Author Topic: Looking for info on Army units based in Ballincollig in 1866 & Harding ancestors  (Read 29958 times)

Offline Mike A

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Re: Looking for info on Army units based in Ballincollig in 1866 & Harding ances
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday 26 April 06 07:07 BST (UK) »
Doesn't look like that worked.... oh well, back to the drawing board!
AUSTRALIA - Chapman; Heineimann; McDonald; Osborne; Willard; Zerner
ENGLAND - Adams; Allsop; Cook; Coppin; Coppock; Eldridge; Harding; Halls; Lewin; Read; Swannell; Tanner; Tate; Thornton or Thorton; Vian; Willard
GERMANY - Duhs; Fink; Heineimann; Schroeder; Schwenkin; Sibke; Zerner
IRELAND - Harding; Jones; Long
SCOTLAND - Chapman; Dawson (or Desson); Ewan; Jessiman; Mark; McDonald; Ross

Offline Mike A

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Re: Looking for info on Army units based in Ballincollig in 1866 & Harding ances
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 26 April 06 07:15 BST (UK) »
OK - it did work, but the image won't appear as an Avatar until the next post. Also, the size doesn't adjust automatically, so I will try it again with a smaller image....
AUSTRALIA - Chapman; Heineimann; McDonald; Osborne; Willard; Zerner
ENGLAND - Adams; Allsop; Cook; Coppin; Coppock; Eldridge; Harding; Halls; Lewin; Read; Swannell; Tanner; Tate; Thornton or Thorton; Vian; Willard
GERMANY - Duhs; Fink; Heineimann; Schroeder; Schwenkin; Sibke; Zerner
IRELAND - Harding; Jones; Long
SCOTLAND - Chapman; Dawson (or Desson); Ewan; Jessiman; Mark; McDonald; Ross

Offline Mike A

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Re: Looking for info on Army units based in Ballincollig in 1866 & Harding ances
« Reply #29 on: Wednesday 26 April 06 07:20 BST (UK) »
Got it at last! Now you can see who we are talking about.

O.K., back to the thread topic - I have to thank Leofric most sincerely for the lead to my Grandfather's sister, Eliza, whose existence I was not previously aware of. I've now received Eliza's birth certificate from Mrs Jordan in Ballincollig and it reveals a few more interesting facts! Eliza was born on 24 July 1864, in Ballincollig. Her parents, Arthur Harding and Margaret Harding (nee Long) are clearly identified as being the same couple on my grandfather's birth certificate, and Arthur senior's occupation is again given as "Collar Maker, Royal Artillery".

However, he is shown on this certificate as resident in "Curragh of Kildare", so sometime between 1864 and 1866 he must have moved from the Curragh Military Barracks to the Ballincollig Barracks. There are records of graves in the British military Graveyard in Ballincollig between 1860 and 1865 belonging to soldiers of the Royal Artillery in N°. 2 Battery, 9th Brigade, H Battery, 6th Brigade, and E Battery, 8th Brigade. All this lends credence to the theory that he was a British soldier born in England and posted to Ireland. This gives me some specific information on which to base my search when I visit the National Archives in May.

Mrs Jordan has also uncovered the fact that Eliza was baptised in the Catholic Church in Ballincollig on 24th July 1864 and Arthur was baptised there on 18th May 1866. (The birth certificate gives her name as 'Eliza', but the baptismal record uses the full name 'Elizabeth' - perhaps she was named after Arthur's sister?). On both occasions the sponsors were Laurence O'Brien and Julia Manning. Julia Manning is listed as the informant on Eliza's birth certificate. Laurence O'Brien is listed as one of the  principal landholders in Ballincollig in the 1875 directory. Since my mother was raised in the Church of England, I always understood that my grandfather and grandmother were C of E and I assumed that his parents were therefore Church of Ireland. Just goes to show you shouldn't assume ANYTHING in this game!

Next line of search is the Ballincollig Catholic Church records to see if we can locate the marriage of Arthur Harding and Margaret Long. I don't know if my great-grandfather was Catholic or not, but if not, perhaps Margaret Long was and Arthur agreed to have the children baptised in the Catholic Church. This may lend further credence to the idea that Arthur senior and his sister Elizabeth were born in Surrey, while Margaret was born in Ireland and met Arthur when he was posted there with the Royal Artillery. However, the County Kildare reference has thrown another yet factor into the equation when searching for information on her and her family!

As Mrs Jordan said in her email to me, the puzzle unfolds slowly......!!

