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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Caroline_d on Saturday 29 October 05 22:40 BST (UK)

Title: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 29 October 05 22:40 BST (UK)
Hello


I've attached a picture which was found near the wreckage of a Canadian WW2 Wellington plane which crashed in Wales 20/11/1944.  The crew were from the Canadian Air Force and none of the crew survived, their names are:

PILOT Sgt CHARLES HAMEL
NAVIGATOR Sgt JULES ROBERT RENE VILLENEUVE
BOMB AIMER F/Off WILLIAM JOSEPH ALLISON
W/Op/AIR GUNNER Sgt JOSEPH PAUL ERNEST BURKE
AIR GUNNER Sgt ARTHUR GROUIX
AIR GUNNER Sgt GERARD DUSABLON


There are some details on the following local web site but I'm not sure of the copywright laws so I've not posted the pictures from it.  One shows a memorial which was built by the locals with the names of the crew.

http://www.clwb-cerdded-ystalyfera.i12.com/pages/mf509.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20060624105454/http://clwb-cerdded-ystalyfera.i12.com/pages/mf509.htm

My grandfather was in his early 20's when the crash happened and lived a village called Ynyswen, near Abercrave,  which is near the site of the crash.  A few days after the crash he hiked up the mountains to take a look and  he found a picture near the wreckage of a young man. 

At the time he didn't know who it belonged to or even how to find out.  He thought it might have been a picture of one of the crew members or another family member of one of the crew.

The picture shows the young man in uniform but I have no idea what regiment etc he is from.  I was hoping that someone here could identify the man or the uniform.

I have tried to find information on the crew members but the only one which has a familiar name is Jules Villeneuve.  There is a large site showing all family members and details of his line and stating that he died in a plane crash in Wales so I know that I've found the right Villeneuve, but I've had no luck on the others.  I was hoping if someone in the Villeneuve family could confirm if it was a relative or not then I could eliminate one name.  I've  emailed the site to see if they have any connections or have any further details but haven't received replies.

If anyone can identify the uniform and the young man in the picture, I would be grateful if you could let me know.  My grandfather has heard of the internet and wondered if it was now time to find anyone out there with any information! 

If there are any family members out there who would like the picture returned I will be more than happy to do so and end a 60 year old mystery to find the identity of the man in the picture.

Sorry this is so long, I just didn't want to miss anything out.

Kind regards
Caroline


WHEN I ORIGINALLY POSTED THIS, I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT THE AMAZING RESPONSE I HAVE HAD FROM ALL IN ROOTSCHAT AND BEYOND.  THE CREW HAVE NOW BEEN IDENTIFIED...IF YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ EVERYTHING..JUST SKIP TO POSTING 206, THEY HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED. BUT WE ARE STILL HOPING FOR FURTHER INFORMATION ON THE MAN IN THE PHOTOGRAPH
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Saturday 29 October 05 22:44 BST (UK)
Hi Caroline,
I'm afraid I can't help with the young man's identity, but I just wanted to say it's a wonderful, thoughtful thing you and your grandfather are doing, trying to find out who this fellow is.  I hope you find out who he belongs to, and that they get some pleasure from knowing that his picture has been kept safe all these years, and that someone cared enough to try to discover who he was.
Makes me all teary, that does  :'(  ;D

Good luck!  I am going to watch this thread and see what happens  :)

Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 29 October 05 22:46 BST (UK)
Thanks Pru for the rapid reply!  I'd do hope someone can help and maybe point me in the right direction to find out.

Regards
Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: old rowley on Saturday 29 October 05 23:00 BST (UK)
Hi Caroline,

Cannot help with the i.d. of the airman in the photograph but can only say that he is dressed in the regular RAF uniform of the time. The shoulder flash that one can just make out sometimes denotes if he was a wireless operator etc. Other than that he was a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force rather than the RAF I am sorry that I can not offer more.

Like Pru I wish you luck on this one and will pop back to see how far you get.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 29 October 05 23:02 BST (UK)
I forgot to add the following which was found on a web site by GPS Walker

DATE OF CRASH 20th NOVEMBER 1944 PARENT UNIT 22 OTU WELLESBOURNE MOUNTFORD THE AIRCRAFT WAS ON A NIGHT TRAINING EXERCISE WHEN THE STARBOARD ENGINE DEVELOPED PROBLEMS THE PLANE STARTED TO LOSE HEIGHT OWING TO ICING AND STRUCK CAREG GOCH IN THE BLACK MOUNTAIN GR SN 817168 THERE IS A MEMORIAL AT THE CRASH SITE FOR THE SIX AIRMEN THAT DIED

Maybe someone will know if the regiment.

Thanks again
Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: liverpool annie on Saturday 29 October 05 23:07 BST (UK)


Prue !

Any chance you can do something with the photo? that would be nice - for Caroline to pass on both!

Annie  :)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 29 October 05 23:08 BST (UK)
Thanks old rowley

At least I now know that I need to concentrate in the Canadian Air Force direction.

Appreciate your input
.
Caroline


Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: casalguidi on Saturday 29 October 05 23:29 BST (UK)
Hi Caroline

Have you tried the Canadian War Memorial site .................. might give a bit more info on the men ???

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem

Casalguidi
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: old rowley on Sunday 30 October 05 00:09 BST (UK)
Hi Caroline,

Have now found out that all the crew on board Wellington MF509 at the time of the crash were Canadian's. Have also found out that there is a full photograph of the crew standing next to the aircraft still inexistance which may help to identify your airman. I will try to find out more over this weekend for you.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: loo on Sunday 30 October 05 00:23 BST (UK)
The Royal Canadian Legion used to (and perhaps still does) produce a magazine, the name of which escapes me at the moment (The Last Post, is it?).  They typically would have listings of people trying to find other people, and I'm betting they would be more than happy to run this photo with the info in an effort to locate the person in question.
Also the Canadian War Museum is recently opened in Ottawa and may be able to help.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Sunday 30 October 05 00:47 BST (UK)
Just a bit of a start, these were only boys! what a waste.
                                      Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: liverpool annie on Sunday 30 October 05 00:52 BST (UK)


Denn!

It seems like I say that - over and over - they are SO young !
you're right - what a waste !
So many of them too!

Annie
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Sunday 30 October 05 01:29 BST (UK)
A bit more
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Sunday 30 October 05 01:35 GMT (UK)
Annie - since you asked so nicely  ;D  I'll have a play with it.
P
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Sunday 30 October 05 02:55 GMT (UK)
Sure I made his right jawline too hollow
                                 Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Sunday 30 October 05 03:22 GMT (UK)
Here we are.  There wasn't much to work with (Denn you would appreciate that) but I did my best.  He looks about 12 years old  :'(

Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: liverpool annie on Sunday 30 October 05 03:33 GMT (UK)

God love him!

These babies go to war - just to give us a better life - and what do we do ? ..........
I was just reading obits for boy soldiers one 15 and one 16 .... !
Takes my breath away .... !

Annie

Nice photos Denn and Prue - I'm sure the family will apreciate them !!
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Sunday 30 October 05 05:37 GMT (UK)
Thanks Annie,
I only hope he can be identified!  I always feel sad when I see photos of soldiers without names...
One other thing...how on earth did he keep that hat on his head ???  ;D

Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: liverpool annie on Sunday 30 October 05 06:52 GMT (UK)


They didn't even have Velcro then!!

What a nice face he has ... ! You guys have smartened him up nicely!

Thanks

Annie
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Sunday 30 October 05 07:29 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline,

You might try contacting the two major television stations in Canada.

Their websites are

http://www.cbc.ca/

http://www.ctv.ca/

Also the 'Montreal Gazette' newspaper at

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/index.html

The 'Royal Canadian Legion' also has a website as well
http://www.legion.ca/

If you do decide to submit this information, I have looked up their details along with family member names, so that you can give them as much information as possible.

JOSEPH ARTHUR EDMOND  GROULX
Service Number:    R/111476
Age:    22
Force:    Air Force
Unit:    Royal Canadian Air Force
Son of Arthur and Alexandrine Groulx, of Hull, Province of Quebec, Canada.

JOSEPH LIONEL UNDERIC  DU SABLON
Service Number:    R/174038
Age:    20
Force:    Air Force
Unit:    Royal Canadian Air Force
Son of Lionel Olivier and Mary Lea Du Sablon, of De Gaspe, Montreal, Province of Quebec, Canada.

 JOSEPH PAUL ERNEST  BURKE
Service Number:    R/206904
Age:    20
Force:    Air Force
Unit:    Royal Canadian Air Force
Son of William and Dorine Burke, of West Bathurst, Gloucester Co., New Brunswick. Canada.

WILLIAM JOSEPH  ALLISON
Service Number:    J/20861
Age:    28
Force:    Air Force
Unit:    Royal Canadian Air Force
Son of William Earle Allison and Mary Ruth Allison, of Montreal, Province of Quebec. Canada.

JULES ROBERT RENE  VILLENEUVE
Service Number:    R/199834
Age:    22
Force:    Air Force
Unit:    Royal Canadian Air Force    
Son of Jean B. Villeneuve and Clara Villeneuve, of Verdun, Province of Quebec. Canada.

  CHARLES  HAMEL
Service Number:    J/92169
Age:    21
Force:    Air Force
Unit:    Royal Canadian Air Force
Son of Dr. Paul Hamel, and of Bertha Ellen Hamel, of Montreal, Province of Quebec, Canada.

With Remembrance Day coming up, there is an excellent chance of the television stations, as well as the major newspapers in Canada posting this picture with your story.
Here a some of the national newspapers.

National Post
http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/index.html

Globe & Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/

The Sun (I have given you the link for the Toronto paper, although you can ask them to place it in all their papers across Canada.)
http://www.torontosun.com/

I think that this is a wonderful thing you are doing. Good Luck!

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 30 October 05 09:24 GMT (UK)
Thanks Denn & Prue for what you have done to the picture, I'm amazed with what you've done to it.

I knew Rootschat was the place to get info thanks all for the tips so far.  I will email the newspapers as recommended and keep you posted.

Regards
Caroline

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: RobHam on Sunday 30 October 05 10:07 GMT (UK)
I hope that this map link works,  contains rather a long URL.  You may need to cut and paste it into your browser,  and also suggest zooming back to a lower scale map. 


Location Map of Crash
 (http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=282000.175285142&Y=216000.038607351&width=500&height=300&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=freegaz&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&zm=0&scale=25000&up.x=188&up.y=8)

It should show the map reference.   The crash location is about where the 'c' is in the word 'Goch' on the map.

Perhaps 15 years ago I was a member of the local ramblers association here is Swansea and walked to this location,  quite a trek to get to it.





Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Sunday 30 October 05 12:21 GMT (UK)
Could this be the aircrew - they are O.T.U.and R.C.A.F. how about the third from left.
                                 Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 30 October 05 12:46 GMT (UK)
Great photograph Denn, where did you find it?  At least I know I can rule out William Joseph Allison, as he was 28 so older than the rest and must have been the pilot.

Thanks
Caroline

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Sunday 30 October 05 13:00 GMT (UK)
I'm still working on this, but I don't think that pic is Of our crew - it is 408 SQDN who were based at either Leeming or Linton on Ouze. I'm not sure thou what our Sqdn was - though they were based at Wellesbourne.
                                                 Denn.
    Hamel was the pilot
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: woodensue on Sunday 30 October 05 13:11 GMT (UK)
What a fantastic effort you guys are putting into finding out this mystery, It makes me feel good as I have relative in simaler situation 24 year old whose plane came down on a training exercise in Canada, the people there to this day hold services for those boys who lost their lives,
Keep going will look forward to reading rest of replies.

http://www.angelfire.com/on/stpaulsmounthope/

Good luck

Sue


Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 30 October 05 14:38 GMT (UK)
I've got another picture but it wont load as I'm being told it's too big...

any suggestions??
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Kevwood on Sunday 30 October 05 14:42 GMT (UK)
If you google IRFANVIEW.
Download it.
it is a free photo tool.

Then when you install, click image then resize/resample from the menu choose half and then see what happens.

Kev
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 30 October 05 14:52 GMT (UK)
I can't belive I'd forgot I had this picture on my old hard drive!  A cousin who lives near the crash site and come across this picture and only now I've remembered.

It is believed to be of the crew...

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 30 October 05 14:59 GMT (UK)
I've had to resize, but it's so small.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 30 October 05 15:02 GMT (UK)
I hope this finally works!
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Kevwood on Sunday 30 October 05 15:11 GMT (UK)
Bigger but not better.

Kev. ;D
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 30 October 05 15:13 GMT (UK)
last try

ON THE BOTTOM OF THE PICTURE IT SAYS..."ERNEST, THIRD FROM LEFT"  I do not know who has written this and cannot confirm if it is correct"
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: manmack on Sunday 30 October 05 19:48 GMT (UK)
caroline,all the crew apart from young joe burke came from quebec,joe burke was from new brunswick,i reckon if you put that in the quebec papers you will be successful,gerard dusablons real name was,joseph,lionel,underic du sablon,and arthur grouix is grouLx,i tried seeing if their ages would give a clue,but no chance,two were 20,two were 21,one was 22 and william,allison was 28,dont think its william,but it could be any of the rest,good luck caroline,ime another one rooting for you,mack
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: manmack on Sunday 30 October 05 19:50 GMT (UK)
caroline,my moneys on the lad 1st right,definately,mack
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Sunday 30 October 05 20:00 GMT (UK)
I agree with mack, the fellow on far right looks like a great match...although the first at left might also fit, possibly.  Bit hard to tell, but definitely one of those two!

Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: mc8 on Sunday 30 October 05 20:35 GMT (UK)
I agree with mack, the fellow on far right looks like a great matchPrue
I'd agree with that
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 30 October 05 20:53 GMT (UK)
It's great that you've all taken the time to help.

Further to previous postings, I've just checked another site and found some of the ranks held, not sure if this will help but someone might recognise something from the uniforms etc...

Hamel = PO
Burke = sgt
Villeneuve = sgt
Groulx = sgt
Allison = FL

I cant find Du Sablon at the moment.

I've posted the site below in case anyone else is searching etc.

http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/allied/canadianarmy/index.html

Caroline

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 30 October 05 21:02 GMT (UK)
found Du Sablon = sgt
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Sunday 30 October 05 22:48 GMT (UK)
Sorry I had to have a sleep,
       Grouix - Sgt gunner
       Du Sablon - Sgt gunner
       Burke - W.O. (that could be either warrant officer or wireless operator)/gunner
       Allison _ Sgt bomb aimer
       Hamel _ Pilot officer
        All from No 22 Sqdn O.T.U. (operational training unit) although I am not 100% sure what AN O.T.U. is, it may be a final training unit before the real stuff?
                                               Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Sunday 30 October 05 23:46 GMT (UK)
Joseph Du Sablon is buried at Chester cemetary
     details are here
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=1526188
     I an looking further into this site
                                     Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Monday 31 October 05 00:05 GMT (UK)
A couple of ideas:

1.  The National Archives (UK) might have files relating to the crash.  The NA of Australia has files on air crashes both military and civilian, going back decades.

2.  What institution woudl have the service records of these fellows? Canadian Archives?  They might have photographs on their files.

Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Monday 31 October 05 00:23 GMT (UK)
Correction to the rank of William J Allison VAC gives him as Flt lt
All are buried at Blacon - Chester
                                            Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Monday 31 October 05 02:25 GMT (UK)
Found this but email adress not valid.
Re: wellington bomber crash 1944 Wales
WW2 discussion forum
From: andrewsimmonds@msn.com
Remote Name: 195.92.168.172
Date: 04 Oct 2002
Time: 19:47:38


Comments
mf509, 22 otu. all canadians. photo of crew in front of aircraft exists. full details and photos if you would like them
at the following site
http://www.macksites.com/_disc1/0000009e.htm
                               Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Monday 31 October 05 10:40 GMT (UK)
Still trying,
       This one has got me. Maybe because having joined the R.A.F. as a young man, I realise that it is only fate that prevented a conflict that could have meant both me and my younger brother being in the same position as those youths.Which brings me to another point the photo is not neccesarily of one of the crew - if he had a relation in the force the chances are that it could be thier photo'
         Next point - it seems that although these young men gave thier life I don't find  record of any award. What I did find andfor future reference it is a very comprehensive list of RCAF awards, it gives full details of the carreers of the recipients.
http://www.airforce.ca/index2.php3?page=wwii
                                                   Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Monday 31 October 05 10:57 GMT (UK)
Denn you are being a great detective!  You're right about the pic not necessarily being of one of the crew.  It would probably make more sense to carry a pic of someone else, not yourself!

Would be great if someone could find the service records of this crew.  I think that would be the key.

Off to bed now - looking forward to seeing what progress you all make while I'm asleep!  ;)

Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: manmack on Monday 31 October 05 12:18 GMT (UK)
denns right,it could be one of the crews kid brothers,you will still have to find the crew member in order to find his kid brother,my moneys still on the lad on the right,i cant speak for the rest of you folks but i think this is going to have a good ending,mack
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 31 October 05 18:36 GMT (UK)
Denn,,,I had come across the Simmonds site a when I started this and had no luck with a reply.  There was also another posting by someone called Tina who I contacted and had some details, she had hiked in the mountains and came across the momument and posted on a notice board if anyone had information.   

I have emailed a number of places suggested here and have had a reply from the Canadian Legion who said the following:
"I regret that there is little that the Legion can do in this matter. I will however pass your e-mail to the Legion Magazine to see if anything can be done there.

Bob Butt
Director Communications"

The Canadian War Museum said the following:

"I will ask our (Friends of the Canadian War Museum) researcher how best to assist you in identifying the young airman in the photograph. He may be able to assist directly or point you in the right way.
 
Cheers, Bill Smith, FCWM Chief of Friends Services and Deputy Secretary"

I will keep you posted on others as they reply.

Denn, There is another site, which you may come across...I've emailed him in case he has info...I think this was the guy my cousin contacted previously and either him or Tina supplied the photo of all the crew (memory fails me at the moment!).  His site is:

 http://www.gpswalker.co.uk/wellington.htm

he has a number of details on other crash sites...so maybe others searching might be interested to take a look.

It is possible that the picture was of a family member...this was in my first posting as a possinility or maybe they had the picture to pass on etc but the only connection we have to go on at the moment is the plane crew...so I guess it's a place to start.

Another site I found had all Canadian Servicemen listed...so it might be useful for others. 

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=collections/books/bww2

thanks everyone for your great efforts I can't belive the response so far...

Caroline




Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Monday 31 October 05 22:43 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline

Just to let you know. I have found a family named Burke still living in Bathurst, New Brunswick. (It is the only one.) I will PM you his address, just in case all else fails. He may know who this boy is, or may know how to get in touch with the other families. There were so many of the other names living in Montreal, that it would have been too much to try and get in touch with all.

The Canadian Legion's magazine has done this before, so it is likely, that they will do it for you. Again, if you have any problems getting the television stations or newspapers to take an interest, let me know and I will see what I can do from this end.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Monday 31 October 05 22:51 GMT (UK)
Thank's for that Caroline.
         I am still trying, (although I'm not as confident as Mack - for reasons I shall explain later).
         I am currently waiting for a reply from Tina, who you have already contacted. I am also waiting for replies from several other people or organizations. I have also been invited to post on the following site

The only thing we can do is to add the details of the crew along with the photo to the site in the hope that someone may be able to help.
If you wish us to do so then please let us know

Regards
Len Smith
(webmaster)
NOTE THAT THE SITE HAS NOW CHANGED
We suggest you enter the site through the HOME PAGE ONLY at http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/  
          
        Now Mack! my reasons for being pessimistic about this outcome (although I hope I'm wrong)
   1.      being young men it is doubtfull if they have any descendant's, while any living relatives may by now have little or no contact with ex servicemens organizations.
   2.      As I said previously it appears that because the were on a training exersise they received no award or citation ( I'd like to think I am wrong here once again)
  3.      There are sites or organizations associated with bomber, fighter and coastal command but these guys were presumably in training command so had no background so to speak - there may be one exeption to this, I would imagine that william allison having reached the rank of flt lt may possibly have had some previous .

       One more minor point, while working on the photo, I could see no badges or rank other than the Shoulder flashes - this indicates that the pic was taken while in basic training.
                                    Many thanks to all
                                                   Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Tuesday 01 November 05 04:17 GMT (UK)
Hi
 I had another look at Carolines picture of the crew, Why has no one noticed that the third from the left is called Ernest ? - possibly Joseph Paul Ernest Burke! 20yrs old - sgt wireless op'/gunner.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: manmack on Tuesday 01 November 05 11:43 GMT (UK)
the plane they were flying was MF509, MF is the code lettering for 108 and 280 squadrons,its also the code for the 59th operations training unit but this is a night fighter training unit,the unit they were in when they were killed was the 22 operations training unit,this unit used wellington Mk III DF549s and DF578s,that means the plane they were killed in which was MF509 was their own aircraft,so they could have been training for night operations or a specific mission and not under training as a new crew,they always used their own plane when practising for a mission and not one of the training squadrons aircraft because thats the one they will be using in action,its likely they had only been on daylight bombing missions and were under training for nighttime bombing,denns got a point about the photo,you can eliminate ernest,hes not the lad in the picture,well spotted denn,mack
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Tuesday 01 November 05 13:16 GMT (UK)
Apologies all...I thought I'd noted this on an old message when I posted the picture about Ernest third from the left!  Although I don't know who wrote it and if if it correct. 

I've found some information in New Brunswick, Canada, they have archives etc on the locals, nothing on Ernest but there is details of the graves of his parents, where they are buried etc  and others with the same surname, maybe other relatives.  I've emailed hoping they have further information in their archives maybe Ernest has a sibling still alive who can identify for sure and then eliminate.

Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Tuesday 01 November 05 13:33 GMT (UK)
If we are going on the assumption that the picture is one of the crew..then how about eliminating William Allison as he was 28?  All the others were 20 or 21 and the guy in the picture looks very young,  Even if the picture was taken a year or 2 before he would never look around 28. The only problem with this is that if it's a photograph of maybe a family member then it throws out the theory...
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Tuesday 01 November 05 14:08 GMT (UK)
I have spent quite sometime on this site which archives Canadian news reports during the war yet it seems strange that our boys weren't listed among the R.C.A.F. lists of war dead, in fact there appears to be no report in any of the papers?
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Tuesday 01 November 05 14:12 GMT (UK)
I have spent quite sometime on this site

http://tinyurl.com/cyfba

which archives Canadian news reports during the war yet it seems strange that our boys weren't listed among the R.C.A.F. lists of war dead, in fact there appears to be no report in any of the papers?
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Tuesday 01 November 05 16:36 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline

I sent the city of Bathurst, New Brunswick, an e-mail. I hope you don't mind, but I also sent copies of the photo's. I have told them your story, and hopefully they will get back to me.

The more I look at the photo's, the more convinced I am that the photo is of either J.P. Ernest Burke, or a relative. The photo of the crew, specifically centers on Ernest, and they have the same hair, facial features, etc. in both photos.

Because the city of Bathurst only has one Burke family living there, and that is exactly where J.P.E. Burke was from, I thought that it was a very good possibility that this was a family member.

Because I have written to them, during business hours, I am hoping to hear from them either today or tomorrow. I will let you know as soon as I do.

Janice

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Tuesday 01 November 05 19:12 GMT (UK)
Janice, I emailed New Brunswick Provincial Archives etc last night....site is below, is this the same one you emailed?

http://archives.gnb.ca/Archives/Default.aspx?L=EN

I had a standard email reply saying it could take 2 to 3 weeks for any research questions.  Maybe as you're a "native" you might get something back quicker.

Denn, you have put in some hours on this....it is strange that there is no record at all on them so far.  You'd think that there would be some information besides just the entry in the WW2 Book of Remembrance 

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Tuesday 01 November 05 20:44 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline,

The site I e-mailed, is their municipal government office. I gave them the name and address of the Burke family living there, along with the phone number. I figured that elected officials might want to do a good deed. I have not heard anything back, but I figure they will get back to me within a few days at most. If not, I can send them another message. Most if not all of our communities here do a Remembrance Day service, and I thought that this would be a good 'Human Interest' story for them.

I will let you know as soon as I hear from them.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Tuesday 01 November 05 20:46 GMT (UK)
I've found an article where  Senator Earl Scofield was interviewed for Mets Voyager ......I can't seem to paste it...but in it he talk about his time in the Canadian Air force and that his 4  brothers served in WW2.  It says that 2 step brothers were Henry and Jules Villeneuve, Henry was a soldier and Jules was in the Canadian Air Force and is buried in England (so it's worth a follow up as he may be able to identify the line-up of the crew...at least point out Jules).

http://www.metisnation.org/metisVOYAGEUR/mv05may.pdf

scroll to page 11 for his story (it's on the right column)

I'm trying to find an email or contact details for him.  Janice, is this someone you've heard of?

I thought to post in case anyone else has come across him and I didn't want to double up on info sent to him.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: RobHam on Tuesday 01 November 05 22:09 GMT (UK)
On Remembrance Sunday 13th November,  the West Glamorgan Ramblers and Gower Society are conducting a joint walk (strenuous and about 10 miles) in the Black Mountains to visit at least one of the Aircraft Wreck sites as part of there standard walks program.   Not too sure if they intend taking in this particular wreck (there are three or four others). 

If anyone wants more details then PM me.   I have a contact phone number for the Walks leader who can give more details.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Tuesday 01 November 05 22:41 GMT (UK)
Caroline here is the piece that you couldn't paste, being a step brother, it may be that Ville's remaining family are called Schofield

When I turned 18, I volunteered for the
Royal Canadian Air Force, and took the
oath of allegiance with 26 other men at the
theater in Timmins, Ontario. I went to Edmonton;
Mount Joli, Quebec; attended
McGill University in pre-air crew training
for the Air Force and graduated from the
crew course. Next I went to Three Rivers,
Quebec; Montreal; and Lachine, then to
England to train on two engine Wellington
bombers, then to a heavy conversion unit
to train on Halifax four engine bombers.
When that was completed we were sent to
active duty on squadrons of Halifax
bombers. This bomber weighed 35 tons
when loaded with bombs, seven to eight
men, and 2200 gallons of 100 octane gas. I
completed 17 missions over Germany
bombing targets mostly at night. I was
posted to 415 Swordfish Squadron at Eastmoor,
Yorkshire. My mother’s brother
Roger Chartrand, from The Pas, Manitoba,
was at the same base but he was at 432
Squadron called Leaside. During these war
years there were four Scofield brothers in
uniform and on active duty over seas. My
brother Cecil is buried in Belgium. My two
step brothers were also in the service.
Henry Villeneuve was in the army, and
Jules Villeneuve was in the Air force; he is
buried in England.On January 4, 1945, while attempting to
take off for a bombing mission, we left the
runway and passed between stockpiles of
bombs. At a speed of over 100 miles per
hour, we crashed into the trees on the far
side of the air drome. At impact, I was
thrown out of the tail turret and flew
through the air and landed on a fallen tree.
I had hurt my legs and my back. I was
blown right out of my flight boots, but got
up and ran until my legs could no longer
support me. Our bomber exploded and
burned up. All of our crew got out with
only burns and minor injuries. On C

                                 Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Tuesday 01 November 05 23:11 GMT (UK)
Thanks Denn,

The Villeneuve family were the first I found on the Net.  There is a large family web site going back hundreds of years.  They all have reference to the racing drivers Jacques and Gilles etc.  It was on one of the sites that I found Jules Villeneuve and the information about his crash.  His parents and family going back generations were listed.  I thought I'd get lucky but I'd emailed the web masters for on both sites a few times and never received a reply.

http://www.geocities.com/MathurinVilleneuve/

They concentrate on the Villeneuve and Amoyt sections of the family.  I was hoping in the beginning someone would have information but it was not to be.

I've sent an email which hopefully should find it's way to Earl Scofield...fingers crossed!

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: gransworld on Tuesday 01 November 05 23:14 GMT (UK)
I  read  this  with  interest  and   maybe  try  going  to  this  site  and  post  a  message   it's  a  long  shot  but  worth a  try.  Many  service  men  and  families  visit  this  site.
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/nshighregmuseum/

Also  my  husband  said  this  would  not  be  pilot  or  navagator   he's  not  wearing  wings.  Could  also  be  a  brother  of  one  of  the  crew.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Wednesday 02 November 05 01:05 GMT (UK)
Yes you're correct, I believe it is a picture taken during recruit training.
      In the meantime I did find one news clip but it didn't give any more info' than we allready have.

Air Force Casualties
Ottawa, flee. 1S.-The Department of
National Defense for Air today issued
casualty list No. 1069 of the Royal Canadian
Air Force, showing next of kin of
those named from Ontario as follows;
OVERSEAS
Rilled on Active Service
ALLISON, William Joseph, FO. Montreal
.
BURKE, Joseph Paul Ernest, Sgt.
Bathurst, N.B .
DUSABLON, Joseph Lionel, Sgt,- Montreal
.
FARLETTE. Joseph Rodolphe, PO:
Nicholas Farlette (father),; 82 Walter
St ., Ottawa .
GROULX, Joseph Arthur. Sgt, Hull,
Que.
HAMEL, Charles. Sgt. Westmount, Que.
VILLENEUVE, Jules Robert, Sgt. Vetdun,
Que.


also had a reply as follows


We will be more than happy to add your request to the site for you.
Due to the vast amount of requests we receive however, it can take up to 3 weeks to process your request.

We will of course let you know once your details have been included.

