hope you see this - just wanted to thank you for your time. :)
Hi,
no Henry Murphy listed, only:
Murphy J. b1795. retired 1828. died 1836
Murphy P. b 1761. R1768
Murphy S. b 1795. d1810 at sea.
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Hello, I'm looking for Henry Murphy, born c.1823 and noted as a Master Mariner on the birth cert of his son in 1867.
There are a masters and mates certificates on Ancestry for Henry Murphy born Downpatrick on 24 June 1822. Is that your man? There's quite a lot of information there about his history as a mariner.
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Hello, I'm looking for Henry Murphy, born c.1823 and noted as a Master Mariner on the birth cert of his son in 1867.
There are a masters and mates certificates on Ancestry for Henry Murphy born Downpatrick on 24 June 1822. Is that your man? There's quite a lot of information there about his history as a mariner.
Oh I'm not sure, I have a census transcript that puts his year of birth as 1823, how do I look at the information you mentioned?
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Aged 48 in the 1861 census? That does suggest he was born in 1822/3. I'm sure it's the right man.
As I said the masters and mates certificates are on Ancestry and there is a wealth of detailed information there. You'l need to tab backwards as well as forwards from the linked images to catch it all.
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Aged 48 in the 1861 census? That does suggest he was born in 1822/3. I'm sure it's the right man.
As I said the masters and mates certificates are on Ancestry and there is a wealth of detailed information there. You'l need to tab backwards as well as forwards from the linked images to catch it all.
I'll have a look - is it ancestry.co.uk?
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I'll have a look - is it ancestry.co.uk?
Yes!
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Hello
Never noticed this post before, would anyone have any info on David Hopley of Liverpool.
He gives his profession as warehouseman in 1845 on marriage cert but is a pilot according to his son on his marriage many years later.
Lee
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Hi Lee,
sorry, but there is no Hopley listed in 'Beyond The Bar'
Marienne
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Thanks for looking.
Lee
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Hi, a punt in the dark as I can see this thread started a loooong time ago! My father George illiams, born 1905, is down on various family docs as a Ships Pilot, and that's always my memory of him. Maritime have no trace, wondered if anything on here? His father, David Williams born around 1854 may also have been a Liverpool pilot, master mariner. Any help or information appreciated
Thanks
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My father George illiams, born 1905, is down on various census's as a Ships Pilot
If he was born 1905 he won't have been on any published census as a ship's pilot. Is he the George Williams at 59 Bailey Drive, Bootle in the 1939 Register? In the the 1938 Directory he's listed as a boatman.
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Thanks ShaunJ - yep that's him (Williams!) working on the basis he will have become a pilot at some stage (unless that was just something he told the kids!), I've a very very dim memory of him taking me and my mum in what I'm guessing would have been the early 1970s on a tugboat, his father David Williams (1854-1954) looks to have been a mariner and mersey boatman for many years, possibly a pilot at some point as well
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I think George Williams may have been a dock pilot, not a river pilot, but "Beyond The Bar" lists a G H Williams born 1905, licensed as a pilot 1928, died 1946. Nothing listed for a David Williams born 1854.
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Thanks that's really helpful and ties in with maritime, interesting distinction as well with docks pilot, thanks again
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Hi
Does anyone know much about the actual author of 'List of Pilots - 1734 to 1990' - John (PJH) Tebay? I have Tebay's in my tree so this caught my eye. My direct ancestor was a female Tebay so I wondered if anyone knew who John Tebay's father was so I can try to find any link?
Thanks
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My understanding is that Liverpool pilot Philip John Holt TEBAY was born 1928 in Wallasey, son of another Liverpool pilot Cecil Hugh Forrest TEBAY (b1885 London) who perished (along with my relative Thomas Ledsham EVANS) in the CHARLES LIVINGSTON incident in November 1939.
Cecil was a son of William Holt TEBAY (b1857 Poynton Cheshire), he a son of Septimus TEBAY (b1836 Winstanley, Lancashire), he a son of Thomas TEBAY who married Margaret SHAW on 4 December 1826 in All Saints Church, Wigan.
The name is relatively rare, so there's a good chance your female TEBAY might belong to the same family.
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Oh, thank you for all that information. That's great - wonder if I'll now find a link?
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If you're willing to post the name, location and time-frame of your TEBAY ancestor I may be able to help?
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I've already worked it out! He's a 4th cousin, twice removed :D. But, thanks for the offer.
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Hello I appreciate your offer thank you. My gt gf was James O’ Connell born in Ireland was said to be a port pilot proberbly 1860/70
Thanks
Petet
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There is no James O'Connell on the list of Liverpool Pilots.
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Have you found James O'Connell on census records in Liverpool, jaswabb ?
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Hi, Can anyone help with William Roberts who was listed as a pilot in Liverpool in 1806 and later listed as a river pilot.
Thanks Joanne
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Hi Joanne and welcome to Rootschat. In the list in "Beyond the Bar" there is nothing that early for a William Roberts. The earliest one was licensed in 1827 and died in 1829. There's another who was licensed in 1832 and died in 1833.
