John Carmichael lookup please

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This raises a number of questions

So, there is no trace of John and Helen having a son William ca.1858 which is when they did have a son Andrew Duncan b.1857, d.1858

Sorry to mess things up!

Annette
     

Hi, its also a bit of a coincidence that the son was called Andrew Duncan carmichael same surname as the sister Elizabeth Duncan so there must be something somewhere to connect the name Duncan.Its stange.

[loobylooayr]

Well ,
I've found something really interesting-
according to www.freecen.org.uk there were only 27 people in Kinrossshire with a surname beginning Carmic**** on the 1841 Census. Most are in Orwell.

Here's one household - Orwell, Milnathort, Old Perth Road

John Carmichael       M   age 25     Slater        born Kinross-shire
Isabel Carmichael     F    age 40                     born Outside Census County
Isabel Carmichael     F    age  3                      born Kinross-shire
James Hall               M   age 15    Ag Lab       born Outside Census County

Unfortunately we can't tell what everyone's relationship is to each other.

But here's another household- (all spellings as transcribed on FreeCen)

John Carmichell       M   age 60    Slater       born Kinross-shire
Christina Carmichell  F   age 50    Domestic Business   born outside Census County  **
Andw Carmichell      M   age 22    Slater       born Kinross-shire
Seusan Carmichell    F   age 15  Cotton Hand Loom Weaver   born Kinross-shire
Ann Carmichell         F   age 20   Lame           born Kinross-shire
David Carmichell      M   age 12  At School           "
James Carmichell    M    age 10  at school            "
Christen Mair         F     age 2                            "

** transcribers note in margin -  Surname Alexander overwritten.

These two groups interested me because-
the men are all slaters
Christina Carmichell's maiden name is Alexander (as confirmed by this birth of Susan -  https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBVP-KY3) 
and there is a son called Andrew.
Alexander and Andrew were names used by John and Helen for the two boys who died.

Could these be related to your John Carmichael? And in fact could the 25 year old John be you man (bearing in mind how people's ages are not reliable on 1841 Census.)

Looby

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Could these be related to your John Carmichael? And in fact could the 25 year old John be you man (bearing in mind how people's ages are not reliable on 1841 Census.)

Looby
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Hi Looby, it is a possibility,don't they sometimes round the ages off in the census up or down, Isabell i don't think would be the wife, but could be a sister or maybe an aunt. I wonder if we could look up Johns  wife Ellen (helen) Couper born 1827-28 if possible, may be able to see if she had siblings.The fact that she was a Couper but her sister is listed as Elizabeth Duncan( unmarried )is a mystery as well. And strange that John and Helens (Ellen) son Andrew has the middle name Duncan. I have double checked William Carmichaels (Dawson)marriage cert and it definitely says Couper (cooper) as his mothers maiden name. What started out simple has now got the mind boggling.I was hoping it may have been a mis spelling of Williams surname Dawson and it was Duncan,which could have put the possibility that the sister Elizabeth had had a child unmarried and they had taken him as their own.But it still doesn't explain Helen and Eliz different surnames, A possibility is maybe the mother of Helen and Eliz had married twice? Or they have just made a error on the census printing.What do you think? Its sounds. strange William Dawson is down as a boarder at 3 yrs old.

[loobylooayr]

Hi spacecookie,
The more I've thought about that term boarder, the more I think that William Dawson/ Lawson is not a nephew. It sounds as if he is a child the couple are caring for, and maybe someone is paying his board. A sort of "foster child"
Looby 

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[quote author=loobylooayr link=topic=677515.msg5224453#msg5224453 date=1392494273
Hi, yes that does sound a more plausible explanation. Do you think you could try and find out any info on Helen (Ellen) Couper if possible?

[loobylooayr]

I've already been looking but haven't found a candidate worth filling you in on yet!

Incidentally, there should definitely should be a birth record for young William if we can get his name deciphered and if it's his correct name. I'm still pulled to this child - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYBZ-M9G

I know Annette says the name on the Census is not Duncan, and I have no doubt she is correct. But sometimes illiegitimate children were known by their fathers names even although it was not on their birth cert. I have an incident of this on my own family tree where a boy born circa 1856 to an unmarried mother appears on the 1861 with his father's surname.

But I could be way off track.

[MonicaL]

Hi All 

In case it helps for the future, there is this birth showing in 1857:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYBZ-M9G ( added - sorry Looby, this is the one you mentioned above!).

It is the only Duncan birth showing for an unmarried mother on the index on family search. If you are looking at Cooper, there is this birth:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYBZ-S56

Not sure if this is too early (searching for Dundee & Cooper between 1856-59).

However, William may not have been an illegitimate birth....and then it gets more confusing!

Monica

[loobylooayr]

Thanks Monica,
Trust there to be a Cooper too!

I'm having a bit of a job connecting Helen Couper and Elizabeth Duncan too.

[loobylooayr]

Ah ha- a bit of a breakthrough.

1841 Census - Dundee address - Overgate - Lowson's Close

Helen Duncan   aged 30         
Helen Duncan  aged  13      Flax Spinner
Robert Duncan   aged 11     Flax   Spinner
Elisbeth Duncan  aged 10
Janet Duncan    aged 8
Andrew Duncan   aged 5
Ann Duncan      aged 2

Spellings as per FreeCen. All born in Angus.

Could this be the sisters Helen Couper and Elizabeth Duncan?
Note the address looks to be the same as the family on 1851 and 1861

Looby