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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cambridgeshire => Topic started by: Redroger on Tuesday 05 May 09 12:07 BST (UK)
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Born Kensington 1825, died according to records of his children's marriages between 1886 and 1889. No record of his burial where I expected it to be (Cambridge St. Pauls) Any trace?
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Just because he wasn't described as "deceased" on a marriage cert doesn't mean he was alive! "Father's name?" asks the vicar. "William Brignell" she replied. The vicar didn't ask if he was dead or alive, and she didn't volunteer the information that he was dead. So he wasn't described as deceased on the marriage cert.
Have you found him in the 1881 census, available free on www.familysearch.org? I can't find him. That should have rung alarm bells straight away. I can see a Sarah Brignell widow of the right age and a Mary Brignell dau 25 who appear with William in 1861. Sarah had an 8 year old daughter with her, implying, if it's the right family, that William died 1872-81.
Have you checked www.freebmd.org.uk ?
There's a 41 year old William Brignell died in Cambridge in the September quarter 1874
In 1851 age 24 he gives his birthplace as Kingsland Middlesex, but in 1841 age living in Cambridge he was born in county
David
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The William Brignell who died in 1874 aged 41 was buried 1 August 1874. He lived John Street, Cambridge.
Parish of St. Andrew the Less, Christchurch
Selina
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I should amend my last.
In the PR transcription the name is spelt Brignall but this is a common variation.
It actually states 'of' John Street, so that may not have been his permanent residence I suppose.
Selina
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Could he have died as early as March quarter 1867 - William Brignall, aged 42, Cambridge 3b 355? FreeBMD
Selina
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Roger - did I miss him off the list or did you dismiss him as too early?
William Brignall of Cambridge Place, aged 42, burial St. Paul's 30 January 1867
Selina
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Just checked, he is on the list I sent.
Have you found William in the 1871? If not maybe that is him, the age is right.
Selina
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This is strange Selina, All the marriages you sent me up to 1886 show the brides as daughters of William Brignell Painter, Glazier etc., then in 1889 he is shown as William Brignell deceased. This threw me, as I had previously had him dying 1867 as you say. When did his father b 1789 die?
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I begin to suspect that the William Brignell who died in 1874 was William Brignell snr. bDuxford 1789.From David's information it looks as though there were in fact 2 William Brignells living in Cambridge, one 8 years older than the other, plus possibly William b 1789.The baptism of a William around 1833 in the Cambridge area might shed some light on the situation.
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There is a William Brignell living in Ainsworth Street in 1871 (born Essex), married to a Frances.
By 1881 Frances is a widow so think the 1874 death/burial is that one.
Will think about William 1789 after tea.
Selina
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That seems very likely Selina as the William I believe to have been mine was born in Kensington
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Have you found a baptism for him in Kensington? If not, as I pointed out earlier, there's a discrepancy between censuses as to his birthplace. 1851 says Kingsland, Middlesex, which is in Hackney, East London. One of them has to be a misenumeration, and a 50/50 chance isn't one I would bet on!
There are Brignell baptisms on the IGI in both Hackney and nearby Shoreditch.
The Baptism Index on http://www.cfhs.org.uk/cgi-bin/baptismindex.cgi shows a William R Brignell born Hinxton (next door to Duxford) in 1830, but he might be a complete red herring*
David
* I was right. He is a red herring! The burial index on the same site shows him buried in Hinxton aged 2 in 1832
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Thanks David, I hadn't checked the baptism as I had assumed (you should NEVER DO THIS!) that Kingsland was an error for Kensington, after all they both begin with K! The Brignell baptisms in London do possibly hold the key to another problem i.e. what connection between Brignells in Kent and Cambridgeshire. Another lead at least; thanks again.
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Why do you think there's a connection between Kent and Cambridge?
The name goes way back in both counties on the IGI. Can't they merely be two distinct families which happen to have the same name?
David
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See my post concerning Adolphus Brignell conjuror. He moved into Cambridge Place which of course was full of Brignells, and was there in the 1881 census. If there is a link it's a long way back.
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I don't usually believe in coincidences. This might be the exception that proves the rule
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Hi Roger,
I think the William Brignell aged 67 of Cambridge Place buried 18 April 1851 St. Paul's Church, is your William's father.
That would give a birth year of c. 1784 and in the 1841 his age is given as 55,
giving a birth year of c. 1786, assuming this was rounded down for the census, 1784 would fit.
There does not appear to be a death registered for this William Brignell/Brignall in 1851. There is one for a William Bricknell and I wonder if a error was made.
As the 1851 census was taken on 30 March he should appear on there but as I use Findmypast (who do not yet have the full 1851 available) I can't look for him.