Regards
Len Smith
(webmaster)
NOTE THAT THE SITE HAS NOW CHANGED
We suggest you enter the site through the HOME PAGE ONLY at http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/  

                                               Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Wednesday 02 November 05 10:32 GMT (UK)
I seem to have come to a "brickwall" (only a temorary one I hope), but here are the  service numbers and next of kin of the airmen


Name:   BURKE, JOSEPH PAUL ERNEST
Initials:   J P E
Nationality:   Canadian
Rank:   Sergeant (W.Op./Air Gnr.)
Regiment:   Royal Canadian Air Force
Age:   20
Date of Death:   20/11/1944
Service No:   R/206904
Additional information:   Son of William and Dorine Burke, of West Bathurst, Gloucester Co., New Brunswick. Canada.
Casualty Type:   Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:   Sec. A. Grave 315.
Cemetery:   CHESTER (BLACON) CEMETERY



Name:   GROULX, JOSEPH ARTHUR EDMOND
Initials:   J A E
Nationality:   Canadian
Rank:   Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Regiment:   Royal Canadian Air Force
Age:   22
Date of Death:   20/11/1944
Service No:   R/111476
Additional information:   Son of Arthur and Alexandrine Groulx, of Hull, Province of Quebec, Canada.
Casualty Type:   Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:   Sec. A Grave 401.
Cemetery:   CHESTER (BLACON) CEME



Name:   DU SABLON, JOSEPH LIONEL UNDERIC
Initials:   J L U
Nationality:   Canadian
Rank:   Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Regiment:   Royal Canadian Air Force
Age:   20
Date of Death:   20/11/1944
Service No:   R/174038
Additional information:   Son of Lionel Olivier and Mary Lea Du Sablon, of De Gaspe, Montreal, Province of Quebec, Canada.
Casualty Type:   Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:   Sec. A. Grave 229.
Cemetery:   CHESTER (BLACON) CEMETERY



Name:   ALLISON, WILLIAM JOSEPH
Initials:   W J
Nationality:   Canadian
Rank:   Flight Lieutenant (Air Bomber)
Regiment:   Royal Canadian Air Force
Age:   28
Date of Death:   20/11/1944
Service No:   J/20861
Additional information:   Son of William Earle Allison and Mary Ruth Allison, of Montreal, Province of Quebec. Canada.
Casualty Type:   Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:   Sec. A. Grave 143.
Cemetery:   CHESTER (BLACON) CEMETERY



Name:   VILLENEUVE, JULES ROBERT RENE
Initials:   J R R
Nationality:   Canadian
Rank:   Sergeant (Nav.)
Regiment:   Royal Canadian Air Force
Age:   22
Date of Death:   20/11/1944
Service No:   R/199834
Additional information:   Son of Jean B. Villeneuve and Clara Villeneuve, of Verdun, Province of Quebec. Canada.
Casualty Type:   Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:   Sec. A. Grave 57.
Cemetery:   CHESTER (BLACON) CEMETERY



Name:   HAMEL, CHARLES
Initials:   C
Nationality:   Canadian
Rank:   Pilot Officer (Pilot)
Regiment:   Royal Canadian Air Force
Age:   21
Date of Death:   20/11/1944
Service No:   J/92169
Additional information:   Son of Dr. Paul Hamel, and of Bertha Ellen Hamel, of Montreal, Province of Quebec, Canada.
Casualty Type:   Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:   Sec. A. Grave 358.
Cemetery:   CHESTER (BLACON) CEMETERY

                                        Denn


Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 02 November 05 19:10 GMT (UK)
I had an old posting from the same site you emailed and had the same response..so hopefully2 enquiries may help with them looking.

I've also emailed the following sites to see if they have info.  I found the names of the crew listed on a virtual memorial.  There is a site called Bombercrew.com which I have emailed.

http://www.bombercrew.com/main.htm

Another site I've emailed is Ex Air Gunners

http://www.angelfire.com/trek/rcaf/exag0103.html

Someone must know something somewhere!


Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: liverpool annie on Wednesday 02 November 05 19:20 GMT (UK)


Has anybody tried Genes Reunited?

http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/

I'm not a member though - is anybody else?

Annie  ::)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 02 November 05 19:23 GMT (UK)
Great idea!

I'm a member and will give it a try.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: gransworld on Wednesday 02 November 05 19:44 GMT (UK)
Great  Idea  I'm  not  a  member  either    wish  I  was
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Wednesday 02 November 05 22:30 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline,

The mayor of Bathurst, N.B. is going to look into this, and check with the Burke family living there, to see if they are related to 'Ernest Burke', who was killed.

He will get back to me as soon as he has any information.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Wednesday 02 November 05 23:06 GMT (UK)
       I am hoping to get this onto several Canadian local Radio statons, will keep you all posted.
        With all of you guys chasing this up I feel far more confident than I did a few posts ago - thanks to you all.
                                           Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Thursday 03 November 05 17:45 GMT (UK)
Hello

