St Mary's Carlisle: William and Elizabeth GRAHAM - how many? who belongs where?

[LornaHen]

This topic
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=208923.msg5458426#msg5458426
refers but is part of a very very long thread, so time to break this bit out into a new one.

I'm trying to sort out which marriages and baptisms belong to which William and Elizabeth 1808 to around 1838
Can anyone claim any of these and allocate the baptisms to the right mother, who may or may not be one of the Elizabeths married in Carlisle?
All events shown are St Mary's Carlisle

full_name	Timeline	Event	parents or spouse	batch_number	person_url
Elizabeth Underwood	07 Dec 1813	Marriage	William Graham	M00486-2	pal:/MM9.1.1/NVMV-KVH
Thomas Graham	26 Sep 1813	Chr.	William Graham   Elizabeth	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/NG3C-QGW
Elizabeth Stephenson	07 Mar 1814	Marriage	William Graham	M00486-2	pal:/MM9.1.1/NVMV-KVZ
Ann Graham	07 Jun 1814	Chr.	William Graham   Elizabeth	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/JWW1-L8L
Jane Graham	27 Aug 1815	Chr.	William Graham   Elizabeth	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/JMCQ-VPK
James Graham	21 Sep 1817	Chr.	William Graham   Elizabeth	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/NYVK-QYZ
Sarah Caroline Benson Graham	15 Nov 1820	Chr.	William Graham   Elizabeth	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/NG3C-KXT
William Graham	28 Oct 1821	Chr.	William Graham   Elizabeth	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/NG3D-FRD	Rigg St 1841
James Graham	07 May 1823	Chr.	William Graham   Elizabeth	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/NG3C-6VM
Agnes Graham	04 Apr 1825	Chr.	William Graham   Elizth.	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/JQPM-NQ4
Thomas Wilkinson Graham *	05 Aug 1827	Chr.	William Graham   Elizth.	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/J3S3-2LR	Rigg 1841?
Agnes Graham	10 Mar 1829	Chr.	William Graham   Elizth.	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/JMCQ-FVP	Rigg 1841
Elizabeth MATTINSON	13 Feb 1830	Marriage	William GRAHAM	MH5J-LS6
James Graham	16 Oct 1831	Chr.	William Graham   Elizth.	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/NG3C-6V3
Wilfred Graham	08 Sep 1833	Chr.	William Graham   Elizth.	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/J3S3-LTR	Rigg 1841/51
George Graham	25 Jan 1835	Chr.	William Graham   Elizth.	P00486-1	pal:/MM9.1.1/NG38-HYB	Rigg 1841/51
Robert	Abt 1837		William and Elizabeth			Rigg 1841/51

         

*
as the earlier messages indicate my primary interest is in identifying Thomas Wilkinson GRAHAM's correct parents to see if his family of GRAHAMs can be connected to mine and account for an autosomal dna match with my maternal aunt.

The 1841 census of a Thomas of the right age in the hsehold of William, a weaver, and Elizabeth in Rigg St is the best id I have yet found for him.
The Thomas Wilkinson GRAHAM who married Ann STEEN was at the "Jovial Sailor" Inn by 1871 and dies in 1874 (admin granted to relict Ann, both are in the Richardson St Cemetery in Carlisle according to http://www.carlisleshistory.co.uk/page8.htm).
Three of their daughters were enumerated in the same census as living in the Grocers shop in the same street, Caldcotes, presumably the same grocer's shop where Thomas and Ann were in 1861.

[Gan Yam]

Hi

I have Thomas Wilkinson Graham Forsyth in my family tree who I think is the grandson of Thomas Wilkinson Graham from his daughter Elizabeth Graham.  He is not in my direct line and the connection is via Elizabeth's husband Andrew Forsyth.  However I do know that there are several people on ancestry are researching this Graham line.   

J

[LornaHen]

Hi

... However I do know that there are several people on ancestry are researching this Graham line.   

J

Thanks J
Yes, I've seen/am watching several trees on ancestry, none seem to have the definitive answers though 

Ta
Lorna

[Gan Yam]

There's a Thomas W Graham living in Wetheral in 1841 census.  Unfortunately I dont have full access to ancestry at the moment so cant look to see if this is a possibility. 

I could look at St Mary's baptism records for you next time I'm at the archives?  Is it everyone in your the first post on this thread that you are looking for clues in?

J

[LornaHen]

There's a Thomas W Graham living in Wetheral in 1841 census.  Unfortunately I dont have full access to ancestry at the moment so cant look to see if this is a possibility. 

I could look at St Mary's baptism records for you next time I'm at the archives?  Is it everyone in your the first post on this thread that you are looking for clues in?

J

Hi J,

The Thomas W GRAHAM in Wetheral in 1841 is indeed of an age, but appears to be the son of a George (independent, born County) and Mary (not born county); Thomas is born county but his two assumed siblings, one older, one younger aren't born county.
They're living at Great Corby.
Unfortunately there are other Thomas W GRAHAMs around, but then we don't expect GRAHAMs to be easy in this area!
We do know that the Thomas GRAHAM marrying Ann STEEN was the son of a William as the marriage is indexed as such.
The addition of the Wilkinson middle name comes from other sources (probate/headstone and baptism).
(Just reassuring myself here).

