Smith Family of Lothersdale

[muffti]

My Grandfather was Ernest Smith born 1875 and, when I was very young,  lived in Eastburn. My father wrote that:

"I never knew any of my grandparents Grannie Smith apart, who was Squeaky Jack’s second wife. All four grandparents must have been type specimens comparable to my parents. Squeaky Jack was born in Lothersdale, a Quaker, who would allow no quarter in the Meeting House – he left the Society of Friends in order to become a Primitive Methodist Local Preacher."

I have found John Smith, Ernest's father, on the Census and he was born in 1840 in Carlton, Lothersdale. However,  when I look on the 1841 census I find 3 John Smiths born with 2 years of 1840 and all living in Dale End, Carlton.

I would be ever so grateful for any help in identifying whether John's parents were: Robert & Hannah, Josh & Dinah or Henry & Sarah. 

Muffti

[Binkie]

There were 3 Smith familes in Lothersdale which were named by Kenneth Wilson in his pedigree research as follows:-
Harry O Martha's
Smiths of the Hare & Hounds
Smith Owlcoates & Mire Close

I am descended form Harry O Martha's & have a large database for that family but the only Ernest Smith in that tree was born in 1895 to Tillotson & Mary Ann Smith.  It will take some time to trawl through the other family trees, which I have, as they are handwritten & A! size.

Is this the family in question:-
John Smith born 1840 Lothersdale
Mary Smith born 1840 Eastburn
Ann Smith born 1862 Eastburn
Thomas Smith born 1868 Eastburn
Ernest Smith born 1875 Shipley

Stupid question but do you have the marriage certificate for John & Mary as this would at least give you his father's christian name?

I will be away from home until Sunday night so won't be able to do any research till then

[muffti]

Thanks so much for the prompt reply Binkie

It certainly looks like this is the same family. This is from the 1881 census:

SMITH, John   1840   Lothersdale
SMITH, Mary   1840   Kildwick
SMITH, Ann   1862   Kildwick
SMITH, Martha   1864   Kildwick
SMITH, James   1866   Kildwick
SMITH, Thomas   1866   Kildwick
SMITH, Ernest   1875   Shipley
SMITH, John William   1881   Shipley

I was a bit spooked by the mention of Kildwick for a while but the 1891 Census shows the same family but gives Ann and Thomas's birthplaces as Eastburn not Kildwick.

You ask: "Stupid question but do you have the marriage certificate for John & Mary as this would at least give you his father's christian name?" The answer is "No, not yet."

I have a subscription to FindMyPast and have always tried to explore Census Returns, message boards etc before obtaining Birth, Marriage and Death Certificates.

I am really looking froward to hearing from you again but don't feel under any pressure.

Thanks again. 

[Binkie]

Managed to get home a day early!

As far as I’m aware your John Smith is not related to any of the 3 trees I mentioned earlier.  From the 3 possible parents you listed in your original posting, I would discount:-
•    Henry & Sarah
•   Joseph & Dinah as their son John was still single in 1871
However on looking at the 1841 census, it would appear that the John Smith born c1840 is not the son of Robert & Hannah as their ages are c75 & 65 respectively (remember 1841 census ages are rounded up or down to the nearest 5). It would seem that they are grandparents & the actual parents are Thomas & Ann.  There are baptisms for children of Thomas & Ann Smith at Christ Church, Lothersdale as follows:-
Benjamin born 9 May 1838 – baptised 1 December 1839
John born 2 November 1839 – baptised 1 December 1839
Thomas’s occupation is given as weaver and the address as Dale End

I haven’t been able to find a marriage for Thomas Smith to Ann nor John Smith to Mary.  As you are no doubt aware Smith is very difficult to research as it is one of the most common surnames

The confusion with place names is that sometimes the parish is given as birthplace e.g.
Lothersdale is in the Parish of Carleton (Carlton) in Craven
Eastburn is in the Parish of Kildwick.