I thought I'd post some replies I've received today so you can trace the progress and will save someone else emailing etc.

~~~~~~~~---

[font=Verdana]Thnak you for your email and very interesting story. I have a couple of ideas that may be of some help, are you in Canada or the UK?

Regards,

Matt Lacroix
www.bombercrew.com
[/font]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings Caroline,
 
As Editor of the Ex-Air Gunner's Newsletter Short Bursts, I will post your request in the December Short Bursts Page.
We might get some response. The Newsletter goes out to the various Ex-AG Branches across Canada, it is also read by Veterans in the UK , Australia, New Zealand, U.S.A.
 
Cheers,
 
John and Doreene Moyles.
moyles@sasktel.net     

--------------------------------------------------------------

Janice has also been in touch with the mayor of New Brunswick and he is going to visit a family with the surname of Burke still in the area.  So we are waiting for a reply to that too.








Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: MJP on Thursday 03 November 05 19:31 GMT (UK)
Hi all - what a great mystery!  I hope you are successful. 

I don't know if this would help, but the service records for these men are available from the Library and Archives of Canada.  WWII records are not open for public viewing, but you can request copies from the Archives.  There are some restrictions on WWII service records, but because these men have been dead for more than 20 years and they died in service, there are no access restrictions on who can view their records. 

More details and an application form are available here
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/genealogy/022-909.007-e.html
There is no mention of cost, but I would think there must be a charge for the photocopies.

I happen to be going to the Archives tomorrow (Friday) evening.  Should I drop off a request?  Those of you who have been following this know more about it than me.  Would service records be useful?  Would they be needed for all the men, or one or two in particular?

Let me know what you think...

Martha
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Thursday 03 November 05 20:55 GMT (UK)
Ooooh Martha, I was hoping someone would finally pick up on my idea of trying the Archives  ;D ;D ;D
I for one would love you to go - I'm sure the others will feel the same, but will let them speak for themselves.

Cheers  :)
Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: MJP on Thursday 03 November 05 21:12 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the enthusiasm Prue!

But what am I asking for?  I will not be able to look at the file myself, only request photocopies.  They offer something called a "genealogy package" which gives copies of selected documents that highlight the person's service.  Does that sound like what we need?

And, as I said, there is no mention of cost on the website. I will try to find out before ordering.  If it's going to cost me $20 per serviceman, I'm afraid I won't be ordering all of them  ;D  Who are the more likely candidates/priorities?

Martha
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Thursday 03 November 05 21:27 GMT (UK)
Well, probably what we need to find out more than anything is if there is a photo of each person.  On Oz WW2 records each person has a small mugshot attached to their service file.  It might be hard for you to find that out without being able to view the original files, though.  Does the Canadian Archives have reference officers who assist the public with enquiries?  It might be worth talking to one, and explaining what it is that you're doing - they might have a look on your behalf.

What do others think?
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Thursday 03 November 05 21:55 GMT (UK)
I've found some info from the Canadian Archives. As you can see it says they try to answer in 30 days.  I'm hoping we can resolve this before that! 

MJP. thanks for the offer of finding out info during your visit tomorrow.  I'm happy to cover the costs of the documents and obviously don't want to put you to any expense. 

I have no idea what items they can produce etc.  so if they don't have pictures then we really will be no further in our research as we have their parents names and service numbers already.  Maybe you can just enquire tomorrow as to what records they will supply.  I've noticed they accept fax requests so I can fax them with a request if we know they can help...so would be grateful if you could find out if they supply pictures and then we can go from there.  I'm hoping some of the people I have emailed will get back to me shortly so maybe we can hold off ordering from the archives for now.

Are there others out there who know more?  Besides the info listed below from the archives site, I don't know what else they can provide.  MjM, I will PM you about this more.

This is what they have to say:

We try to answer inquiries within 30 days; however, our Personnel Records Unit receives over 2,000 inquiries a month, which can affect response time. Priority service is given to people who require documentation to prove thatthey qualify for pensions, allowances, claims and other benefits.

For projects involving research in a large number of files, the request will be assessed by our staff to determine if current resources can accommodate such an extensive commitment.

How to Send an Inquiry Concerning Your Own or Another Individual's Records
Your request must be signed.
To identify a file, we require surname, full given name(s), date of birth, and service number or social insurance number.
If you do not know the date of birth, service number or S.I.N. (social insurance number), secondary information (e.g., the names of next of kin, postings, dates of service, place of enlistment) can assist in identifying the correct individual.
Consult the section below on Access Restrictions.
Please specify what document(s) you require. If you are doing family history research, we recommend that you request a "genealogy package," which will include copies of selected documents from the file that highlight/summarize the individual's service.
We do not accept e-mail inquiries for these records.
We do not accept e-mail inquiries for these records. Inquiries must be sent by mail or fax.
Your request can be written as a letter or you can print off a blank copy of the Application Form, which should be filled in, signed and sent by mail or fax.
Inquiries should be sent by mail or fax to:
Personnel Records Unit
Library and Archives Canada
395 Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0N3
Fax: (613) 947-8456




Caroline

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Thursday 03 November 05 23:00 GMT (UK)
Martha,
       I dont think I can add anything to what has already been said. We have all the relevant information with the exeption of individual photo's, now. Unless as has been said, photo's are available then we would be no further. However a friendly chat at the archives may well be helpfull.
       If your visit doesn't turn anything up it looks like we will have to be patient and wait for areply from one of our enquiries.
                                                    Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: MJP on Friday 04 November 05 19:05 GMT (UK)
Hi all,

Whew!  Just finished talking to someone at the Personnel Records Office at Library and Archives Canada.  Here's the scoop...

The WWII files of those who were killed in action have been released for public viewing.   (Those who died after the war are not public).  Good news for us.  This means that I would be able to order up the files for these guys and look at them myself. 

Good news #2 - these files usually contain a head shot of the person, as Prue suggested.

Re photocopies:  A "genealogy package", which includes copies of the key documents, is free of charge, but they are "currently experiencing a backlog" of 4 months.  Furthermore, the photos are not included in this genealogy package, as they will not photocopy photographs.  If you want the photo you have to pay extra for proper photographic reproduction.  One way to get faster service is to order a copy of the entire file (instead of the free genealogy package), but this is not practical as they are usually 200 - 400 pages at 40 cents a page!

Soooo....it sounds like the easiest thing is for me (or some other rootschatter from Ottawa  ;D ) to just go and have a look at the files to check the photos and look for any other pertinent info.   I am happy to do this sometime, but I will be out of town for 2 weeks this month, so I may not get to it right away. 

I'll keep checking here for updates on the other leads that are going on out there...

Thanks,

Martha
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Friday 04 November 05 21:18 GMT (UK)
Martha, great work.  No doubt we are all looking foward to your visit!  Any information gathered is a great bonus...great suggestion Pru.

I've had a reply from an internet site which is " dedicated to all Commonwealth Air Personnel of World War Two".


I would recommend others to take a look as it may assist in their research and it a very nice site. 

the reply was as follows:

I would like to put a short tribute about the crew of the Wellington on my website including the story of your grandfather finding the photograph at the crash site. I have had success in reaching family members of my cousin's crew in this manner. Perhaps by posting the info on the website the family members can find you.

Let me know what you think.

Regards,
Matt Lacroix
www.bombercrew.com

I've emailed back to accept the offer to post the tribute and will keep you posted.


Caroline

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Friday 04 November 05 21:21 GMT (UK)
Hi, all..
  Crikey, I wish I was in ottawa!!!!...Great year of the veteran posting Just found this thread as I poke in here once in a while to read the great entries.
  I am wondering if anyone has contacted newspapers in Canada? If not
I will do it...please notify me!  Tried to clean up the boy's image, but still needs work.

Here's a question...did they often stand in any order according to their flight duties?....would help if that was so....Manmac! I know that you can find this out! 

My vote is that he looks much like the fellow on the right...brow...cheekbones...
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Friday 04 November 05 21:25 GMT (UK)
Hi JJ

I was just reading your site as you had some links just as you posted on mine!  I had contacted a few newspapers last Sunday but haven't heard anything.  Janice posted a few links and TV stations..I emailed them all..but I've not heard anything,

Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Friday 04 November 05 21:48 GMT (UK)
Yes, I posted at the same time as you did...so my links went south....

Not sure if this site was posted....gives the crew's list of duties...
http://www.gpswalker.cwc.net/wellington.htm

O.K....the trouble with newspapers is that they only print what they consider newsworthy....Have recently had quite a time getting the media to post something for me...hard to spark interest, so unless someone is a descendant of a war vet.... and of course they have to have an interest in the whole thing to begin with...so here I go...  I will do my best!   

Cyber hugs for all the work you have all done to honour these servicemen...
J.J.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Friday 04 November 05 21:51 GMT (UK)
GS Walker was the first site I found...where I had the names of the other crew.  I have emailed him but no reply.  :(
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Friday 04 November 05 22:43 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline,

The mayor of Bathurst, N.B. just wrote me back, with regards to the photos.

He has been in touch with the family of J.P. Ernest Burke, who identified his brother in the group photo. He believes the single photo is that of the pilot, W.J. Allison. Unfortunately, he does not have contact details for anyone in the Allison family.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Friday 04 November 05 23:20 GMT (UK)
I am in the position as most of you, just about exhausted all ideas on the internet but still waiting for replies from several scources.
         It may be an idea to get a good quality restoration of both photo's in Canada. if Caroline could rescan them at 300dpi. of course such files would be too big to post on here but could be sent using this site recomended by deadants a while ago
http://photos.yousendit.com/
          After restoration a copy (either digital or hard copy) would need to be sent to Canada.
                                               Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Friday 04 November 05 23:43 GMT (UK)
I've found a record of Allison, cant post it here yet as the picture is too big...will work on it...but here is the link

http://www.education.mcgill.ca/ww2fields/mcgill/wrc/allison-wj.jpg
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Friday 04 November 05 23:46 GMT (UK)
another try
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Friday 04 November 05 23:56 GMT (UK)
Found a picture of Allison!

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Friday 04 November 05 23:57 GMT (UK)
If you click on this site, it has a lot of information, pictures, sadly the other men are not on it...but it may be useful for others looking.
http://www.education.mcgill.ca/ww2fields/mcgill/lists/abrams2.htm
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Saturday 05 November 05 01:27 GMT (UK)
It doesn't look like the same fellow to me  :(
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 05 November 05 09:09 GMT (UK)
You could be right Pru....but as this is a record of Alllison then it is possible to discount him.  This was included on his University site.  Hamel was also a pilot...so maybe we now need to look in that area? Would you say this picture is maybe the first guy on the left? 
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Saturday 05 November 05 10:21 GMT (UK)
The picture of our unknown boy seems to relate to either the fellow on the far right or far left of the crew photo.  I lean towards the guy on the right, but only because the one on the left is not very well defined.  Left man has a better match in terms of shape of face.

Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: gransworld on Saturday 05 November 05 12:06 GMT (UK)
Don't you  think  the  men  in  this   flight  crew  picture  are  much  older  looking  than  the one's  who  died  in  the  crash ?
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Saturday 05 November 05 13:02 GMT (UK)
Caroline,
    That card is from a project on a site run by the McGill education faculty which it seems was the school attended by Flt lt Allison, Interesting though is the fact that the project was created by Christopher Milligan, Wes Cross and Sam Allison, now I wonder if Sam Allison is a relative of our airman.
    One of your posts states that Hamel was also a pilot - I presume that this in view of the fact that Allison prior to his promotion to flt lt was a pilot officer, pilot officer  is a rank and although it can do I don't think it necessarily refers to being a pilot.
                                                   Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 05 November 05 13:17 GMT (UK)
Right Denn, that is the site where I got the card.  Our guy Allison attended the University.  I'm going to email the Dean, maybe he can help in some way in contacting the family or has further information.....It's worth a try.

I've just spoken to my grandfather about where he found the picture, he said he found it in the wreckage, under what he thought might have been the wing.  He said that he had seen the plane as it was about to crash and it was on fire in the sky. 

He said to "thank everyone for their time taken to help so far".

Caroline

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Saturday 05 November 05 14:11 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline,

I have already e-mailed Dr. Christopher Milligan from the University, to see if he has any details about who submitted the photo. I doubt very much that  Sam Allison is related, although anything is possible. It is just that there are 2 people by the name of Allison employed at the school.

Caroline, I think it is a great idea to email the Dean of the School, as he may know of other family members that attended as well.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 05 November 05 14:17 GMT (UK)
we doubled up, I've also emailed chris milligan..oh well..if he sees 2 emails maybe he will want to find out more! 

Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Saturday 05 November 05 14:21 GMT (UK)
Sorry! :-\  I'm afraid I did that while all of you were sleeping, as I am on a different clock.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 05 November 05 14:23 GMT (UK)
It is appreciated that you took the time...if 2 emails are sent them maybe we get a better chance!   ;D..its always worth it rather than missing out.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: kat2004 on Saturday 05 November 05 17:59 GMT (UK)
Just wanted to say I think its wonderful what you guys are doing and I wish you the best of luck!
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Saturday 05 November 05 19:26 GMT (UK)
I have just made contact with someone in the media ( almost impossible on the weekend! ) However, I spoke to a lovely lady from Sun Media (Newspapers) here in Winnipeg, who was most enthusiastic...and also she knew something about the Wellington aircraft! Bonus! This is a newspaper that runs in several Eastern and Western Provinces,  so here's hoping! I have faith in her to run something...as they are running several pre Remembrance Day items next week!   Fingers crossed!

I've also added it to our "emmigration to canada" thread...Hopefully more help is on the way!!!!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,95394.0.html

Many cyber hugs,
J.J.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 05 November 05 19:30 GMT (UK)
JJ has some good news, she made contact with someone from Sunmedia who was interested in the story and hopefully will get back to her.  She has also posted on the Canadian immigration board..so others might pick it up which was was a great idea. 

I've emailed the University that Allison went to and know that someone has at least read my email as I put a "read receipt" on it and had that back...so its hopeful.


oops, I see her details below...apologies

Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Sunday 06 November 05 05:10 GMT (UK)
hello...rootschatters...Here is another point to ponder...my husband thought the jacket on the boy was way too large for him..the way it fits...and he may well be right...we have all marveled at the cap almost off the head. Perhaps he slipped on the uniform for a photo op and may not be military....just another thought to add to the mix!  J.J.

(Besides every new addition puts this back onto the top to view....)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Sunday 06 November 05 05:26 GMT (UK)
I agree that it could be a younger brother, or maybe just a brand new enlistee.

In the crew photo's, they all look to be older, but we know that they were still quite young, given by what is written in  the memorials.

I guess that a year or two in the war would age anybody.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 06 November 05 13:32 GMT (UK)
I've received a reply from Chris Milligan who with Wes Cross (from Mc Gills University) have an internet site Commemorating the 60th Anniversary of the ending of WW2 and honouring the memory of Mc Gill Graduates, Studends and Staff Members lost in the conflict.  Most of the people listed have pictures and War record details so it could be useful for others searching for Mc Gill members.

http://www.education.mcgill.ca/ww2fields/mcgill/

He has taken a look at the photograph of the crew and compared it to the one listed on his site of Joseph Allison and believes that Allison is fourth from the left, hope you all agree with this..it looks right. 

He said that he will take another look in the War Record Folder with his colleague Wes to see if there is any other information.  So with his help we can now identify two of the crew in the photograph.  I hope we can eventually place all.

Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Sunday 06 November 05 14:36 GMT (UK)
Just to clear up the ranks, I did find this site. ( re: pilot officer )
I will post it as it may come in handy for others searching
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Air_Force

Scroll down to see the ranking order, then if you click on the link,
it gives you lots of details and the corresponding stripes.   J.J.

More links in rootschat to databases and canadian military resources
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,98250.0.html
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 06 November 05 20:35 GMT (UK)
I've rescanned the original picture hoping it's a little clearer.  My cousin will email the picture of the crew shortly and we will see if there is some way of improving it too.  I don't know if this is of any significance but there appears to be some shiny glue marks on the back with bits left of a dark navy card.  It appears it was stuck to it and had been ripped off.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Sunday 06 November 05 21:18 GMT (UK)
Thanks Caroline...much better....it will come in handy should the visual media come through!  J.J.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 06 November 05 22:24 GMT (UK)
I've just read some information given given to my grandfather which my cousin had printed out for him to pass to me.  It's about the crash and more information than I have found on the net.  Will speak to my cousin to see here he had it.  It says:

Flight History:
Aircraft MF509 a Wellington MK10 took off from Stratford-Upon-Avon, a satellite airfield to RAF Wellesbourne Mountford home to No22 O.T.U (operational Training Unit) at 19.26 hours on 20/11/44 for a night cross country navigation training exercises.  Shortly before 20.50 hrs the crew sent a radio message seeking permission to descend below cloud base as they were experiencing trouble with the Starboard engine. (Possibly due to icing in the carb).  Their request was granted and whilst descending over he mountains of the Brecon Beacons their aircraft flew into Carreg Goch at approx grid ref: 161/816171.

It lists the crew as follows:
Pilot: SGT CHARLES HAMEL, RCAF
Nav: SGT JULES ROBERT RENE VILLENEUVE, RCAF
B/A: F/O WILLIAM JOSEPH ALLISON, RCAF
W/AG: SGT JOSEPH PAUL ERNEST BURKE, RCAF
W/AG: SGT ARTHUR GROULX, RCAF
A/G: SGT JOSEPH LIONEL UNDERIC DU SABLON, RCAF

Note: Sgt Hamel was posthumously promoted to Pilot Officer and Flying Officer Allison was promoted to Flight Lieutenant.


Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Monday 07 November 05 19:30 GMT (UK)
These photos show how misty it can be in the mountains.
Perhaps the fog was also a factor for the poor lads.


wreckage in the mist:
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/ww/cg/cg.html


(hover over photo to see wellington ) http://us.geocities.com/warrenvadams/621adventure.htm

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 07 November 05 22:18 GMT (UK)
I've received another picture of the crew from my cousin who has come up with something which we haven't thought of before.  He mentions that the man on the right has a large navigators bag in front of him.  As Villeneuve was the navigator and is a possible match to the picture then it is possible that he has solved it.  He also mentions that the man on the left was wearing a white scarf...does this have any significance for him being a pilot or would they all have had one and he just chose to wear it on that day?

Could the type of bags the men are holding or have placed in front of them be significant to their duties?

He has also given a picture of the crew...which should be clearer than the original....thanks Damien.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: eillo on Monday 07 November 05 22:35 GMT (UK)
My two step brothers were also in the service. Henry Villeneuve was in the army, and
Jules Villeneuve was in the Air force; he is buried in England

I have had a look around and in actual fact Jules Villeneuve, one of the crew who died, was  Earl Scofield's HALF-brother, not a step brother. They shared the same mother.

Jules' parents were Jean Baptiste Villeneuve & Clara Chartrand
Earl's parents were Ralph William Scofield & Clara Chartrand

Seems Earl is/was a Metis (http://www.metisnation.org/metisVOYAGEUR/mv05may.pdf p. 11) so most likely Jules was too (through their mother) I'm also a Metis and a member of OMAA (Ontario Metis Aboriginal Association) I can ask them if they will publish this story in the magazine and/or on their website.




Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: deadants on Monday 07 November 05 22:38 GMT (UK)
I just adjusted the brightens and contrast. to make it a bit clearer.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 07 November 05 22:41 GMT (UK)
Thanks Eillo for the update...just goes to show don't believe everything you see in the press!

I contacted the Villeneuve family website a long time ago as they had him listed on their tree and the details that he died in a crash...so I thought it was a good lead....a few emails were sent..but no response unfortunately.  Hoping you get further this time. ;)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Monday 07 November 05 22:46 GMT (UK)
Mystery lad just has to be the one on the right, don't you think?  Having now seen deadants' cleaned-up larger version, I'm certain of it.

Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Monday 07 November 05 23:17 GMT (UK)
I showed the photo to a friend of mine who served in WW2, and he believes that this is an "Enlistment" photo, so that is why he looks so young.

He also pointed out something else. The young man has dark hair, and there are only 3 men in the crew photo with dark hair. One of them, we have already discounted. The other three men have light coloured hair.

Also the two men on either end have quite narrow noses, as well as fair complexions. The young man has in the single photo has a wide nose and medium to dark complexion.

Just something else to think about.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Monday 07 November 05 23:25 GMT (UK)
Am also asking my sister see if my father can identify anything about them, as he was RCAF, also...I'll let you know what he says...
Caroline, are you receiving the personal messages?
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Monday 07 November 05 23:29 GMT (UK)
The scarfe has no significence as all aircrew wore scarves to combat the cold.
                                                       Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: KarenM on Tuesday 08 November 05 04:25 GMT (UK)
Perhaps he was in Air Cadets prior to enlisting and that's when the picture was taken?

http://www.cadets.ca/intro_e.asp

Karen
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Tuesday 08 November 05 05:26 GMT (UK)
        That's something I had never even considered, but it is certainly a possibility.
        I don't know about others but I for one keep scanning backwards and forwards through the posts, and to be quiet honest - the more posts we get the more I get confused.
         I think it's about time to make two lists - list one being what is known as fact, and list two, the possibilities. That way duplicated facts can be seen and we may also be able to easier marry one thing with another.
                                               Denn
         
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: kat2004 on Tuesday 08 November 05 10:06 GMT (UK)
I am not a betting person (too stingy) but I would put  tenner on your man being the one on the right.  I agree with janice, the original photo appears to be an enlistment photo. Wouldnt it be wonderful if you can solve this in time for the weekend with it being Remembrance sunday.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Tuesday 08 November 05 14:11 GMT (UK)
Here's the summary I put together, with the help of Eillo...
For the newspaper...not that they will use it as is, but to help lessen
confusion. As Denn says, I read through at least 6 times and my head
was spinning...



Over 60 years ago six young Canadian airmen lost their lives while on Training Duty over the Midlands of Wales.

 Caroline ‘s story:

“My grandfather, Eric Price was in his early 20's when the crash happened and lived a village called Ynyswen, in the Swansea Valley, South Wales, UK.  On the night of the crash, he, and a few others he was with, heard the plane in the sky .  A little later he saw a glow in the mountains...the plane had crashed into the mountain and caught fire.  At the time nobody knew what had happened or anything about the crew.  The following day there was talk in the village about the crash and it was confirmed that the plane had come down and had caught fire and this was what they had seen.

Three days later he went for a walk to the wreck.  The mountain range can be seen from his front door and there is a sheep path which leads you along the range (his dog went too!).  He walked around the wreck and picked up what he thinks was a piece of the wing.  Underneath he saw a piece of white card.  He turned it over and it was a picture facing down.  He said that if it had been facing up he thinks it wouldn't have been in such good condition.  He didn't know who to give the picture to and didn't want to throw it away.  He put it in his pocket not wanting to leave it at the crash to blow away etc so it went home with him.  With no idea what to do with it or how to return it, the picture has been kept safe at his home for 61 years this month. 

A while ago he mentioned it to a cousin who found out from some internet sites that it was a Canadian plane and crew.  Until my cousin found out this information he had no idea.  I've been looking into my family tree lately and mentioned to him about what information you can find on the internet these days so I posted this picture on an internet site for the Armed Forces and the response has been amazing. 

 

Since the posting on Rootschat.com she has received this information on the crew:

Flight History: Wales
Aircraft MF509 a Wellington MK10 took off from Stratford-Upon-Avon, satellite airfield to RAF Wellesbourne Mountford ( No22 Operational Training Unit) at 19.26 hours on Nov.20th 1944 for a night cross country navigation training exercise.. Shortly before 20.50 hrs the crew sent a radio message asking permission to go below cloud as they were having trouble with the starboard engine, perhaps due to icing in the carburetor. Permission was granted and as they descended over the mountains of the Brecon Beacons their aircraft flew into the South West slope of Carreg Goch. There is a small memorial at the crash site to honour the crew who died there.


Information extracted from The Canadian Virtual War Memorial:
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm/collections/virtualmem

Nationality: Canadian RCAF   Service numbers ommitted   
All are buried at Blacon – Chester  Cemetery


JOSEPH PAUL ERNEST  BURKE
Rank:   Sergeant (W.Op./Air Gnr.)
Age:   20
Service No:   R/206904
Son of William & Dorine Burke, of West Bathurst, Gloucester Co., New Brunswick. 

JOSEPH ARTHUR EDMOND GROULX
Rank:   Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Age:   22
Service No:   R/111476
Son of Arthur & Alexandrine Groulx, of Hull, Quebec
 
JOSEPH LIONEL UNDERIC DU SABLON 
Rank:   Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Age:   20
Service No:   R/174038
Son of Lionel Olivier & Mary Lea Du Sablon, of De Gaspe, Montreal, Quebec

WILLIAM JOSEPH ALLISON
Rank:   Flight Lieutenant (Air Bomber)
Age:   28
Service No:   J/20861
Son of William Earle Allison & Mary Ruth Allison, Montreal, Quebec

JULES ROBERT RENE VILLENEUVE,
Rank:   Sergeant (Nav.)
Age:   22
Service No:   R/199834
Son of Jean B. Villeneuve & Clara Villeneuve, of Verdun, Quebec
his half brother was Senator Earl Scofield. *

CHARLES HAMEL
Rank:   Pilot Officer (Pilot)
Age:   21
Service No:   J/92169
Son of Dr. Paul Hamel & Bertha Ellen Hamel, of Montreal, Quebec

 
 

**Also some information and a photo have been found for W.J. Allison, and some genealogy on J. R. R. Villeneuve***

 

Caroline goes on to say:

“If there are any family members out there who would like the picture returned I will be more than happy to do so and end a 60 year old mystery to find the identity of the man in the picture.”


 

* See page 11 of http://www.metisnation.org/metisVOYAGEUR/mv05may.pdf

**  http://www.education.mcgill.ca/ww2fields/mcgill/lists/abrams2.htm

 **  http://www.education.mcgill.ca/ww2fields/mcgill/wrc/allison-wj.jpg

*** http://www.geocities.com/MathurinVilleneuve/

 


Other web sites found:

wreckage in the mist:
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/ww/cg/cg.html
http://www.clwb-cerdded-ystalyfera.i12.com/pages/mf509.htm
http://www.gpswalker.cwc.net/wellington.htm
(hover over photo to see wellington ) http://us.geocities.com/warrenvadams/621adventure.htm

 



~~~~~~~~
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Wednesday 09 November 05 02:25 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline

I have heard from the family of J.P. Ernest Burke, and they are so excited about seeing the photo of the crew.

The lady who wrote to me is Ernest's neice. In her letter, she states that she would like to thank you directly.

Ernest's sister is still alive, and her daughter Suzanne is going to show her the photo.

The city of Bathurst had also put an article in the paper with a picture of Ernest's brother Eric receiving the letter and photographs. They have forwarded this to me which I am posting for all to see.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: liverpool annie on Wednesday 09 November 05 03:51 GMT (UK)


How cool is that??

Wonderful - wonderful work you guys!!

I'm so glad there has been some results ....  :)

Congratulations!!

Annie
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Wednesday 09 November 05 04:03 GMT (UK)
How wonderful!!! What a great result!! 

I'm sure we must be close now to getting the same result for our unknown fellow.

Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Wednesday 09 November 05 04:25 GMT (UK)
I am in contact with Ernest's niece, and hopefully I will be able to post a close-up photo of him.

Here's hoping we can find all of the families! I believe it's possible if we all keep putting our heads together.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Wednesday 09 November 05 05:05 GMT (UK)
Just wanted to let everyone know, so that there is no misunderstanding, the individual photo of the soldier is still a mystery. The newspaper in Bathurst, N.B. made it sound as though it was Ernest, but it was not. His brother identified him in the group shot.

If I get permission from Ernest's niece, I will post the individual photo of him.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: xbutcherboy on Wednesday 09 November 05 14:44 GMT (UK)
Re Karen's suggestion about your mystery airman in the 40S in the air cadet corp we were issued tunics with the dog collars not the type shown .
Had to add my thoughts to a great thread .

Bob
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Wednesday 09 November 05 15:24 GMT (UK)
Well done Janice! most rewarding to have found some family...also, I had
thought perhaps the crew called him Ernest because there was another
Joseph, but I see he'd used that name previously...
The other thread has been updated with the news!

