Is c. 1870 a date for this photo, please - are these Sailors possibly French?

[sherro47]

This photo was taken by my great-great-great Uncle, Allan Ramsay Hughan, who was shipwrecked off the coast of New Caledonia in his schooner 'Pilot' in 1870, and was rescued then taken from Noumea to Sydney on the French Naval steamer Surcouf. He returned to Noumea and made his living as a photographer until his death in 1883, including a stint as Government photographer. We are trying to figure out when he first started dabbling in photography, and this has made me look at this old photo with new eyes. After enlarging, it looks as though two of the sailors have letters on their caps- one has visible the letters 'Sur', and the other 'ouf'. Or perhaps that's just my wishful thinking...can anyone else pick out with clarity what is written? On the back of the original, which is printed on sepia-coloured, very fragile albumen paper, is written "Sailors play the game cordonnier. These were taken before a very heavy thunderstorm". I feel as though this suggests that the photo was taken on board a ship rather than a studio. If it was taken on board the Surcouf, this photo is one of Hughan's earliest known works, which is very exciting. I would very much appreciate any input re. any aspects of this photo, most especially the 'guestimation' date of 1870.

[cazza59]

I've tried to find a decent photo of the steamer, but no luck.

It looks staged to me and I don't get the "feel" that it was taken on board a ship, just my opinion though.  The wall doesn't look metal and is very high, the ropes are loosely hung over the "wall" which seems unlikely plus would they be sitting around playing games if a major storm was about to hit?  Dunno. 

Caroline

[cazza59]

One of them is also drinking from a bottle which I suspect doesn't contain water.....would this happen if they were on a ship, again, just thinking out loud.  I think it's possible though they may have been in port on leave and your chappy captured the moment.  This wouldn't discount the date if this was the scenario.

Caroline

[sherro47]

Thanks, Caroline...I was always certain that it was staged, but thought the recently discovered comment re. the thunderstorm significant-why would he mention it if they were indoors? Having never been on any ship, let alone a 19th century French war vessel, I haven't a clue as to what would be found on deck...I can't even figure out what surface is underneath what they are sitting on. I have just posted a better quality image to improve visibility on the letters on the caps...that is my last hope! Thank you for your input!

[cazza59]

Hopefully you will get more opinions.  As I said, they could be sitting on a dock somewhere.

I can't get a very clear look at the hats, but the last letter is obviously an "F".

I wonder if it's worth getting some naval gurus on the armed forces page to look at their uniforms to confirm whether they were french.  They certainly have a European look about them.

Sorry, I'm not really being very definitive. 

Caroline

[sherro47]

You've been a wonderful help, Caroline...often I need a sounding board to make me see things clearly..i.e. your statement re. playing games if a storm was brewing, and the background of the photo. I was just so keen to have this photo slot nice and neatly into Allan's story that I didn't consider these things at all. I also wasn't aware there was an armed forces forum-just what I need, both for this photo and two Hughan photos of a man who appears to be an officer of some sort. So you really have been a terrific help!

[jim1]

Cordonnier or cordwainer in English is a shoemaker.
As you can see this is what's going on in this photo.
As for a date I would suggest 1860's-1870's. It's difficult to be more precise as this is not attached to a card which leads me to believe this was for his own private collection rather than resale.
You can see in the foreground there is some fuzziness which is typical of 1860's photography but may have been using older equipment hence the broad date.
As has already been suggested this was taken on land & stage managed.
Many photographers in the far flung reaches of the Empire had to travel to make a living & I'm sure he was selling photos at the same time as this was taken.
Many photographers were interested in collecting photos for posterity, Francis Frith being probably the most well known also many were submitted at exhibitions.
I think it's been well staged as there's lots going on & there's only one chap looking at the camera designed to draw in the viewer.
Best photo I've seen for a long time. Thanks for showing it to us.

jim

[old rowley]

Interesting image. Although at first glance there is nothing to affirm the date period given the style of shoes that one can see does give a small clue that the image could have been taken in the period given. If you look at the sailor sitting on the left, front of the group, he has his feet resting on a two lined block pulley and shows off the soles of his footwear as being the same shape for both feet. At one point there was no left or right for footwear and the squareness of the toe on the shoes indicates this to me as being in the 1870's to 1880's period. All the sailors are wearing ducks so unfortuately there are no dating clues that jump out at me straight away. However as for their origin two of the sailors are wearing the long sleeved marinière (blue striped tops) which was first worn by Breton sailor's.

As for the image it self. I would suggest that this is a clearly staged image with each sailor angled and posed on purpose. Each figure is looking in different directions and there does not appear to be any rhyme nor reason to it until you think of the equipment used and the method used by the photographer. Wanting to get a setting that would resemble a loose natural pose would have been difficult if not impossible in the days of long exposure so to get each subject to look and concentrate on a point in the distance would probably be the answer. But what to get them to do? Setting the rigging would be out because of the blurring that it would cause and the possible sway that the ship would have. Have them below decks resting would also be limited due to the light and also their work. So what better way than to do the setting on shore with a few mats laid down on the pebbled shoreline and have a few of the items that one would use on a daily basis dotted around. The block pulley I have already mentioned but two of the sailors have their hands on belaying pins (also known as Jack Pins or Tack Pins) which would also have been used on a ship with sails. A pen knife lays between two sitting sailors and this again would have been used on a daily basis. And what of the game of cordonnier? No such game exists but what better way to get the sailors to pose but when they are waiting for their shoes to be repaired, as is happening by the sailor in the middle front. Cordonnier in French means shoe maker/maker or repairer.

Hope this take on what is happening within the image helps.

OR.

[cazza59]

Aw so glad the date fits.     Talk about a picture being worth etc etc!

So as they do appear to be French sailors, then there is every reason to believe that the may have been from the Surcouf!  That's what I call a result.  Great news for Sherro! 


Caroline