George Ellems/Ellims

[Forfarian]

Old Machar - Aberdeenshire -
Reid      Will    age 36   Merchant          Born England
Elmsie/ Reid    Ann   age 36                 Born Aberdeenshire
Reid       Ann Isobella  age 6                 Born Aberdeenshire
I found it interesting as I reckon Ann and Will are not married and she's using both names.

Another one I missed earlier!

There are absolutely no grounds for thinking that they were not married.

In Scotland, a woman legally retains her maiden surname; taking her husband's name is merely a convention.

She is referred to in legal documents as "<given name><maiden surname> or <husband's surname>", and certainly in the 18th century would be known as "Mistress <maiden surname>, wife of <husband's name>".

Here is an example transcribed from the Rothes Parish Register: "1748, September 11th. William lawful son to Alexander Leslie of Balnageith in Burncrooks and Mrs Anne Duff his spouse was baptized. Witness Mr James Gray minister."

It is not at all uncommon to find perfectly respectable married women listed in the earlier censuses under their own name, though the practice pretty much died out by the end of the 19th century.

In this case, the IGI says that William Reid and Ann Elmslie were married in Old Machar, Aberdeen on 25 September 1831.

[loobylooayr]

Old Machar - Aberdeenshire -
Reid      Will    age 36   Merchant          Born England
Elmsie/ Reid    Ann   age 36                 Born Aberdeenshire
Reid       Ann Isobella  age 6                 Born Aberdeenshire
I found it interesting as I reckon Ann and Will are not married and she's using both names.

Another one I missed earlier!

There are absolutely no grounds for thinking that they were not married.

In Scotland, a woman legally retains her maiden surname; taking her husband's name is merely a convention.

She is referred to in legal documents as "<given name><maiden surname> or <husband's surname>", and certainly in the 18th century would be known as "Mistress <maiden surname>, wife of <husband's name>".

Here is an example transcribed from the Rothes Parish Register: "1748, September 11th. William lawful son to Alexander Leslie of Balnageith in Burncrooks and Mrs Anne Duff his spouse was baptized. Witness Mr James Gray minister."

It is not at all uncommon to find perfectly respectable married women listed in the earlier censuses under their own name, though the practice pretty much died out by the end of the 19th century.

In this case, the IGI says that William Reid and Ann Elmslie were married in Old Machar, Aberdeen on 25 September 1831.

Sorry for all my errors Forfarian
We all live and learn
I should have done my homework on that one and checked the IGI's myself before I made the post 

Looby

[drbono]

Thanks Forfarian for all your input and Looby for your ongoing interest.  Forfarian, your suggestions all proved extremely fruitful and I would like you provide an update of what I have discovered as a result. 

Starting with George Ellis who was sent in exile to Melbourne, Australia;
-born in 1812 in Duffus
-married Isobel Forsyth in 1837 in Duffus
-had 4 children;
  1. Johanna Brander (born 1838 in Thomashill)
  2. Helen (born 1840 in Thomashill)
  3. Christinia (born 1841 in Thomas Hill)
  4. Isabella (born 1843 in Thomshill)
-only listed in 1841 census, consistent with his exile to Australia in 1846

George Ellis parents are indeed John Ellis & Helen Robertson;
-John Ellis & Helen Robertson married in Alves, Elgin in 1810
-Helen Robertson's death certificate lists 9 children (but not their location) - all children were born in Duffus between 1812 & 1834
-John Ellis died in 1864 in Elgin while Helen Robertson died in 1855 in Deanshillock

John Ellis was born in 1786 in New Spynie (near Duffus) to William Ellis & Christina Ross.  He was the third of 5 children - his siblings were born in Ettles, Drainie (William, 1781) / Duffus (John I, 1783) / West Alves (James, 1788 + Alexander, 1792.

I was surpised to be able to go so far back with relative ease, however I am now stuck at William Ellis.  A couple of online "Ellis" family trees suggest;
-he was born in 1762 in Alves, possibly to George Ellis
-his siblings were George Ellis (born 1769) & Ferdinand Ellis (born 1776)

I do not, however, have any strong documentation suggesting these details.  I am being a little greedy now, as I am just delighted that I have been able to find out so much.  I am actually heading over to Elgin in 6 weeks time to do some more hands on research and I am also awaiting copies of the Inverness trial records from 1843.

Thanks again to all that have helped me!, drbono

[Ali.Hill]

George is in the 1841 census at Thomshill, Birnie, Moray, described as a cartwright, with wife Isabella and daughter Joanna, 2 and Hellen, 1.