Welcome Bob!!!! ( I like your real name best....eeek)
When were you in the forces? My father served RCAF, was in
Wellesbourne Mountford No. 22 OTU in June 1944 -
( see remember site link below  )  I surely respect what those fellows
( and ladies) did for us...and that this could well have been my dad....

all the best, & cyber hugs to you all, J.J. ( Better get back to work!)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 09 November 05 18:30 GMT (UK)
I've had some updates on Allison, newspaper cuttings and info from the family of Ernest which I will summarise a little later and double check if I can post some of the pictures supplied.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Wednesday 09 November 05 19:09 GMT (UK)
Good thinking Caroline...I never noticed that...and if it is a photograph of the crew, although it only looks like 3 of them, we would surely appreciate using it here. I know Janice will get on that right away. She's really pumped!  J.J.

Just to update the lineup..Where are we now? Left to right re: photo
  Alllison - unknown - Burke - 3 unknown, correct?
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 09 November 05 19:24 GMT (UK)
Apologies, I do have the picture of the other crew, Ernest's niece was kind enough to send it.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: gransworld on Wednesday 09 November 05 21:14 GMT (UK)
I  found  some  more  information may help  find  others it  gives  the  parents  names.
GROULX, JOSEPH ARTHUR EDMOND
Initials: J A E
Nationality: Canadian
Rank: Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Regiment: Royal Canadian Air Force
Age: 22
Date of Death: 20/11/1944
Service No: R/111476
Additional information: Son of Arthur and Alexandrine Groulx, of Hull, Province of Quebec, Canada.

ALLISON, WILLIAM JOSEPH
Initials: W J
Nationality: Canadian
Rank: Flight Lieutenant (Air Bomber)
Regiment: Royal Canadian Air Force
Age: 28
Date of Death: 20/11/1944
Service No: J/20861
Additional information: Son of William Earle Allison and Mary Ruth Allison, of Montreal, Province of Quebec. Canada.

VILLENEUVE, JULES ROBERT RENE
Initials: J R R
Nationality: Canadian
Rank: Sergeant (Nav.)
Regiment: Royal Canadian Air Force
Age: 22
Date of Death: 20/11/1944
Service No: R/199834
Additional information: Son of Jean B. Villeneuve and Clara Villeneuve, of Verdun, Province of Quebec. Canada.

HAMEL, CHARLES
Initials: C
Nationality: Canadian
Rank: Pilot Officer (Pilot)
Regiment: Royal Canadian Air Force
Age: 21
Date of Death: 20/11/1944
Service No: J/92169
Additional information: Son of Dr. Paul Hamel, and of Bertha Ellen Hamel, of Montreal, Province of Quebec, Canada.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Damien on Wednesday 09 November 05 23:16 GMT (UK)
The man standing to the left in the new photo looks like the same person standing to the left of Ernest in the first crew photo,and the man on the right looks like the one who is second from right in the first crew photo.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 09 November 05 23:22 GMT (UK)
Damien has a point about the pictures.  I've emailed Ernests relative to see if she has any idea on the names of the other 2 men in her picture....I couldn't take another mystery! but he has a point about them looking similar...

Janice, can you get any info from your friend the Mayor? after all, the picture is also shown with Eric Burke in the newspaper article.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Thursday 10 November 05 04:47 GMT (UK)
I have received permission to post the photo of J.P. Ernest Burke. I also wanted to let you know what his niece had to say about him.

"I've read the infomation on the rootchat.  I can't believe all the trouble you have gone through to help us get back with Uncle Ernest.  I am includeing a few pictures which I have of him to help you get to know him better.  I remember my mother telling us that he was a gunner and wireless operator.  He was born April 24, 1924 which made him 22 when he died.  Such a young man.  I have never met him but through my mother got to know him.  He was a very good boy and had a heart of gold.  My mother loved her little brother.

My uncle Ernest graduated from Sacred Heart University with a secretarial degree.  He was a trumpet player and was part of the orchestra. (All my family is very musical) In 1942, he was time-keeper for "Foundation Company" in Arvida, near Jonquière, in Quebec. This was a company responsible for the construction of the Electric Central of Shipshaw. In 1943, he enroled as a volunteer in the Canadian Air Force.  His training brought him to St Hubert, then Paulson, Brandon then Winnipeg in Manitoba.  He was promoted to sargent on January 28 1944, after successfully completing couses in navigation and wireless operating in Brandon.  He left from Halifax for England  on October 10. All his family was waiting to meet his train as it went through Bathurst, but unfotunately, the train took another route and did not pass through Bathust.  Everybody was quite disapointed, as they were notr able to see him. Then he died a month later.  My grandfather was only 56 at the time of my uncle's death."

It is so nice to actually get to know something about these young men.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Thursday 10 November 05 04:54 GMT (UK)
Not sure what the f. means...aren't the other 2 named here...? so he must have
trained right here in Manitoba, first, just like my Dad did!!!! 2 years of vigorous
training. These fellows all went through a heck of a lot even in training.

Sgt. Joseph Paul Ernest Burke, to the centre ,( f.) of
William and of Hermine Hachey, at Winnipeg, in 1944
If it said Burke I would think the f. was for "son"

re: below
of course, silly me...how nice that the maiden name is used...I am so used to
some of these old files where the poor ladies had first names only!


Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: g a r on Thursday 10 November 05 05:14 GMT (UK)
I think the f. is for son and Hermine Hachey is mom's maiden name.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Thursday 10 November 05 15:03 GMT (UK)
(http://members.shaw.ca/TPBLUNT/images/remember_year_of_the_vet.gif)

  I posted at the same time last night, again , but was too tired
to look at yours, Janice...What a lovely letter from Ernest's niece.  I have just
been watching "Bomber Boys" this week...a documentary type shoot of 6
grandsons of wartime airmen. They have 3 weeks of air training at an
actual training station, and it is giving them (& us) a small idea of the grueling
pace and intense workout that they had.
 The series says it took longer to train as a wireless operator than it did a pilot.
My father also trained at Paulson and Brandon. What a wonderful bunch of
fellows they all were, to have volunteered for this duty.   


( Dad said that he couldn't see any stripes or anything to make out rank...
He did say that the pilot had his rank closer to the cuff, I believe where as the
others were on sleeves ...but our forces buffs would have caught that anyway.)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Thursday 10 November 05 21:36 GMT (UK)
Commissioned officers have thier rank on the cuff and eppaulettes, non commissioned officers on the upper arm, however I don't believe rank was nessesarily worn on flying suits, the first picture of our young airman is in dress suit and shows no rank at al which is why I believe it was took at recruit training.
                                   Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Thursday 10 November 05 22:14 GMT (UK)
I’ve received information from the people at Mc Gill University who are researching their past pupil William Allison.  I’ve emailed them the information we have all found out and posted on this site and as you will read, they are also now helping to find out more. 

Parts of emails received have been posted below

He was a McGill student in 1936 & 1937  and was 28 at the time of death. He was a flight lt, which would likely make him a pilot or co-pilot, although pilots were certainly of the “Sgt” or F/O (Flying Officer rank) in the RCAF during that time. His age would indicate that he was likely an instructor

We’re going to use part of it and some of your other messages, along with the various photos, and create a new webpage for William Allison as part of our project.  We have mobilized the resources of the university to see if we can locate the family of Mr. Allison. As of today both our alumni association and registrar’s office are working to find clues as to where any members of his family might be.so that you can contact them.  The problem that we have, in terms of information, is that Mr. Allison graduated in 1937 and beyond any basic records (such as type of degree he obtained) we are likely to have nothing else. However we might be able to find a sibling who attended McGill who might have a link to our alumni group who try to track the approximately 150,000 living graduates of McGill.

Everyone here at the university who has come in contact with the tale becomes quite interested in resolving the mystery.

Chris Milligan and I are also doing a presentation for the university’s historical association, and we have decided to insert your grandfather’s story as a highlight (and an example of why our project is of interest to other people in world).

I will keep you posted of any updates, a newspaper report was also included with the email which I’ve also posted.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Thursday 10 November 05 22:19 GMT (UK)
Denn, I think you are right.....I forgot to add that the email from Mc Gills also mentioned that each time there was a promotion, a new photo was taken and maybe the glue and navy card on the back of the photograph was because they had wanted to keep an older photograph and therefore ripped it from old documents.  An example of the card and photo was given but I can't copy it here.

It could also give a reason why the unknown man looked much younger than the members of the crew...as mentioned by Denn, it could have been taken at recruit training.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Damien on Thursday 10 November 05 23:30 GMT (UK)
Hi,
Anyone noticed that Ernest is not wearing flight boots in the crew photo but the two men either side are.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Friday 11 November 05 00:37 GMT (UK)
I had noticed, however apart from that he is wearing complete flying rig - could his trousers possibly be over the boots.
                             Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Friday 11 November 05 01:00 GMT (UK)
What a great project at McGill...with all the new recruits on board, we will
surely do well.

I think, Denn, that you're right...( We do get off topic, sorry Caroline...it happens on all threads ) The boots seem to be on the inside... Notice the break in the crease?
I also notice that they are standing in good old Winnipeg muck...We are in the Red River Valley, here,  where the old Lake Agassi was waaaaayyyyyy back when. When it rains...it pours and we have major  floods every half century or so. 


Mossbank is another familiar name from Dad's training...they did run them about the countryside here, from station to station...and it wasn't quite as easy as nowadays, although they had the trains...bet they wished they could have flown those old trainers across the country instead!
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Damien on Friday 11 November 05 21:49 GMT (UK)
Hi,
On the first crew photo the man on the far right has a badge on his upper left arm anyone have any idea what this badge is
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 12 November 05 10:48 GMT (UK)
Matt who has a web site called Bombercrew.com has placed an article his website about the airmen.  It's possible that someone might not be a Rootschat member but may visit his site.  It all helps to get information to more people. 

There is other interesting information on his site which is listed below:

http://www.bombercrew.com/main.htm
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: Janice M on Saturday 12 November 05 16:19 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline

That is a terrific dedication to this young crew.  What a great idea!

I don't know if you have had any luck in trying the Canadian Legion Magazine, but here is their website anyway.

www.legionmagazine.com
e-mail is:  magazine[AT]legion.ca

All of the legion members I have spoken to, recommended that you send the information to the magazine. It has quite a large distribution, and the people reading are definately interested in this type of story.

Janice

Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses. Please replace [AT] with @
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Saturday 12 November 05 19:21 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline

I just received another letter from a member of the Burke family. What you and your grandfather have done has made this family so very happy. I am a little overwhelmed by their kind words, but have been sure to remind them, that my part in this was so small, and that all the praise should go to your family, the Mayor's office, and everyone involved in helping you solve this mystery.

I have invited the Burke family to look in on this site, so that they can see just how much work everyone is putting into this. Everyone has made such a great contribution with their letters to different organizations as well as their knowledge of the military and their ideas on how to solve this.

I am also proud, as a Canadian, that McGill University has also taken an interest. I do errands for an elderly lady that once attended and worked at McGill, and when I told her of this story, you could see the pride she had for them.

Please let your grandfather know, that because of the thoughtfulness of his actions, and all of your hard work and dedication, this Remembrance Day became even more special for everyone involved with trying to solve this mystery. Your grandfather must be a very special man, for not everyone would have cherished a photograph of someone they didn't know, for the last 61 years.


Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: mc8 on Saturday 12 November 05 21:56 GMT (UK)
Hi Janice
I think that says it all.  I've been truly impressed by the determination of the people in this thread to not just return mementos to people but to pay tribute to those who gave their lives
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: MJP on Monday 14 November 05 15:21 GMT (UK)
Hi all,

What great progress!  I love the newspaper article about the Burkes.  Kudos to that Mayor for taking such a personal interest.  Even though we haven't identified "mystery guy", at least you were able to pass on all that other info. 

I just wanted to let you all know that I have just ordered the men's service files from the Canadian Archives.  I'm going to try and view them this week, but if they can't have them ready for me by Thursday it will have to wait until I'm back in town the week of Dec. 5th.  (Heading off on a 2-week business trip...)

Keep your fingers crossed for expedient service!

Martha
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Monday 14 November 05 16:07 GMT (UK)
Yes, Martha...fingers crossed!!!  We are all looking forward to hearing what is on file.  So good of you to do this for Caroline... on behalf of all of us, really...
So KUDOS to YOU!!!  J.J.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 14 November 05 17:46 GMT (UK)
Hi

Just a few updates.

Janice... I had emailed the Legion early on as it was one of the sites you had recommended, and had a one line reply saying they "couldn't help" but would pass my email to their newsletter people.  I've not heard anything.

I've taken another look at the Villeneuve family web site and have again emailed (last attempt, this is my third try!). 

I had an email from a professor at McGills University saying that this evening they are doing a lecture for their website project and will be using this story as part of their presentation.

Thanks Martha for taking time to go to the library.  Fingers crossed!! 

Thanks all....Caroline

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 14 November 05 17:49 GMT (UK)
duplicated posting in error!
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Tuesday 15 November 05 23:10 GMT (UK)
Have just recieved the following,



On 11/16/05, World War 2 Ex RAF.co.uk <webmaster@worldwar2exraf.co.uk > wrote:
Dear Denis

we are about to add your details to the site for you. Before we do however would you please check and confirm that the details below are correct. Once confirmation is received we will then add the following to the Aircrew notice Board for you along with the relevant name and Squadron search page details .

Denis Ford and other contributors to "rootschat" are trying to find the identity of the attached photo which was found near the wreckage of a Wellington X serial MF509 from 22 OTU which crashed in Wales on 20/11/1944 whilst on a training exercise.
The crew were from the Canadian Air Force and all were reported killed on active service. The names of the crew were as follows
Sergeant Charles Hamel
Sergeant  Jules Robert Rene Villeneuve
Flying Officer William Joseph Allison
Flying Officer Joseph Paul Ernest Burke
Sergeant Arthur Grouix

Sergeant Gerald Dusablon

 
   Much more informationis available at the following adress
   http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,101535.0.html



If you can help identify the person in the photo then Dennis would like to hear from you and can be contacted at the email address below




                                                    Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Wednesday 16 November 05 01:19 GMT (UK)
Excellent news Denn, and everyone! 
 :)
Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Damien on Saturday 19 November 05 00:17 GMT (UK)
Hi,
Ive been thinking and thought it would be a great idea to lay a poppy wreath at the crash site next year on behalf of the family members that have been contacted,I'd be more than happy to do this.Could anyone find out if they would like me to do this?
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 19 November 05 14:47 GMT (UK)
I've received a few emails from Bill Green who has kindly given me permission to post them.  He has some useful information regarding the uniform etc.

Quote
Hi Caroline,
                 Have been looking at the splendid efforts everyone is making in response to your request. A couple of points have occurred to me however.
 1 The young man in the photograph is not wearing any flying badges on his left breast, therefore it is unlikely in the extreme that he was part of the crew.
 2 There is no room between the eagle insignia on his shoulder and the seam of the arm for the word "Canada", suggesting that he was RAF rather than RCAF.
 3 No rank badges are visible on either arms or shoulders, again suggesting that he was not aircrew, since anyone who was aircrew would hold the rank of sergeant or above at this stage of the war.
 The possibilities therefore are that this young man was either a member of ground crew being given a "joy-ride" or he might well have been a member of the recovery crew sent to deal with the crash.
I know this may further complicate your seartch, but I believe them to be points worth considering.
Best wishes in your efforts to establish his identity, and thank you for caring enough.
                                       Sincerely,
                                                             Bill Green,
                                                                              Hon. Chair,
                                                                              Fenland Branch,
                                                                              Bomber command Association

Whilst it has always been a possibility that the photograph may have been dropped by someone investigating the crash scene or it could have been of a family member of one of the crew, we hadn't thought of the possibility of another member.  I read an article in the newpaper a week or so ago saying that the pilots liked to take the maintenance crews for a ride from time to time (the pilots did this at times to make sure the maintenance guys serviced the planes correctly!).  As there is no mention of another person on the memorial, I would presume that there was not another person on the plane, but I could be wrong. 