I think that John & Mary must have been married c1860-61 as there is an 1861 census entry at 11 Turnpike Road, Eastburn:-
John Smith - Cotton Warp Dresser local Methodist Preacher – Age 21 – Kildwick*
Mary Smith – Age 21 – Kildwick
*Given the age & occupation of John Smith, I think this is incorrect & should be Lothersdale or Carlton

You will have to track down birth & marriage certificates before you can be certain as to whether the above is correct.

Hope this helps

[muffti]

I looked at your reply and thought : “Wow this is going to be easy. There were three John Smith’s born in 1840 in Lothersdale and you suggest I discount 2 of the families. That means there’s one left. BINGO”

I was wrong. I did a search in the 1851 census for John Smith born within 2 years of 1840 in Lothersdale and found that there were 4 John Smiths listed not three as I had expected.

The first 2 are the ones that are easy to discount:

John SMITH aged 11, born 1840, working as a Bobbing Winder, born Lothersdale the son of Joseph &  Dinah Smith. Living at Dalend, Carlton, Lothersdale.

John SMITH aged 13, born 1838, born Lothersdale the son of Henry & Sarah Smith. Henry was an Innkeeper & Farmer Of 17 Acres. Living at Dalend, Lothersdale.

The third might be the son of Thomas and Anne. Listed living at 80 Woodhead Lothersdale are:

SMITH,     Thomas,   Head, Married, M, 34, 1817, Power Loom Weaver   
SMITH,     Jane,        Wife, Married, F, 33, 1818      
PICKLES, Sophia,     Daughter, F, 13, 1838, Power Loom Weaver   
PICKLES, Benjamin, Son, M, 12, 1839,   Weaver
SMITH,    John,         Son, M, 11, 1840
SMITH,    James,       Son, M, 7, 1844,
PICKLES, Isabella,    Daughter, F, 10, 1841, Weaver
PICKLES, Simon,      Son, M, 6,   1845
PICKLES, Elizabeth,  Daughter, F, 0 (6 MOS), 1851

All the above were born in Lothersdale except for Simon who was born in Cowling. This might just make sense if this John Smith was the son of Thomas and Anne’s son, and Anne had died and Thomas had re-married to Jane (nee Pickles.)

The 4th John Smith was living at Mount, Kildwick in 1851 with 3 Uncles:

SMITH, John, Head, Unmarried, M,52, 1799, Hand Loome Weaver, born Cowling
SMITH, Christopher, Brother, Unmarried,   M, 44, 1807, Hand Loome Weaver, born Cowling
SMITH, George, Brother, Unmarried, M, 41, 1810, Hand Loome Weaver Wors, born Cowling
SMITH, John, Nephew, M, 11, 1840, Errand Boy, born Lothersdale

The three elder Smith’s can be found on the 1841 Census with Mary aged 70 (their mother) living at Cowling Hill, Kildwick, Cowling.

I think you are right and I will have to track down birth & marriage certificates before I can be certain of anything. Although I’m not expecting a lot of joy for, as you point out, the Smith name is very difficult to research.  Still my wife’s mother was an Evans who married a Jones and we have made progress there so miracles do happen. Onward and upward.

Thanks again for you help.

[Binkie]

Thomas Smith married Jane Pickles on 28 July 1850 at Christ Church, Lothersdale.  It looks like a widower & widow got married which was quite common then when there was no welfare state.  If I find anything else, I'll let you know.

[Binkie]

The Primitive Methodist Chapel in Lothersdale has a baptism entry for Thomas Smith, son of Robert & Hannah of Dale End born 20 December 1816 baptised 1 February 1817.  Occupation of Robert is given as Comber

[Binkie]

I don't know why I didn't find it first time around but there a baptism entry for a James Smith in the Christ Church PR as follows:-
Born 8 October 1843
Baptised 7 August 1845
The family are living at Brigstone and the occupation of Thomas is given as weaver

[edcull]

I don't know if it helps, but I've got a conveyance for three cottages in the Fold sold on 19/02/1814 to a Joseph Smith, Carpenter of Thornton.

Regards