In 1851 Isabella, aged 40, described as house carpenter's wife, is at Thomshill with daughters Helen, 11; Christina, 9; and Helen, 7. Joanna, aged 12, is a servant in the household of William Taylor, farmer, at Pans Port, Elgin.

Thomshill http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ2157
Pans Port http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ2262

The IGI lists four children of George Ellis and Isabella Forsyth, who were married at Duffus, Moray on 3 June 1837.
Johanna Brander born 9 baptised 22 July 1838
Helen born 1 baptised 14 January 1840
Christinia born 25 baptised 31 October 1841
Isabella born 17 October baptised 1 November 1843

You should look up both censuses, the marriage and all four baptisms at SP to make sure that any transcription errors are your own, and also to note any additional details that may be in the baptism records, for example names of witnesses, who may give a clue to George's parentage.

According to http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp Isabella Forsyth or Ellis, wife of George Ellis, carpenter, and daughter of William Forsyth and Christina Mortimer, applied for relief from the parish of Birnie in 1854. The application will describe her circumstances and almost certainly refer to George having been transported, which is just the clinching detail you need. Isabella died on 22 July 1888 at Thomshill.

I am now getting into the realms of speculation. Traditionally a first daughter is named after her mother's mother, a second daughter after her father's mother and a third daughter after her mother. George and Isabella, however, named their third daughter after Isabella's mother and their fourth after Isabella.

It would be interesting to know why they chose an unconventional name for their first - could she have been named after one of the Brander family who were prominent in the Elgin area, and owned land in the parish of Duffus? Was George in some way connected to or indebted to the Brander family?

Noting that George and Isabella were married in Duffus, and that their second daughter was named Helen, I wonder whether George is the son of John Ellis and Helen Robertson, born 3 and baptised 11 October 1812 in the parish of Duffus?

LIBINDX records that Helen Robertson, wife of John Ellis, daughter of George Robertson and Margaret King, died at Deanshillock on 19 March 1855. This means that you are really, really, really lucky, because an 1855 death certificate lists all children, living and dead, of the deceased, often with their whereabouts. So go to Scotland's People and download a copy of this death certificate, and if it says that Helen had a son George, aged 42, in Australia, you have the proof you need.

Deanshillock http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ3056

If I am right, you also have not one, but two more generation on your tree.

Happy hunting!

Hi there
I hope this is were I post this..yes the George Ellis you have here is the son of John Ellis & Helen Robertson. On her death cert he is 44 yrs old.
I wondered why I could never find George's death date and didn't think of him going to Australia. My husband is related to George's brother John Ellis who's son William  b 1852 Moray also went to Oz.
If you haven't already got a copy of Helen's death cert I can send it to you.
Cheers Ali 

[Ali.Hill]

George is in the 1841 census at Thomshill, Birnie, Moray, described as a cartwright, with wife Isabella and daughter Joanna, 2 and Hellen, 1.

In 1851 Isabella, aged 40, described as house carpenter's wife, is at Thomshill with daughters Helen, 11; Christina, 9; and Helen, 7. Joanna, aged 12, is a servant in the household of William Taylor, farmer, at Pans Port, Elgin.

Thomshill http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ2157
Pans Port http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ2262

The IGI lists four children of George Ellis and Isabella Forsyth, who were married at Duffus, Moray on 3 June 1837.
Johanna Brander born 9 baptised 22 July 1838
Helen born 1 baptised 14 January 1840
Christinia born 25 baptised 31 October 1841
Isabella born 17 October baptised 1 November 1843

You should look up both censuses, the marriage and all four baptisms at SP to make sure that any transcription errors are your own, and also to note any additional details that may be in the baptism records, for example names of witnesses, who may give a clue to George's parentage.

According to http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp Isabella Forsyth or Ellis, wife of George Ellis, carpenter, and daughter of William Forsyth and Christina Mortimer, applied for relief from the parish of Birnie in 1854. The application will describe her circumstances and almost certainly refer to George having been transported, which is just the clinching detail you need. Isabella died on 22 July 1888 at Thomshill.

I am now getting into the realms of speculation. Traditionally a first daughter is named after her mother's mother, a second daughter after her father's mother and a third daughter after her mother. George and Isabella, however, named their third daughter after Isabella's mother and their fourth after Isabella.

It would be interesting to know why they chose an unconventional name for their first - could she have been named after one of the Brander family who were prominent in the Elgin area, and owned land in the parish of Duffus? Was George in some way connected to or indebted to the Brander family?