Bill Green sent another email with the following about the badge


Quote
note your comments in your Email. The fact that only the recognised crew members were named as casualties of the crash seems to confirm that our friend was not a crew member, but does not rule it out entirelyI'm afraid. The photograph could have been taken soon after his enlistment in the Air Force, before flying training had begun. The crew photographs on the forum appear to be of older chaps than the one you are investigating.
I have, however, studied our friend's picture more closely and am now pretty well convinced that he was RAF rather than RCAF. If you study the large button on his tunic, the RAF eagle is fairly easy to pick out in the centre, but there is no sign at all of the letters R.C.A.F. which I would have expected to see above the eagle. 

If he was RAF, where do we start??

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Saturday 19 November 05 21:31 GMT (UK)
Hi Caroline and everyone,
Caroline - in light of these new confusions (!!!  ;D ) might it be worth scanning our man at a high resolution, to bring out the detail of the buttons and badges?  To post as big a pic as possible, you could just focus on those little bits, instead of doign the whole thing.
What do you think?
Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Saturday 19 November 05 21:47 GMT (UK)
Rescanned as high as possible
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Sunday 20 November 05 01:24 GMT (UK)
I also found a site with buttons from the Canadian air training bases...so had he been wearing a jacket from a training base, the buttons would be different yet
again...

I still can't make out shapes even with the new scan...but some of you seem to have eyes like hawks...  click on the buttons to enlarge...

British Air Commonwealth Air Training Plan...
http://www.geocities.com/leaside1.geo/
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Sunday 20 November 05 03:10 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the scan Caroline  :) 
I hate to bug, but is there a way of getting a higher DPI/resolution scan?  This is still very tiny as evidenced by the small file size of about 12K.  There should be somewhere in your scanner settings to set the resolution to perhaps 300 or even 600DPI. 
Sorry if I sound like I'm teaching grandma how to suck eggs!  ;D  Just that I still can't get a handle on what's on his buttons...
Cheers
Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 20 November 05 11:39 GMT (UK)
The original scan at 1200dpi was too large for it to be downloaded so it had to be resized.  I've since split up the photographs so they can both load at 1200.  The crown and bird can easily be identified along with the insignia.  Looks like RAF for sure, well spotted Bill.


Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 20 November 05 13:22 GMT (UK)
The Winnipeg Sun has run the story.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/World/2005/11/20/1314891-sun.html


Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Sunday 20 November 05 17:39 GMT (UK)
Well there is no doubt that this is an eagle under a crown..well spotted, Mr. Green...
 I am glad the story was written up in the newspapers...did it get into the
Quebec papers owned by the sun, tho...I hope so!  Glad to see that Rootschat
got a bit of a plug!   
 Damien, that is such a wonderful gesture to want to place a wreath on behalf
of the families of the crew...Hopefully we find some (or ALL) of them so that you
can get an answer.  J.J.

    Sixty one years ago today...
 



Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Sunday 20 November 05 19:21 GMT (UK)
  The nearest I could find so far is the raf mess kit button as it is slightly offset to the right...If this is an R.A.F. fellow we are searching for...let's not lose hope but simply call it a much larger mystery.
 I am enjoying the fact that we are finding the families...and that we are honouring these boys. This still could be a cousin, etc. One never knows. Mom was R.C.A.F. but had a cousin in the forces in England and also New Zealand.

And so we are off to solve a larger mystery...

Caroline...should we start another thread in this board with the buttons and arm wings enlarged, so that the military buffs can try to sort it out on it's own...but linking back to this thread?  Will perhaps get more on the case, if nothing else...
Just a thought...J.J.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 20 November 05 21:51 GMT (UK)
Bob Schwarts has kindly given me permission to post some photographs from his website, he also has some information regarding the shoulder insigina.

Quote
They were worn by all ranks underneath Warrant Officers, i.e from Aircraftman Second Class (AC2), through AC1, LAC, Corporal, Sergeant, and finally Flight-Sergeant. 

The eagles are meant to be worn in pairs, with the both of the eagles facing backward. The unofficial translation of the RAF motto, "We have eyes everywhere", refers to the fact the wearer's own eyes are facing forward in combination with the eyes of the eagles that are facing rearwards


There is also a picture of the Canadian badge. 

The eagle-eyed amongst you (no pun intended!) will hopefully know much more.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Sunday 20 November 05 22:44 GMT (UK)
This seems to get more confusing rather than closer to an answer.
       I still believe that the photo was took during recruit training, hence the lack of badges. If he had have been junior groundcrew His ac1/ac2 badge would still have been upper arm.
       I think you are sorrect regarding not having the Canada flash above the eagle - if it is an eagle. The R.A.F. insignia is not as many people think -it is actually an albatross, now I do know that the R.A.A.F. changed the Albatross to a wedgetailed eagle (Ozzy bird), but I cant say about the R.C.A.F.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Sunday 20 November 05 23:13 GMT (UK)
Brilliant Caroline, thanks for the big scan  :)

I think the birdie on his shoulder is facing backwards.  Does that mean RAF?  The button looks to be bird with a crown above.

Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Sunday 20 November 05 23:27 GMT (UK)
Prue

The shoulder badge means he was RAF, the words "Canada" do not appear above it so it appears he may not of been amongst the crew.  The badge would be on each shoulder...both would face backwards hence the 2 different facing patches.



Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Monday 21 November 05 00:01 GMT (UK)
Dennford is correct, the bird is indeed an albatross but most people think of it as being an eagle
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Monday 21 November 05 21:15 GMT (UK)
I stand corrected! The bird on the RAF badge is indeed an eagle. The designer of the original badge drew it as an albatross, but the badge is registered as an eagle at the Royal College of Arms. Nothing to do with our research I know, but it's nice to get things right.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Tuesday 22 November 05 23:15 GMT (UK)
I have to admit to some confusion folks!
The Winipeg Sun has Allison down as the bomb aimer in the crew,as do  other posts on this thread, but the Commonwealth War Graves Commission lists him as navigator. Could make crew identification even harder than it already is don't you think?
On Caroline's update thread, the picture of the crew in flying clothing throws up one or two useful points. The man on the extreme right has a badge on his upper left arm. In the other photos this was not very distinct and I took it to be a wireless operator's badge but, move back from your screen a couple of feet and look at it again. Is it my imagination, or could that badge have the word CANADA on it?
The man next to him, I believe, is one of the air-gunners, quite possibly the rear gunner. He would be the one member of the crew most likely to be wearing a full Irving flying suit as this chap is. The fellow second from left seems to be similarly attired, although it is not quite so distinct. If that is the case, then we have found Groulx and Du Sablon.
Now look at the photograph that Caroline found of Allison in formal uniform. Compare it with with the facial features of the man third from right in  the crew photo.
Could they not be one and the same person? If so, then the navigator's bag on the ground almost in front of him might well bear out the CWGC listing of Allison as the navigator.
This all contributes nothing to identifying the young man in the original photograph found at the crash site, except that it does confirm that crew members probably wore "CANADA" flashes on their uniform jackets.
Over to you my friends.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Wednesday 23 November 05 00:42 GMT (UK)
Hi, Bill...Welcome...You'll enjoy this site!
 When I gave the information to the papers, I took the meat of the information
down for them..( they used very little of it anyway ) and as far as I could see
VILLENEUVE was always down as Navigator...sorry if this isn't the case.
We can't hold the commonwealth war graves information as entirely perfect,
either, as some of ancestor's information I found on there was recently proven
 to be inaccurate...However...any thread this large is bound to get confusing...
Hopefully we can sort it all out in the end!
As far as looking at the screen from a distance...I am flabberghasted that you
and others can see anything at all on those little images. 
All the best, J.J.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Man of Kent on Wednesday 23 November 05 01:19 GMT (UK)
http://www.airforce.ca/
try this site
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Man of Kent on Wednesday 23 November 05 01:24 GMT (UK)
I really made a big muck up with this one, and realise that it had been running for a while.
Is it possible that the guy in the photo was from the nearest airforce base, in the recovery team?
If so then there should be a vets site about.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Wednesday 23 November 05 14:42 GMT (UK)
Hi J.J.
Thanks for the welcome :D
If Allison was the bomb-aimer, then that would seem to suggest that the chap on the right of the line is the navigator,i.e. Villneuve.( I remain convinced that Allison is third from right, on Burke's left.) No self respecting nav. would let his bag of tricks stray far, and that is definitely a nav's bag on the ground in front of the three on the right. Given that the man second from the left is the other gunner, that puts Hamel, the pilot, as the man extreme left.
Pure conjecture of course, but with what evidence there is to hand, I feel fairly confident that I'm somewhere near the mark.
I have, of course, just set myself up to be knocked down but, there you go! ;D
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 23 November 05 15:56 GMT (UK)
Bill, you're not the only one to come to this conclusion with the lineup.  In fact I had an email from Damien about 10 days ago with exactly the same lineup! 

I do think that Allison is fourth from the left, there is a smillarity to his University photo.  Also a newspaper cutting supplied by the University states that Allison was an "instructor in air bombing and aircraft recognition"  He was the oldest at 28 and maybe was training at the time of the crash.

I did have some information kindly posted by Harry who supplied the following:

Quote
A note about the aircraft used by the training and conversion units.Quite often these aircraft would have seen front line service but because of their age and operational background they would be aircraft that had been overhauled or repaired from previous operational incidents.Their engines may have been repaired and overhauled a number of times.Consequently their performance may have been less than those aircraft in squadron service.However in this particular case the Wellington had been withdrawn from Bomber Command front line service for about a year and had been relegated to training although the RAF were still receiving them as per aircraft company individual contract.It is only by researching an individual aircraft by its RAF unique serial number would the history of an aircraft be revealed.

In this particular case,No 22 OTU lost three aircraft all with engine problems.Being a two engined aircraft,losing one on the Wellington imposed an extra burden on the pilot even if he was experienced.Being an OTU pilot,control of the aircraft would have represented a high work load for him and his navigator especially flying at night over mountainous country.

Overall,a tragic loss of nine RCAF airmen in training accidents which were prominent throughout the flying training courses in the Second World War.


Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: janan on Wednesday 23 November 05 16:39 GMT (UK)
Since the young man looks to have been in the RAF and therefore not a crew member is it possible the photo was deliberately placed at the scene - some kind of tribute to one of the crew members? An admirer or partner at this time would have dared do no more than leave an anonymous photo perhaps ???
Just a thought to confuse things further ??? :D
Fantastic thread
Jan ;)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Wednesday 23 November 05 22:00 GMT (UK)
Caroline,
Thanks for your posting, I'm glad that I'm not the only one to make such assertions!
I agree with everything Harry says, the OTU's did have to cope with some very tired old aeroplanes and I'm sure that contributed in no small part to the loss of so many trainee aircrew.
Looking at the loss reports for this particular night, 22 OTU lost three aircraft , as Harry says. What struck me as I read the reports was the fact that all three reported problems with the starboard engine. That is some spooky coincidence.
Now I'm going to really stick my neck out!
Studying the photo of our young man for the umpteenth time and comparing facial features with the crew photo, I believe there is quite a resemblance to the man second from right, i.e. the one I nominate as the rear gunner. If it is not a younger version of him, then it could well be a younger brother, in which case he may not have been aircrew, hence no flying badges and if the photo was taken in Canada, he would not necessarily have worn CANADA flashes.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 23 November 05 22:55 GMT (UK)
Some further information received from McGills University.

Quote
We are also closer to identifying a member of the Allison family here in Montreal. It turns out that William attended McGill University for only one year (1936/37) without graduating. However two of his younger sisters attended the university graduating in 1942 (Beatrice) and 1944 (Joan). Both have passed away  but we have now been able to find names of some later generations of William’s siblings (apparently he had six sisters and no brothers). We suspect there might be one sister, Phyllis, still alive.

We are using some volunteers at the university to help us locate a living relative, and will let you know when we have success.

While I’m not an expert on these things, it should be remembered that in the early years of the war, the RCAF didn’t have a large presence in Britain, and many crewmembers served with the RAF until sufficient numbers of aircraft could arrive ffrom the RCAF. There were also shortages of material and uniforms here in Canada, so it could be we were using RAF surplus uniforms for the cadets. A third point is that Canada ran the Commonwealth Air Training plan where we trained pilots in Canada (less risk of being shot down and more petrol available) prior to being sent to Europe. I have seen pictures of Polish, Australian and French crew being trained in Western Canada, some in RAF uniforms.

Another possibility about the origin of the photo found at the crash site is that it might not be of any of the crew, but could have been a photo of a younger brother that one of the crew carried with them. If they were only on a night training mission, they wouldn’t be carrying all of their wordly goods on the plane, so it could be that the photo was of someone else (like a brother) that one of the airmen had inside a wallet.

Denn has said all along that maybe the photograph was taken at recruit stage...Denn would this also be a reason why "Canada" doesn't appear on his shoulder?

Hopefully when Martha makes her visit to see the records we may have some good news.


Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Wednesday 23 November 05 23:06 GMT (UK)
Only one flaw I can see in McGill's message; If our young man was part of the Commonwealth Training Plan, he would have a white flash at the front of his cap denoting "aircrew under training".
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 23 November 05 23:11 GMT (UK)
Bill, I understand that there may have been a different photograph taken when promotions were given etc.

Can you please take a look at the photo posted of William Allison and maybe see anything from the badges on his uniform and hat which may give an idea of what stage they were taken.  His record card is also posted.  There are lots of postings, let me know if you want it emailed.

Thanks
Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Thursday 24 November 05 10:41 GMT (UK)
Caroline,
Nothing in the photograph gives any indication about when the picture was taken, however, I suspect it was when he was newly commissioned. My reason for that statement is that his hat looks quite new and pristine.
Bomber types were quite proud of their SD caps and would endeavour to hang on to them even when issued with new uniforms. A bomber man's "operational" cap was a treasured possession and was quite often regarded as a talisman.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: gtx958 on Friday 25 November 05 12:49 GMT (UK)
Caroline, I can confirm that the chap in your picture is wearing an RAF uniform of an airman. Not a commisioned officer, thats confirmed by the "eagle" flash on his shoulder. Mind you that does not mean that he did not become an officer in time. Many aircrew started out as non commisioned officers (ie; Sergeant and above) and judging by the youthfull appearance and lack of any rank I guess this was taken in the first few weeks of joing the RAF when his rank would have been Aircraftsman I or II.
I cannot see the "sparks" mentioned by a previous correspondents though if he had them they should be visible on his left arm I think, not both arms. In those days, the sparks were worn above any badge of rank. Nowadays and in my time they are worn below the badge of rank.
Regards
Mike Greatorex
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: gtx958 on Friday 25 November 05 12:53 GMT (UK)
Caroline, I posted a really long reply to this posting of yours but gremlins seem to have lost it. I can confirm that it is a RAF uniform your chap is wearing. That is shown by the "eagle" on his shoulder. Judging by the youthfullness of him I guess this is a picture taken within days or weeks of joing the RAF. No badges of rank showing and I cannot see any "sparks" as mentioned by another reader. With no rank showing then he was an aircraftsman I or II, still in training.
Regards
Mike Greatorex
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Friday 25 November 05 15:05 GMT (UK)
Caroline,
  If our young man is RAF, as seems likely, might it not be worth involving the UK media in the search? It just might be that someone will recognise him on this side of "the pond".
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 28 November 05 23:06 GMT (UK)
Bill,  will try a few other avenue's first (but am running out of them fast!).  Going to try the RAF sites etc and see what happens.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 30 November 05 21:53 GMT (UK)
Have been checking a few sites regarding uniforms etc.  I've found a number of RCAF members who were stationed in the UK and there is no sign of "Canada" on their uniforms above the shoulder badge.

