John WILLIAMS (shepherd)-Malpas,Wrexham 1840's

[raychalkley]

On his son John's marriage cert.(may 1870 Wesley Chapel,St.Helens,Lancs) his father was listed as a deceased shepherd.
In all census returns son John records his birth 1843 Sarn Bridge Cheshire.
I have searched for details of both of them in Cheshire with no luck,but have discovered they  :)were probably Welsh from the Malpas,Wrexham area and of the Weslyan faith.
Sorry this is a bit long but I am new to rootschat and not sure how much detail to include in my posts.
Any help or guidance on how to proceed with my search would be appreciated.

[Jo Harding]

Hello raychalkey,

Can I take it that the father's name was also John Williams?

The North Wales BMD has many entries for births registered in Malpas and surrounding areas in 1843 and years close to it.

http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/

Have you tried to find the family in census returns? It might take some time but they should be found in those for 1851 and 1861 at least.

Any further information you have to enable us to find them would be of great help, mother's name, siblings etc.

Jo.

[raychalkley]

Hello Jo,
Yes the fathers name was also John Williams but the only info I have found on him so far is the fact that he was deceased in 1870 at the time of his sons marriage and also that he was a shepherd.
I have tried finding him via the northwalesbdm site and have applied for one cert so far.
Unfortunatly it was the wrong man as his father was not named John.
I also spoke to a very helpful lady at Wrexham Registry Office who told me there might be a match but on the other side of Malpas from Sarn Bridge which I am trying  to investigate and wiil apply for a cert when I have the correct application number.
I have tried to find sibling etc using the census for a family in that area with both father and son being named John Williams but no luck so far.
Its difficult to locate young John because his childhood seems to have been spent in the Sarn Bridge area but by the time of his marriage he was living in Prescot Lancs.
Thanks for your help,
Ray

[RBOD]

Hi Ray,

If you see this message - are you still researching John Williams? I'm also descended from the 1870 marriage, but have had the same problems trying to find his birth in the Sarn Bridge area...

The most likely possibility I've found is a John Williams of the right age in the 1851 census, recorded as born in Tallarn Green (I think the closest settlement to Sarn Bridge? I've spent a lot of time trying to work out where the nearest church might be!). He's living with his grandparents John (a basket maker) and Mary Williams, and their unmarried daughter Jane (c.1806), in Penley, Flintshire. John & Mary were in Penley in 1841, this time with their youngest son James (1829). A John Williams & Mary Morgan were married 31 Dec 1804 just over the border in Ellesmere, Shropshire, where the 1851 census records Mary as being born in c.1779 (John was born in Penley - and perhaps christened there in 1779, son of Ann and yet another John).

There's no sign of father John yet... However, Familysearch lists at least six children for John & Mary christened in Penley, including a John born in 1814 - which would be perfect. Findmypast also lists the marriage of John Williams from Penley (father's name John) to Elizabeth Turner at Loppington in Shropshire in 1841 - again a potentially perfect fit - although I haven't ordered the certificate to check John's occupation. (The BMD index records John Williams and 'Elizabeth Tunna' marrying in Wem district in Q3 1841, Vol 18 Page 242.) I've also found a John Williams (aged 38, 'labourer', born Penley) and his wife Elizabeth (age obscured - 51?, born Grinshill in Shropshire) living in Penley in the 1851 census - but there are no children with them.

I don't know if this is the right family or not for our John - but it looked promising. I've also wondered whether John was an illegitimate son of the older John & Mary's unmarried daughter Jane Williams in the 1851 census - so the 1870 name/occupation was just a cover-up - but then 'shepherd' seems unusually specific to me if it was an invention... Hopefully a birth record will turn up somewhere!

Thanks.
Ronan