Noting that George and Isabella were married in Duffus, and that their second daughter was named Helen, I wonder whether George is the son of John Ellis and Helen Robertson, born 3 and baptised 11 October 1812 in the parish of Duffus?

LIBINDX records that Helen Robertson, wife of John Ellis, daughter of George Robertson and Margaret King, died at Deanshillock on 19 March 1855. This means that you are really, really, really lucky, because an 1855 death certificate lists all children, living and dead, of the deceased, often with their whereabouts. So go to Scotland's People and download a copy of this death certificate, and if it says that Helen had a son George, aged 42, in Australia, you have the proof you need.

Deanshillock http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ3056

If I am right, you also have not one, but two more generation on your tree.

Happy hunting!

Hi there
I hope this is were I post this..yes the George Ellis you have here is the son of John Ellis & Helen Robertson. On her death cert he is 44 yrs old.
I wondered why I could never find George's death date and didn't think of him going to Australia. My husband is related to George's brother John Ellis who's son William  b 1852 Moray also went to Oz.
If you haven't already got a copy of Helen's death cert I can send it to you.
Cheers Ali 

Hi drbono,

Thankyou for your message but for some reason I couldnt reply to it grr!! Ill post this one here but can you please tell me how I reply lol!! ("feeling like a plonker") Im not very computer savy.
I did have some of the information you sent but manage to full in a few gaps to which is wonderful. Thankyou so much.
 John Ellis & Helen Robertsons son William Ellis  b 1819 also went to Australia this is what I have..

William b 1819 m Hellen Dean 1867 Blackhills, Moray.
Children are...George Nelson Ellis b 13/6/1867 Adelaide, Australia d 1930
                     Robert Ellis            b 1/8/1869 Mt Gambier, Australia
                     Margaret Ellis         b 12/2/1872 Mt Gambier, Australia
                     Isabella Ellis           b 15/12/1875 Mt Gambier, Australia
                     William Alexander   b 6/8/1882     Mt Gambier, Australia

Geroge Nelson Ellis b 1867 m Agnes Charlotte Le Lievre b 8/9/1867 Ashby, Victoria, Australia d 1908
Children are...Leslie Ellis b 1896
                    Frank Le Lievre Ellis b 1898 Fremantle, Australia
                    George Ellis b 1900
                    John Nelson Ellis b 1904
                    Lorna Dean Ellis b 1905
                    Ruby Clare Ellis b 1906
                    Estella Elizabeth b 1907

so it looks like a few Ellis's went to Australia. With my husbands family Ill reply (if I can) on your message as there are quite a few names on that.

Hope this helps,
Cheers Ali

[msunshine11]

Hello

I noticed that in this thread there is a mention of Margaret King and George Robertson (parents of Helen Robertson Ellis).  They are my 6th great-grandparents.  I was wondering if anyone in this thread turned up any more information about their parents?  The names are so common, it's difficult to get a read on which Robertson is which.  Thank you!

[JMBresearch]

Hello
It's quite a long time since this discussion, but I wanted to let you know that there is a letter at the Public Records Office Victoria in Melbourne from George Ellis to the Colonial Secretary dated 26 December 1847, asking for assistance to bring his wife and children over from Scotland.
He gives his wife's name as Isabella Forsyth and lists their four daughters.  He was living in Geelong at the time.
Hope that helps with your research
Jill B

[Phillimy1]

Could I ask a question about Hugh McPhillimy & Margaret McPhillimy (nee Noble)?  I believe I am their direct descendant of their son James McPhillimy  1823- 1893.  Are Hugh and Margaret also their children? Do you know if they had any other children?  I am trying to find the direct link to the McPhillimy family in Geelong Australia.  Would be very grateful for any ideas about where to find further information.


Following on from this comment:

I have found out more about George Ellems's wife Margaret McPhillimy.

It appears that she came to Australia via the ship "William Stewart" from Plymouth, England, arriving in Melbourne in 1848.  In the passenger list she is listed as "Margaret McFellamy", aged 20.  There is a Hugh McPhilimy aged 23, apparently her brother, on the same vessel.

I have certainly discovered her death certificate too.  She died in 1894 as "Mary Henchman" in Ballarat, near Melbourne.  Her parents are Hugh McPhillimy & Margaret McPhillimy (nee Noble) and the certificate states she was born in Tyrone, Ireland.  Finally, the certificate states her previous marriage to "George Ellims" and 5 children with their ages.  Her surname was Henchman as she had a civil marriage to Charles Hinchman.