The main source for information is McGill's where they have a site for past students and a number of young men in uniforms who were in the RCAF have the same badge as our guy. 

I don't think it's appropriate to name the men here but the site has information. 

Now I'm even more confused!

Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Damien on Tuesday 06 December 05 19:50 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Does anyone know who the two men are standing either side of  Ernest Burke in the photo of the three crew members?because I'm pretty convinced the one on his left is the same man on his left in the larger crew photo.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Tuesday 06 December 05 22:16 GMT (UK)
I've had confirmation that the photograph is not William Allison and doesn't  appear to be a family member. 

William Allison has been identified by his nephew as third from the right

Thanks to everyone at McGills for your help.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Wednesday 07 December 05 13:01 GMT (UK)
Sorry Caroline, I was under the impression that third from the left was identified as Burke?
Tranquilizers are just to your left love! :)
                                                                 Bill.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 07 December 05 18:01 GMT (UK)
Thanks Bill, I've  now amended.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: MJP on Wednesday 07 December 05 20:35 GMT (UK)
Hi all! 

Just wanted to let you know that I am returned from my global wanderings and am heading off for the Archives right this very minute.  Just thought I should check in here for new info first.  I'm armed with all the photos that have been posted so far and all identifications and speculations. 

I'm hoping at least for photos that will confirm everyone's deductions about the identities from the crew photo, and hopefully some later next-of-kin info that could help us track down living relatives. (perhaps from pension records?? Would their families have received long-term pensions for them, or was that only for widows??)  An identification of the original mystery photo will, I fear, be a long shot, unless the very same photo is found in one of the files.  But you never know! 

I'll report back ASAP...

Martha
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: MJP on Thursday 08 December 05 03:52 GMT (UK)
So... back from the Archives.  I've found a few more pieces for the puzzle. 

I must confess I didn't look in detail at the movement records of each of them, to see if they were always together, in training etc..  I was focused mainly on looking for photos and for next of kin addresses.  The files are quite extensive, so it took me a few hours to just do that. 

Anyway, I have unfortunately not been able to identify our mystery boy, but he seems to bear a striking resemblence to Villeneuve's ID photo in his file.  He could be a younger brother, possibly dressed up in the uniform for fun.  (Someone earlier said it looks like the jacket is too big for him.) I don't think it is an early photo of our Villeneuve though - he was already 20 when he enlisted and the photo was taken shortly after. 

The good news is that the deductions made about the identities of the crew are correct.  The order, from left to right, is Hamel, Groulx, Burke, Allison, DuSablon, and Villeneuve.   

Hamel:  his file includes the proceedings of the official inquiry into the crash.  It seems they lost their stafboard engine, he tried to make an emergency landing but flew through a rain cloud and hit the terraced area on the side of a mountain.  Apparently there was also some sort of controversy or mix up about the signals he sent out once they were in trouble.  The inquiry found him to be "mainly responsible" for the crash, due to "bad captaincy in his signals procedure in an emergency" and "possible lack of confidence in flying on instruments alone".  Despite this verdict, he did receive a posthumous promotion to Pilot Officer (?), so I don't really get that.  Also, him amd the crew are all listed as "pupils", so I guess they were still in training. 

Before enlisting he was a clerk at the Montreal Stock Exchange, then a time keeper at Foundation Co. of Canada, then an accountant with the T. Eaton Co. in Halifax Nova Scotia (until recently, one of Canada's oldest departent stores).  He had 5 siblings - Georges (a Gunner), Louis, Roger, Gertrude and Lucile. 

His father died in 1940.  His mother seems to have had several high-up jobs, judging by the letterhead on the various letters in the file: Wartime Prices and Trade Board, Director of the Quebec Office of the Health League of Canada, etc.  Interestingly, there was also an letter of inquiry sent to the Canadian Embassy in London on behalf of Mrs. Hamel from Miss Vera Grenfell, lady-in-wainting to Princess Alice, asking for particulars on Hamel's death, since info was slow in coming through official channels.  I have no idea what the connection there was.

The most recent address in the file is for his mother in 1945. 

Groulx: Before enlisting he was a plumbers assistant.  There are 1945 addresses for his mother, Mrs. Alexandrine Groulx, and his sister, Mrs. Gaston Desmarais.  There was also a request in 1977 for his death certificate from a Mrs. Raymond Chausse, with an address in Trois Rivieres, Quebec, but there is no indcation of what her relationship is to him.  His mother was his dependent and was receiving a pension for him.

Burke:  I won't report everything here, since contact has already been made with the family.  It would be nice to let them know what is in the file though and how to get copies because I'm sure they would find it interesting.  I will PM Janice with some details and hopefully she can forward it to the Burkes. 

Allison: unfortunately the Archives forgot to bring his file out for me, but luckily we already have quite a bit of info on him. 

DuSablon: Before enlistment he was an usher at the Capital Theatre in Montreal, and then a clerk at the post office.  His father was a conductor for Canadian Pacific Railway.  He liked making model aircraft.  Amongst his personal effects returned to his family was a mouth organ, a photo album, and a locket.  He had to interrupt his training in order to go for intensive English lessons.   He had siblings Richard, Jean, Jacques, Raymonde and Helene.  In 1985, his sister Raymonde Bibeau made a request for info, so there is an address for her at that time.

Villeneuve:  He was born in Saskatchewan in 1922, but lived in Quebec.  His father was a barber, and his mother was reported as deceased in 1923 (which doesn't fit with the idea of him being the half brother of the Senator.)  He was trained in judo.  He worked as a cashier at Steinberg's Groceteria in Montreal, then as a Tool Setter at Defense Industries Ltd., an ammunitions factory.  Strangely, his file also contained a sheet of instructions for knitting men's cable socks!  Amongst his personal effects was a trigonometry text book.  He had brothers Henry and Arthur and sisters Laurencia and Claire.  The most recent address is for his father in 1951. 

Whew!  I think that's it.  I'm going to do a bit of searching based on the addresses I have, but I'm not sure that I will find anything, as most of them are not recent enough.  But I'll let you know what I find....

Martha
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: liverpool annie on Thursday 08 December 05 04:35 GMT (UK)


Martha!!

What a wonderful job you have done!! Thank you for sharing that with us !

Annie  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Thursday 08 December 05 04:39 GMT (UK)
Martha

Great Job!!! I would be happy to get in touch with the Burke family for you. Just let me know.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Thursday 08 December 05 09:49 GMT (UK)
Well done Martha!  That's a marathon effort.  What a lot of information you found!
 :)
Prue
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Thursday 08 December 05 10:30 GMT (UK)
What can I say,
        If we don't find out who the photo' is of, it won't be for lack of trying - you've really worked on this!
                                        Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Thursday 08 December 05 18:19 GMT (UK)
Well done Martha, great details.  Without you taking the time we would never have found all the information you had so thank you.

Regarding Villeneuve, I share your confusion as the Senator does mention his "step-brothers" as being  Jules and Henry with a sister called Claire and  in his article there is a photograph of him and his mother Clara Chartrand, maybe Clara was step-mother to Jules and listed in the notice (and the Villeneuve family web sites) as his natural mother had passed away?  Anyway, I won't digress there...

There is so much info on the files, at least it will encourage anyone else searching family members to go to the Archives to find out further information.

Thanks to everyone for all your hard work...we may never find out who the picture was of but it has been interesting follwing all of the postings and help.


Caroline



Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Thursday 08 December 05 22:09 GMT (UK)
Hello again

We wait weeks for some further information and then get great news from Martha and also further information found from McGills.

Details received are as follows was that they had been in contact with the sole surviving sister of William Allison and was planning to pay her a visit in the near future.  They have found out that she is able to identify all the men in the photograph of the crew and apparently has a copy of it with the names and addresses on the back. 

She also confirms that Charles Hamel was the pilot (he had two younger brothers in Montreal who the Allison family used to be in contact with – their names were Louis and Roger). The Allisons also became friends with Charles Hamel’s mother. We also have confirmation that Bill Allison was the bombardier on the fatal flight.

Amazing...we wait weeks for a lead and then two in 24 hours!  Will keep you posted if I have further information.

Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Friday 09 December 05 04:04 GMT (UK)
Caroline

Great Job!!!

All of the work that has been put into this search is absolutely amazing. Although I have had nothing new to add recently, I have checked in constantly.

Thank you Caroline for starting this post. It has been quite an experience being a part of this. 

Let's hope we do learn the name of this young man.

Janice

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Friday 09 December 05 12:42 GMT (UK)
Brilliant work Martha! Now with the latest gen. from McGills,we have definite ID's on all the crew.
I see that DuSablon had siblings, have we any info at all on their ages? I think that if the original photograph resembles anyone, DuSablon would get my vote. From Martha's post about personal effects, he would seem to be the most likely to carry a picture of a younger brother.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Friday 09 December 05 22:42 GMT (UK)
Does anyone know, or is it possible to find out if Du Sablon's siblings were ever in the R.A.A.F.?
                                                Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 12 December 05 22:25 GMT (UK)
Hello

I have an update regarding William Allison:

McGills have visited the sole remaining sibling of seven.  William was the second oldest and she is the youngest.  She has all his letters and also the same photograph of the crew with all their names listed on the back.  McGills have scanned and put the names on the picture, it is a far better quality picture then the one I originally posted.  They also add:

Quote
We hope to use the story of Bill Allison and the work of the various volunteer contributors as an example of why McGill (and other universities) should provide their records on the web. The University of Glasgow has led the way with the release of their WW1 files in 2004. We hope that the photo your grandfather found, and the subsequent interest it generated 60 years later will stand as an example of how valuable these stories are to a larger part of the population

His sister has emailed and said she is "Overwhelmed by the reverance that is shown to those men".  Her family stayed in touch with the family of Charles Hamel for a number of years and she has confirmed that the photograph is not Charles or either of his siblings, Roger and Louis.


Caroline

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Bill Green on Wednesday 21 December 05 21:31 GMT (UK)
Just to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas and a Happy, Prosperous and Healthy New Year. :)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Monday 26 December 05 15:36 GMT (UK)
I have heard from the brother of Joseph Paul Ernest Burke, and he and his family would like to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

He and his family are still amazed with everyone's efforts in finding the identity of the young man in the photo.  They have also shown an interest in getting in touch with other family members of the crew, and hope to pursue this in the new year.

Mr. Burke wanted me to thank all who have helped, and I have promised to send on any new information that is found.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Tuesday 27 December 05 13:40 GMT (UK)
Hi

This site might be of interest to others so I thought I'd post the address.  It lists war memorials.

http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.002


Regarding this particular project, I checked to see if the memorial at Carreg Goch was listed around a month ago, there was little information so I emailed asking if they would be interested to list the names of the crew and maybe a photograph etc. 

Had a reply a few days ago saying they would be interested and to send as much as possible including pictures taken by Damien of the memorial and plaque.  I'm also trying to find out when the memorial was built.  The bottom of the plaque had the name "BP Chemicals" who are based at Llandarcy, South Wales, I'm trying to find out if they have information on the date it was built etc.  It all helps to complete the listing.

Hope you all had a great Chrismas and all the best for the new year.

Regards
Caroline



Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Monday 02 January 06 15:21 GMT (UK)
Wonderful news to hear that there is more information about our boys.  I haven't had a notification for ages, for some reason, so was pleased to read all these updates on crew lineup and Martha's find at the archive...better photo and more communication with family.
   Just the news that these families want to get together to commemorate the
joint memory of the lads brings a tear to my eyes, and seems a singularly nice outcome in itself....
     I'll add this update to the other thread.
             Happy new year to you all!   J.J
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 06 February 06 18:03 GMT (UK)
Hello

It's been a while since there was an update, to this posting.  There have been some developments which have been summarised below.

Thanks to everyone for your help so far.

Regards
Caroline



Quote

Update on the crew of MF-509

 
At the end of October 2005 Caroline posted a request for help in identifying a photo retrieved by her grandfather from a Wellington bomber that crashed on Carreg Goch in November 1944. Since the time a number of developments have taken place, and this is a brief summary of those advances. First, three of the families of the six airmen who lost their lives have been contacted. They are the Burke family in New Brunswick, the Allison family in Quebec and the Hamel family, also in Quebec. All families were very moved by the work of this group in identifying and then contacting family members 61 years after the plane crash. The families were unaware that the crash site still existed and that a memorial had been erected there.

 
Bill Allison , one of the crewmembers, was one of seven children in his family, and the only boy. The sole remaining sister of Bill, Phyllis, will be traveling to Wales in May 2006 to visit the site and meet some of the people who have contributed. This trip would not have been possible without the work of many people on Rootschat and elsewhere and she would like to thank all of you. If you are interested in more information about this trip, please let us know by a posting. Phyllis has been in contact with both the Burke and Hamel families to share these latest developments.

 
Unfortunately the identity of the airman in the original photo is still not known. It is likely that it is not any of the crewmembers who were lost in the crash. We now know that prior to the crash the crew’s regular navigator Gaston Caron was replaced by Jules Villeneuve, So although it is Caron pictured in the crew photo, he was not aboard the plane and also survived the war. McGill University in Montreal will be doing a story in their magazine and hopefully this will produce additional information and leads, particularly if the story is picked up by the national newspapers.

 
Once again I express the thanks of the family of the airmen who now have a chance to have a more complete sense of what happened in November 1944, and also to see the care and compassion of those who worked on supplying the various pieces of the puzzle.

 
Wes (on behalf of many people)



[/size]

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: MJP on Tuesday 07 February 06 15:54 GMT (UK)
Wow you guys!  That is fabulous.  It's so nice that the sister is actually going to visit the site and that the families are in contact. 

Great work!  Keep us updated - I'd love to hear about the trip.

Martha
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 17 April 06 15:47 BST (UK)
Hello everyone

It's been a while since an update has been posted.  The team from McGill’s have done a great job and managed to contact Mr Earl Scofield, step-brother to Jules Villeneuve.  His son has kindly supplied a photograph of Jules (the identity of the lady in the photograph is not known).  He has given permission for it be posted here. 

It is now know that the man in the original crew photograph is Gaston Caron and not Jules who replaced Caron.

Plans are in place for the visit to memorial site at Carreg Goch next month, a number of local people have also been of great help and one great source (a local mountain tour guide who knows the area well) has arranged with the Brecon Beacons National Park to help with a heavy duty vehicle so that Bill's sister can get to within half a mile of the memorial.  They have been quick to respond with their help.  At present it now seems that there will be around 11 of us visiting the site on the day.

Fingers crossed for the weather to be kind.

Regards, Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 17 April 06 16:41 BST (UK)
Photo of Jules Villeneuve
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: mitchell on Tuesday 18 April 06 20:49 BST (UK)
Caroline,

I've followed this story from day one and just wanted to say I think that what you guys have done is wonderful and to thank you for the update... I'm sure that the visit to the memorial site will be very emotional for everyone and I'll definately keep my fingers crossed that the weather stays good for you.

Elaine
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: liverpool annie on Tuesday 18 April 06 20:58 BST (UK)


I agree !  :)

thanks for all the time and effort to find out all you can about these young men !!

And please tell what happens ....... !

Annie  :) :)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Tuesday 18 April 06 21:02 BST (UK)
I agree,  you have just done such a marvelous job, Caroline, and just look at all the recruits who've joined in along the way.