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Hi Shaun J,
Thank you much for checking. He was listed as a pilot on marriage and two birth certificates in 1805 and 1806.
In a 1809 birth record he was listed as a boatsman. He lived in Plumb St, Liverpool at this time. (I can’t find it on google maps) but the records are for St Nicolas and St Annes Church) Are there other types of pilots he could have been? What is a boatsman?
I have to check whether he was dead by 1830 when he was listed as a river pilot.
I have really enjoyed reading the stories of Liverpool and the pilots.
Cheers Joanne (Perth WA)
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In a 1809 birth record he was listed as a boatsman. He lived in Plumb St
I believe it says Boat Man
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You can see Plumbe Street on this 1851 map, between the I and V of LIVERPOOL
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102344096#zoom=6&lat=3015&lon=4896&layers=BT
It ran from Key Street to Canal Bank - perhaps William Roberts was a boatman on the Leeds and Liverpool canal. There was a timber wharf at Plumbe Street.
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Hi Shaun,
It‘s great to see the street. Thank you so much. I will find out about boat men on the canals as u suggest. It‘s a great help.
Thanks again.
Joanne Perth WA
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My family has tow Liverpool Master Pilots 1. John Scott 1817 to 1890 was Master Pilot of Pilot Boat No 9 called Guide. His daughter Amelia Scott married George Henry Cook Rogers 14th June 1880. His father was Master Pilot George Henry Rogers 1827 to 1896 I cannot find which was his boat No or its name. Was the Master Pilot Rogers blown up by a German Mine in 1917 a relative? I also see that a Thomas Leicester 1776 to 1834 was a pilot at Liverpool-does he appear in any records?
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I would like to take up your offer. I have several relatives who were Master Pilots.
1 George Henry Rogers 1827 to 1896. I cannot find the name or number of his Pilot Boat.
In 1917 one of the Pilots lost on the Liverpool Pilot Boat that struck a mine was a Rogers. Was he related?
2. John Scott 1817 to 1890 was a Master Pilot of "Guide" Pilot Boat number 9 Were there any other Scott Family members that were Pilots?
3 Was Thomas Leicester 1739 to 1809 a Pilot?
I also had a distant cousin who was a Thames Pilot any ideas finding his story. No sites seem to give information about retired Pilots.
Many thanks for any help you can offer.
My Regards, John Nicholas Leicester
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We are trying to find the grave of David Ravenscroft who died 25/8/1967 at Mill Road hospital he may be in Ford Cemetery can anyone help please
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Hello. Came across your 'investigation's' after watching programme on UK television re Mersey river pilots and found out my mother's uncle was Leslie Holmes. Don't know if your still looking into your family roots but William Clifford Holmes was her father. He had two daughters (my mum & auntie who are both still alive). William J's six daughters were Hilda, Rita, Verna, Trixie (Beatrice), Bradbury & Ida. All lived in Wallasey. I know Bradbury was the youngest and worked as a hairdresser on board a ship. Which daughter was your grandmother? If you have any gaps in your family tree, please advise as my mum has a mountain of background info.
Hi Rosie, I believe William Clifford is my Grandfathers 1st cousin. I would be interested in any information you have on the Holmes family. Thanks
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Hello
I wonder if you are still doing lookups for Mersey Pilots? If so, any information on the following would be helpful:
1.George Frederick Parkinson born Liverpool 1838 enumerated in 1861 as a Pilot, 1901 a Master Pilot and Pilot (superannuated) in 1911.
2.James Parkinson born Liverpool 1869 is listed as a Liverpool Pilot in 1901, then a Pilot 1st Class in 1911, retiring in 1927.
3.James' brother Charles Parkinson born Liverpool 1871 is listed on the 1901 census as 'Liverpool Pilot'. I can't find him after 1901.
4.Frederick Parkinson born Liverpool 1878 described as an Apprentice Seas Pilot in 1901 and a Licensed Liverpool Pilot for Mersey Docks & Harbour Board in 1911 (retired by 1939).
In anticipation and thank you.
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I am looking for information on my Great Grandfather who was a Liverpool Pilot.
His name is Charles Henry Jones.
In 1871 he was a journeyman Pilot.
In 1881 he was a Special Steam Pilot.
In 1883 he was a Pilot on #1 Pilot Ship Liverpool
In 1883 he was taken from the Pilot ship to Amlwch Cottage Hospital where he died.
If you have any further access to information I would be. Most grateful.
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Charles Henry Jones
There is this listing:
Jones C.H., H.S.A. born 1846; licenced 1867; died 1884
"HSA" signifies an award made by the Liverpool Shipwreck and Humane Society for exceptional merit in the saving of life.
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Thanks for your rapid reply.
Is there any detail of why he received the award?
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In further review this may not be my GGF as he was born in 1840 and died 1883.
Jones being a very common name complicates research on him.
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Is there any detail of why he received the award?
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SeanJ, thank you very much for this info. You are certainly an expert in these matters.
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Hi
Neither David or George Williams are listed as pilots in "Beyond The Bar"