Mike
AUSTRALIA - Chapman; Heineimann; McDonald; Osborne; Willard; Zerner
ENGLAND - Adams; Allsop; Cook; Coppin; Coppock; Eldridge; Harding; Halls; Lewin; Read; Swannell; Tanner; Tate; Thornton or Thorton; Vian; Willard
GERMANY - Duhs; Fink; Heineimann; Schroeder; Schwenkin; Sibke; Zerner
IRELAND - Harding; Jones; Long
SCOTLAND - Chapman; Dawson (or Desson); Ewan; Jessiman; Mark; McDonald; Ross

Offline Daisypetal

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Re: Looking for info on Army units based in Ballincollig in 1866 & Harding ancestors
« Reply #30 on: Wednesday 26 April 06 12:34 BST (UK) »
Hi Mike,

I found this info about the R.A which you may find useful,

68 Battery RA

With the war over the Company moved back to Woolwich in July 1856 before moving on to Northampton in 1857 equipped as a Field Battery until moving to Aldershot in 1858.

In 1859 the organisation of the Royal Artillery was changed and the Company now became known as 4 Battery  8th Brigade Royal Artillery.

However in 1861 while at Davenport because it was a Field Battery its designation changed again to 'D' Battery  8th Brigade RA.

From 1863 until returning to Woolwich in 1866 the Battery moved about Ireland changing stations every few months.

Finally in July 1866 the Battery embarked for India landing in Calcutta on 28th October before marching to Sitapore to arrive there on 14th December 1866. Before long it was on the march again to Bareilly in 1867 where they remained until 1871. From Bareilly they marched to Jubbulpore, Benares in 1872 and then Lahore. The system was to move the Batteries about to different stations quite frequently.

1877 whilst at Nowgong the organisation changed again and the Battery became known as 'D' Battery 3 Brigade RA but remained a Field Battery. During 1877 the Battery took part in an engagement at Jowaki.

The Battery returned to Woolwich in 1881.

Daisy
All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk)


Offline Mike A

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Re: Looking for info on Army units based in Ballincollig in 1866 & Harding ances
« Reply #31 on: Wednesday 26 April 06 12:45 BST (UK) »
Hi Daisy,

Thank you for this interesting information - it is most helpful and may assist in narrowing my search down considerably.

Regards
Mike
AUSTRALIA - Chapman; Heineimann; McDonald; Osborne; Willard; Zerner
ENGLAND - Adams; Allsop; Cook; Coppin; Coppock; Eldridge; Harding; Halls; Lewin; Read; Swannell; Tanner; Tate; Thornton or Thorton; Vian; Willard
GERMANY - Duhs; Fink; Heineimann; Schroeder; Schwenkin; Sibke; Zerner
IRELAND - Harding; Jones; Long
SCOTLAND - Chapman; Dawson (or Desson); Ewan; Jessiman; Mark; McDonald; Ross

Offline Daisypetal

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Re: Looking for info on Army units based in Ballincollig in 1866 & Harding ancestors
« Reply #32 on: Wednesday 26 April 06 14:06 BST (UK) »
Hi Mike,

What a nice picture of your Grandfather  :) , and this seems to be your day for good news, first the great info from Ballincollig, and now hopefully I can tell you where your Grandfather was in 1901  :)

It's transcribed as HUSSEY ::) but looks very much like HARDING to me,

RG13/707 f.31 p.15 Wilmington, Kent

10 Dorset House

Laura TERRY      Head  S   60                               Kent Dartford
Arthur HARDING  Head  M  35   General Labourer     Ireland Cork
Minnie M  "  "     Wife   M  34                              Surrey Wimbledon
Margaret E  "  "  Daur   S    3                              Kent Wilmington

(I've included Laura TERRY as the HARDING family seem to be living in the same house as her, the neighbouring houses of 9 & 11 have separate households in them.)

Regards
Daisy
All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk)

Offline Mike A

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Re: Looking for info on Army units based in Ballincollig in 1866 & Harding ances
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday 26 April 06 14:55 BST (UK) »
Daisy,

Thank you once again! That is definitely the right family - Arthur born in Cork, Minnie born in Wimbledon, Surrey, and Margaret Elizabeth Harding, b.  21 April 1897 in Wilmington, Kent (my mother). This picture shows her at the age of about ten, I think.


I would never have thought to look under "Hussey" - it's too far removed from "Harding"! The Internet is a wonderful resource, but we do have to rely on the accuracy of the transcriptions.

Re your previous post, could you let me have the link to the information on 68 Battery RA, please? I did a search and Google found the first line of the text you posted, but when I tried to open that site, I got an error message saying it could not be found.  ???