If you have time at the archives I would very much appreciate some clues.
If I was doing that myself, I'd check the three marriages for any place/occupation/witness clues
and for the baptisms I'd start with Sarah (1820), given all her names she's a little unusual, which is a very tenuous link to Thomas with his having a middle name, and do down to Wilfred.
The earlier ones are really only listed for completeness in the timeframes for the Elizabeth marriages in a vain hope that someone has already claimed them in their research.
The more I look at the list, and take into consideration that family info (see earlier thread) places Wilfred with Elizabeth MATTINSON, poor William of Rigg St looks to have lost 2 wives named Elizabeth before marrying a Catherine.

Regards,
Lorna

[Gan Yam]

Hi

Here is the info from the parish records.  Not sure it'll take you any closer.

Marriages:
Elizabeth Underwood - William was from Parish of St Cuthberts and she was from St Mary's.  They were married by Banns.  Both could write their names and the witnesses were Joseph Glaister and John McKnight

Elizabeth Stephenson - both were from Parish of St Mary's, neither could write their name and Elizabeth was a widow.  their witnesses were Robert Graham and Thomas Caldwell.

Elizabeth Mattinson - - William was from Stanwix, neither could write their name and the witnesses were Margaret Robson and Thomas Caldwell.

There was no information about addresses or occupations in the records.  All were married by banns but only the banns for Elizabeth Mattinson were available, but no extra information in them.  The banns for the other marriages are missing. 

Thomas Caldwell must have been the vicar or curate because he was the person that read the banns for the Elizabeth Mattinson marriage.

Baptisms:

Sarah Caroline Benson Graham - family lived in Abbey Street and the father was a hatter.

Thomas Graham - 26/09/1813 - family lived in Caldew brow and father was a joiner

All the other births except for William 28/10/1821 lived in Caldewgate and father was a weaver.

William Graham - Lived in Willowholme and father was a weaver.  This could still be the same family as Willowholme is just off Caldewgate.

There wasn't anything in the records to suggest either way that these births were or were not from the same family.

The marriage of Thomas Wilkinson Graham gave address as Caldcotes for both him and Ann Steen.  Ann was a minor at marriage. The witnesses were  William Graham and Mary Hinton/Hudson/Hodson (quite difficult to read).  Thomas' father was a weaver and Ann's was a labourer.

Death notice in the paper for Thomas gave his address as Caldcotes.  Caldcotes is just off Caldewgate and is where the Jovial Sailor is still a working pub.

Sorry there's nothing more useful.

J

[LornaHen]

Hi

Here is the info from the parish records.  Not sure it'll take you any closer.

...
Sorry there's nothing more useful.

J

On the contrary J, and many many thanks.
It is always great to add evidence to speculation, even if sometimes that simply raises more, different, questions.
Just checking, as you do mention Thomas:
When you say "all" the baptisms, that you do mean all on the list, from Thomas 1813 down to George, not just from Sarah down?


That does indicate to me that Thomas Wilkinson G is the Thomas in Rigg St with William the weaver in 1841, given the baptisms are mostly Caldewgate to father William a weaver and his marriage likewise links him to William weaver.

IF my theories are correct, William, weaver, might be the William baptised to Robert GRAHAM and Elizabeth WILKINSON in 1789 St Mary's, Robert and Elizabeth marrying Penrith  1784.
For this id: the Robert GRAHAM as a witness to the marriage to Elizabeth STEPHENSON and the illiterate William of St Mary's; Son Thomas' middle name; William's age in 1841 & 1851 "fits"

Against the illiterate William being the same one as married MATTINSON however is his change from being of St Mary's to being of Stanwix - yes? no?
Bit worried by no mention of William being a widower as well.

There could, of course be two William GRAHAM weavers in Caldewgate, St Mary's, but we do know that 1821 William, 1827 Thomas, 1829 Agnes, Wilfred, George and Robert were all living with him in Rigg St in 1841, by which time the earlier children baptised to a William weaver could have either died (where there's another of the same name) or left home, and some of these children do precede his marriage to MATTINSON.

Wonder if William weaver in Willowholme simply means the others are less accurate in the other  addresses 

As to which of my GRAHAM branches this is more likely to join up with, I'll have to recheck, but as I've several, and at least one of them was in Carlisle, I'm still putting my money on this being my connection to my dna match.

Thanks again,

Lorna

[Gan Yam]

Hi

I checked all the births except for the last one for Robert.

I'm not sure if the Stanwix William and the St Mary's William could be the same.  I'm sure that it didn't mention him being a widower, but I can double check that next time I'm there.

The Willowholme William could still be the same family and just as you say may be the way its been recorded.  Its also possible that they always lived in Rigg Street as this is a street that runs off Caldewgate but is not part of Willowholme, which is on the otherside of caldewgate. 

I think times were hard for weavers in the from 1815 see http://www.carlisle.gov.uk/leisure_and_culture/parks_and_open_spaces/park_locations/bitts_park/history_of_bitts_park.aspx

If you want me too check any others or if you want me to check the burials for any of them, just let me know.

J

[redbank]

Hi
My third Great Grand parents were Elizabeth Underwood and William Graham. They both came from Longtown origionally, William was born at a farm called Redbank on the Netherby Estate at Longtown. but married in Carlisle. I know of eight children, Margaret 1821, James 1823, Henry 1826 who had built the County Mews in Carlisle, Andrew 1831, Elizabeth 1827, James 1833, Richard 1838, Catherine no date.
Hope this helps.