Selina
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HO107/1760 folio 71
Cambridge Place, St Andrew the Less
William Brignell head marr 67 Labourer b Duxford
Hannah Brignell wife 47 b Cambridge
John Brignell son 17 labourer b Cambridge
Richard Brignell son 12 scholar b Cambridge
Alfred Brignell son 7 scholar b Cambridge
David
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That's good David - I think that clinches it then!
Selina
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Thanks David, So he was alive in 1851,now for 1861! Though it might be coincidence about Adolphus remembering my grandmother's attitude to her extended family, I am still extremely doubtful, and think that there is probably a link, if only I can find it. But William is more important.
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Hannah Brignell is a widow in the 1861 census so I think the burial of William in 1851 I gave above is definitely the one you want.
Selina
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That sounds a good bet Selina, thanks again. By the way I intend to visit Cambridge record office soon. Is there a bus link from the station, and how far is it to walk?
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Don't walk. Its too far and you will waste valuable time. I will try and find out about the buses for you, I have a map of them somewhere. I usually bike.
Phone first to make sure you don't go on a busy day and not get access. They close for lunch.
Selina
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Thanks Selina, I shall book well in advance, but don't know when yet. You still use bikes in Cambridge then; using one here (Bournemouth ) would be lethal. I used to bike to work when I lived in Doncaster, packed up in 1986 when I had a very near miss, a car actually touched me in rush hour traffic. I realised that one with my name on it was too close!!
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Yes Roger we are still a big biking place! Now have an excellent undercover bike park in the centre of the city.
You had a really bad experience and I think wise to heed the warning.
Not sure if you know that Cambridge Place is only about 7 minutes walk from the station. However it bears no resemblance whatsoever now to the place your ancestors lived.
Selina
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Again don't know if you have this link
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/cn_news_home/
Click on Messageboards on the left hand side and you will find a category
'Cambridgeshire Memories'. People use this for various things including family history or just local knowledge etc. Might come in handy. You just have to register in order to post.
Selina
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Will do Selina, I must find out whether the Brignells in the decorating business or related to me.
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In my 1930/31 Spaldings Cambridge Directory there are two Builders firms with the name Brignell:
J. Brignell, 42 Newmarket Road, Cambridge (this was quite a large firm)
J. Brignell & Son, 196 Victoria Road, Cambridge.
Selina
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Thanks Selina, Do you have any detail as to when they were founded? My guess is that they are from the same family, and one was formed out of the other after a family dispute; but of course I don't know.
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Hi Roger,
I have looked on Brignell the builders adverts in several old Kelly's but on none of them do they say when established which is a pity.
We know that John Brignell a builder was living at 42 Newmarket Road in 1910 and the firm stayed at that address for very many years.
When our main library eventually re-opens I could look at other directories, or you could do so at the Record Office when you visit.
Will bear that subject in mind anyway.
Selina
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Roger - It does look to me that the John Brignell, builder of 42 Newmarket Road in 1910 (wife Julia, daughters Lily and Eva) is related to your family.
1901 Census
Natal Villa, Brentwood Road, Hornchurch, Romford, Essex
John Brignell Head 30 Bricklayer Worker born Cambridge
Julia Brignell Wife 29 born Glemsford, Suffolk
Lilly I Brignell Daur 6 go to school born Cambridge
Eva N Brignell Daur 2 born Cambridge
Emily Day Visitor 22 Cook born Chesterton
1891 Census
Passage in Staffordshire Street, Cambridge
John Brignell Head 57 Gen. Lab. born Cambridge
Emma Brignell Wife 56 born Cambridge
John Brignell son 20 Bricklayer born Cambridge
William Brignell son 17 Bricklayer's labourer born Cambridge
James Brignell son 15 Fishmonger born Cambridge
Now the John Brignell the elder (aged 57 in 1891) is quite probably John Brignell baptised 26 October 1834 son of William and Hannah Brignell of Cambridge Place.
It appears that John Brignell (the younger) married Julia Cook Q3 1893. In 1891 she was living in 17 Gwydir Street with her family.
Selina
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Thanks again Selina, Can't check my tree at the moment as the tree on this computer (netbook) is not up to date, but will do so in the next few days.
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In 1930/31 the firm were listed as John Brignell, builder, contractor and undertaker.
My next Directory is 1951 when it is John Brignell & Co., Builders, Decorators, Funeral Directors. In 1953 they are just John Brignell & Co., Builders.
The 1965/66 Directory is the first one where they are a Limited company
John Brignell & Co. (Builders) Ltd.
If you put a request on the Cambridgeshire Memories Board using the link I gave previously for the Cambridge News, someone may be able to tell you when the firm ceased trading under that name and who (if anyone) took it over.
Selina
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Thanks Selina, I seem to remember that this, being builders only, caused a complication with my Grandmother's funeral arrangements (Melinda Brignell), she died in 1953, and though I was not greatly involved I have memories of my mother's sisters and my uncles talking about this.
Roger