Thanks again,
Mike
AUSTRALIA - Chapman; Heineimann; McDonald; Osborne; Willard; Zerner
ENGLAND - Adams; Allsop; Cook; Coppin; Coppock; Eldridge; Harding; Halls; Lewin; Read; Swannell; Tanner; Tate; Thornton or Thorton; Vian; Willard
GERMANY - Duhs; Fink; Heineimann; Schroeder; Schwenkin; Sibke; Zerner
IRELAND - Harding; Jones; Long
SCOTLAND - Chapman; Dawson (or Desson); Ewan; Jessiman; Mark; McDonald; Ross

Offline Daisypetal

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Re: Looking for info on Army units based in Ballincollig in 1866 & Harding ancestors
« Reply #34 on: Wednesday 26 April 06 15:19 BST (UK) »
Mike,

That's a really lovely picture of your mother  :)

Re my last post I think you've found the page I was reading, it seem to be disabled, if you hit 'cache' it will show you the entire article but none of the links works  :(

Daisy
All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk)

Offline Mike A

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Re: Looking for info on Army units based in Ballincollig in 1866 & Harding ances
« Reply #35 on: Monday 05 June 06 12:48 BST (UK) »
Hi Daisy,

I'm back from my overseas trip including visits to the Family Research Centre in Islington, the National Archives in Kew Gardens and Ballincollig in Ireland. I found lots of very useful information which has unravelled the puzzle considerably.

I found my Great Grandfather Arthur Harding's Army Discharge Papers and also references to him in the Pay and Muster Books in the National Archives. These confirm that:
1. He was born in Croydon in April or May 1835;
2. He joined the Royal Artillery on 25 August 1857, serving in the 2nd battalion, 8th Brigade as a "Gunner/Driver" on enlistment;
3. He was promoted to "Collar Maker" on 1 February 1862 and was posted with the 8th Brigade to Ireland from about 1863 to 1866;
4. He was promoted to Corporal on 1 February 1867 in Woolwich and re-enlisted for a further ten years on 10 October 1867;
5. He was promoted to Sergeant Collar Maker on 2 October 1869 and transferred to 3 Brigade on 1 July 1877;
6. He was discharged on 2 October 1878 in Rawul Pindi, East Indies, after serving a total of 21 years and 39 days in the Royal Artillery, including several years in the East Indies (the actual figure has been partially scratched out and is hard to decipher but it looks like 10 (?) years and 294 days).

However. I have also located a marriage record for "Arthur Coventry Harding" - December Quarter 1871, in Richmond, Surrey and on the same record page is shown "Ellen Brooks".

An Ellen Brooks was born in Macclesfield, Cheshire, in 1845 - this is two years out for the Ellen Harding shown in the 1901 census, but given the birthplace it seems a very likely possibility that this is the Ellen who married Arthur Harding. The only difficulty is matching the length of Arthur's service in the East Indies with the marriage date of 1871, but on the other hand it does fit with John Harding's birth to Arthur and Ellen Harding in the East Indies in 1873!

While I was in Ballincollig I was able to obtain the Baptismal Certificates for my Grandfather and his sister, which confirm that their parents were Arthur Harding and Margaret Long. Margaret was clearly from a Catholic family, hence their baptism in the RC church. I also believe I have located her Baptismal Certificate from the same RC church in Ballincollig. She appears to have been born and baptised on 5 April 1840. Her parents were John Long and Judith Brian. Now here's a fascinating fact - the RC church also found a birth/baptism entry for another Margaret Long, born to the SAME parents, but 5 years earlier! The godparents recorded on that certificate are different (though there is a surname connection), so this is not a duplicated entry with a different date. It seems highly likely that the first baby Margaret died and the second baby girl (my Great-Grandmother and Arthur's wife) was named after her.  Apparently this was a fairly common practice in those days.

What happened after my Grandfather was born in 1866 I don't know - but Arthur Harding senior clearly returned to England in late 1866 and re-enlisted in 1867.

I think it is possible that Arthur senior left my grandfather and his sister Eliza with their mother or her family when he returned with the Army to England and I am guessing that perhaps Margaret Harding nee Long died sometime after that. (I doubt that the marriage would have broken up because, being Catholic ,Margaret would not have agreed to a divorce which would have precluded Arthur marrying Ellen in 1871, if indeed that is what actually happened).

This certainly seems the most likely scenario at the moment and has opened up several more possible leads.

There is lots more I could tell you - this was a VERY rewarding trip for me! - but this post is already rather lengthy! Thanks for the leads that you provided, which helped me to match all this info.

Cheers,
Mike
AUSTRALIA - Chapman; Heineimann; McDonald; Osborne; Willard; Zerner
ENGLAND - Adams; Allsop; Cook; Coppin; Coppock; Eldridge; Harding; Halls; Lewin; Read; Swannell; Tanner; Tate; Thornton or Thorton; Vian; Willard
GERMANY - Duhs; Fink; Heineimann; Schroeder; Schwenkin; Sibke; Zerner
IRELAND - Harding; Jones; Long
SCOTLAND - Chapman; Dawson (or Desson); Ewan; Jessiman; Mark; McDonald; Ross