I get a tear in my eye each time I read the thread....all the best and Cyber hugs...
from Canada   J.J.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Tuesday 18 April 06 21:59 BST (UK)
Caroline,

What a great job you have done!

Thank you for keeping us updated. It has continued to amaze me, just how much information has been gathered and how many people came together to try and solve this mystery.

What a great honour for the families of these young men, to realize that their loved ones have not been forgotten.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Wednesday 19 April 06 00:07 BST (UK)
Great work Caroline,
        While some (myself) started with plenty of gusto I must admit to tapering off later and just waiting, meanwhile here's good ol' you still plodding quietly away.
         You should be proud of your marathon effort, we're all proud of you.

                                                  Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: manmack on Wednesday 19 April 06 12:40 BST (UK)
GOOD GIRL,your relentless search paid off,and now your hard work is going to be turned into a very memorable day for you,best wishes,mack
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 19 April 06 18:33 BST (UK)
Thanks for all your messages but I have to pass the credit over to the team at McGills, they have worked hard on this and done a great job in tracking down the family of Bill Allison and Jules Villeneuve, and so have everyone else in here.  I had no idea that things would have got this far.  Will keep you all posted.

2 left to find...you never know...and also what became of Gaston Caron?  I guess that's another topic for another day!


Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: COLL TWO on Saturday 09 September 06 12:23 BST (UK)
Here is my contribution..good luck with your search
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Wednesday 01 November 06 19:23 GMT (UK)
It's been a while since I posted an update, so hope you are all still interested to hear more.
 
About three months ago Bill Allison's sister gave an interview with the Montreal Gazette and they published the story on the crew and the events leading to finding the families.

After that CBC contacted McGill's and wanted to do a radio interview for their Sunday morning show, I did my part long distance from Wales.  We were hoping that we may have a response from the two families not yet contacted but unfortunately this was not the case.

Then out of the blue, a few weeks ago I was contacted by the sister of Gerald Dusablon.  Through a friend she had heard of the newspaper report and had contacted me to find out more.   I passed on information received to date together with some photographs.

A local news cameraman came along and made a great DVD documenting the story of the airmen and the climb to Carreg Goch.  He has given permission for it to be posted online, but I have no idea how to do it!  Wes from McGill's visited her and took a copy for her to see.

As with the other families contacted, she was unaware of what had happend and is grateful for what everyone has done to help.

So just one family left to find....

Caroline
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: KarenM on Wednesday 01 November 06 19:35 GMT (UK)
Wow, Caroline, that is just wonderful.  Thank you so much for keeping us updated.

Karen
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: PrueM on Wednesday 01 November 06 19:38 GMT (UK)
Fantastic news Caroline...isn't it amazing where one little photo has led us all!  :D
And youi're now a multi-media star!!  8)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: JDG on Wednesday 01 November 06 19:41 GMT (UK)
That is wonderful news!
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: COLL TWO on Wednesday 01 November 06 21:22 GMT (UK)
Great news Caroline, i also had a wonderful result from a newspaper.  Good luck and thank you for the update Colleen, Australia
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: J.J. on Wednesday 01 November 06 21:28 GMT (UK)
My favourite thread....so much has been unturned in the past year!
Great work Caroline...Hugs to all....
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Wednesday 01 November 06 22:20 GMT (UK)
It's been a long time but slowly the bits are coming together. I often wonder if a thread has come to a full stop - particularly this one, but this proves that everything is still in our minds - and someone somewhere is working on it.

                                            Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Wednesday 01 November 06 22:48 GMT (UK)
Caroline

What great news!  So glad it's still moving forward. Denn, you are so right. This story never really leaves our minds, especially at this time of year.

Great Job Everyone! :-*
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: goggy on Thursday 02 November 06 01:49 GMT (UK)
A solid Gold job of work by all concerned,one of them could have been one mine.
       Thank you.
                  Goggy. :(
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: chinakay on Tuesday 13 March 07 18:37 GMT (UK)
What a fantastic thread! I've just now found it, and spent much more time than I should have reading it :D Thanks to George and Denn for pointing to it from the Photo board.

Are there any new developments?

And, does anybody see a resemblance here?

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: KarenM on Tuesday 13 March 07 19:19 GMT (UK)
HI China,

Yes I can see a resemblance.

Karen
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: liverpool lass on Tuesday 13 March 07 19:57 GMT (UK)
Wow! When I first saw the new picture I thought you'd found another rellie....then I realised who it was! Uncanny!!

Great job everyone, its been fascinating reading.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: Lloydy on Tuesday 13 March 07 20:35 GMT (UK)

What a fantastic thread!!!!!

Thanks to China for posting a reply today and "nudging" it back to the top.  I've never seen it before and I'm so glad that I have.

I have read every post and you lot are all wonderful.  Well done everyone.

Jan :D
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Fisherman on Tuesday 13 March 07 22:30 GMT (UK)
What an amazing thread.  Well done everyone.
I only wish I'd found it earlier.
I know the crash site well and visit it two or three times a year.
About 40 years ago an old family friend gave me a piece of the wreckage and told me of his involvement on that fatefull night.  He lived in Cwmgiedd a village not  far away and heard the explosion of the crash.  He along with his brother joined a group of local men that went out onto the mountain that night, led by a local shepherd, to look for survivors.  The area was ablaze and it was obvious  that the aircrew had perished.
The military took away quite a bit of the wreckage including the engines and guns.   Part of the airframe is still there.
I still have the little piece of wreckage given me all those years ago.

Fisherman
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: goggy on Wednesday 14 March 07 02:08 GMT (UK)
Just one word sum,s it up China,
  HOTGODDAM!
           Goggy. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: roxque on Thursday 22 March 07 23:27 GMT (UK)
What an amazing resemblance. They could be brothers.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: J.J. on Friday 23 March 07 01:24 GMT (UK)
Wow, China, he seems to resemble the photo quite strongly... :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A niece of one of my father's aircrew has contacted me due to my
website, and was interested in information from my father's log
book, etc, as her uncle died quite young and hated to speak about
the war...He wrote a letter to her in which he recalls his experience
on the Wellington....the night training ...Brought these boys to mind once again...
as well as the feeling of gratitude that my Dad and his crew survived....J..J.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: lawra on Friday 23 March 07 02:10 GMT (UK)
i've just spent the past 2 hours reading every single page of this topic. This is totally amazing what everyone involved achieved.  As i posted on another topic board earlier this is the forums to be on when someone needs help, everyone of you who have done this have just prooved my point! Weel done all,

Laura
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: chinakay on Sunday 25 March 07 22:43 BST (UK)
Congratulations, Caroline, this post has had 13,000 views. That doesn't happen very often...it's a fantastic thread.

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Lydart on Saturday 07 July 07 21:20 BST (UK)
Here's another viewing ... what a fascinating story and I'm so glad someone else on RC pointed me in its direction !    This is what RC is for ! 
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: freddiebean on Saturday 07 July 07 21:21 BST (UK)
WOW!
I only found this thread today, have just spent three hours reading all the postings, absolutely fantastic, Albeit a little late I just want to say ..... Well done all of you.

Julia
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: maryd on Tuesday 17 July 07 23:15 BST (UK)
Superb and well done!!!!!

There is a memorial in a small church in Cumbria - Lamplugh I think, with a memorial to german soldiers killed in a crash on the fells....I think I might go and take a look - it seems to mean so much to others.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Tuesday 24 July 07 04:36 BST (UK)
I don't know if anyone has seen this or not, but it seems that this article has made it onto the "Wikipedia" site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF-509

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: J.J. on Tuesday 24 July 07 13:59 BST (UK)
Hi, all...
That's a good little article that some more family may also come across!
The memorial has been there since the war but mentioning the hikers and momentos in that last paragraph, although accurate...should maybe have been after the paragraph about the memorial itself....as it sounds a bit  as though the site has only just been honoured lately...  ( just a suggestion for the submitter if they read this  :D )
 Cyber hugs to all...J.J.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: mc8 on Tuesday 24 July 07 14:05 BST (UK)
Hi, all...
That's a good little article that some more family may also come across!
The memorial has been there since the war but mentioning the hikers and momentos in that last paragraph, although accurate...should maybe have been after the paragraph about the memorial itself....as it sounds a bit  as though the site has only just been honoured lately... 
 Cyber hugs to all...J.J.
perhaps you should correct the article-and give a plug to rootschat whilst you're at it
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: DianaM on Tuesday 24 July 07 14:14 BST (UK)
Quote
perhaps you should correct the article-and give a plug to rootschat whilst you're at it
Quote

I agree!  Credit where it's due...
Diana
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: J.J. on Tuesday 24 July 07 14:27 BST (UK)
I can't...it says that I am blocked, although I have never contributed  ::)  :P
 
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Thursday 30 August 07 20:55 BST (UK)
Hi all

I've not logged in for a while but I've still been on the lookout for further information.  Unfortunately there are no further updates at the moment on finding the Groulx family or any information on Gaston Caron.   

I'm still amazed with the number of hits this page has had and its good to give it a nudge to the front page now and again, new members might come across it and know something.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Lydart on Thursday 30 August 07 22:43 BST (UK)
I've no idea how one can update a Wiki article, but know it can be done ... can someone reading this with the knowhow, do it, and give RootsChat a little credit for this ? 

I'm amazed at the number of 'reads' this one has had !
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: Jimson on Monday 10 September 07 22:02 BST (UK)
I'm not sure the Wellington memorial has been there since the war.  I don't remember seeing a memorial when I first went there in about 1950.  In the 60s or 70s there was a simple tag attached to a piece of the wreckage giving the names of the crew.  The present substantial memorial is rather more recent.  I think.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: J.J. on Monday 10 September 07 22:30 BST (UK)
I believe that having left the wreckage and the list of names would have been considered in itself a memorial at the time... It takes some money and time to come up with a plaque... The important thing is the remembrance and respect for these men.
There are so many crash sites in the world..I wonder if they all have something to remember the names of the fellows who lost their lives there... :-\   
 
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: J.J. on Monday 10 September 07 22:39 BST (UK)
 :D By the way, I never did mention...kudos to the Montreal Gazzette for
running the story. I was sure the local Wpg. Sun would rush it off to the
mother "Sun" in Quebec...and it was coming up to Nov. 11th... so a good
one to run across the nation... Eillo & I had all the information nicely
compacted and ready for edit should it need it...
...but they dropped the ball at the last minute and had a million excuses...
 :P  Journalists have the last say in what makes a good story, I'm afraid...
Judging by the 17,090 hits that this posting has had to date....maybe they
might just be sorry now....heh,heh... ;)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Monday 10 September 07 23:06 BST (UK)
JJ... thanks for the reminder about the Montreal Gazette, I don't think I had a link listed previously for the article.  I think it's too long to post here but the link is below if anyone wants to take a look.  It has information on the McGills project which could be of interest to others searching.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/saturdayextra/story.html?id=e232474a-ad99-472c-be52-6d3465a57312

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: J.J. on Wednesday 19 September 07 21:23 BST (UK)
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Sorry to hijack the thread once again Caroline but I have an update on the
fight with the Canadian War museum to change the plaque wording...Thanks
to all who wrote to the museum & Gov't bodies to help put pressure on them
to make this change! We are not allowed to join in this controversial debate
on rootschat so....
Please do NOT reply in this thread, but add any comments to the link I have
posted here, in Reply # 2...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,222810.0.html
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: dennford on Friday 09 November 07 05:57 GMT (UK)
I just recieved an email and purely by mistake I opened it (I normally delete all emails from unknown scources),

I don't know who the writer (Bill Grey) is and can't find any mention of him on the thread. However he obviously has some interest in the mystery so her is the short message from him.

"Hi Dennis,

As one who has been  heavily involved over the last two years in giving
details, photos etc to both PhyllisBurns (nee Allison) and Wes Cross of
McGill University, I and others have studied the photograph together
with one or two of the crew photographs and have come to a calculated
guess that the unknown airman is the original navigator of MF 509 - viz
Gaston Carron

There is a photograph of Bill Allison and a sergeant studying a map near
the front of a Wellington, and in spite of the flying helmet, we are
convinced the sergeant is Gaston Carron.

The point is - where is Gaston Carron now, or whatever happened to him ?

I really wonder??

Regards,
--

Bill Grey"


Denn
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: chinakay on Friday 09 November 07 06:15 GMT (UK)
Just in case anyone's googling, it's Caron, not Carron.

Still think the photo is Villeneuve, though...the resemblance is really amazing.

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: liverpool annie on Friday 09 November 07 06:35 GMT (UK)


Denn !

Bill Grey is mentioned here !

http://www.archives.mcgill.ca/public/exhibits/mcgillremembers/allisonstory.htm

Annie  :)

PS Gaston Caron is a name in Quebec politics ..... !
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: KarenM on Friday 09 November 07 14:28 GMT (UK)
Has contact been made with the Villeneuve family?  A friend of ours has just been named as Jacques new race engineer for 2008.

Karen
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: J.J. on Friday 09 November 07 14:48 GMT (UK)
We need to think about this really hard...Originally we were assuming the photo was one of the crew from the downed aircraft...

Although an intriguing question...I think any who have spoken to veterans know Mr. Caron likely has enough wartime demons...and because he may be living, we probably should not be looking for him. Should he or a family member find this thread and choose to join in...I think that might be more appropriate?


J.J.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: Caroline_d on Friday 09 November 07 18:27 GMT (UK)
I just recieved an email and purely by mistake I opened it (I normally delete all emails from unknown scources),

I don't know who the writer (Bill Grey) is and can't find any mention of him on the thread. However he obviously has some interest in the mystery so her is the short message from him.

"Hi Dennis,

As one who has been  heavily involved over the last two years in giving
details, photos etc to both PhyllisBurns (nee Allison) and Wes Cross of
McGill University, I and others have studied the photograph together
with one or two of the crew photographs and have come to a calculated
guess that the unknown airman is the original navigator of MF 509 - viz
Gaston Carron

There is a photograph of Bill Allison and a sergeant studying a map near
the front of a Wellington, and in spite of the flying helmet, we are
convinced the sergeant is Gaston Carron.

The point is - where is Gaston Carron now, or whatever happened to him ?

I really wonder??

Regards,
--

Bill Grey"


Denn

Hi Denn,

I've been in contact with Bill Grey, he has visited the memorial site a few times and was also one of many who made the hike last May.  After I contacted McGills they contacted people who had taken photograhs in the area and Bill was contacted via a friend who kept a website so he has been updated etc on the story since finding the McGills connection.  He has been kept up to date of all the findings including updates on this website (sounds confusing!).

Most presume the photograph belongs to Gaston Caron.  JJ, I note your comments about finding him, and I too have presumed if he or a family member had come across the thread they can choose not to get in touch which is totally understood.  We have hit a brick wall with Gaston Caron and it looks likely that we will never know.

An update:
Recently I was contacted by someone who had come across this thread.  He mentioned it to a friend of his who has written a few books, including stories of tracing crew members.

The author is Edward Dolyrsh.  He asked for information on this story but only had a week to get the final edit back to the publisher.  I forwarded a link of this thread as it holds most of the information found to date and all the effort put in by so many people.  I also forwarded the McGills website and the blog which is also in use. 

I have no idea if any of the information will appear in the book but it is goes on sale early December, so I'll keep an eye out and let you know. 

The author is Edward Dolyerush and the book is called Rocks in the Clouds, here is the Amazon link:

 long link to Amazon.co.uk  (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rocks-Clouds-High-ground-Aircraft-Crashes/dp/1857802810/ref=sr_1_5/202-5317258-9108626?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194632382&sr=1-5)




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Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Friday 09 November 07 18:31 GMT (UK)
Has contact been made with the Villeneuve family?  A friend of ours has just been named as Jacques new race engineer for 2008.

Karen


Karen, the Villeneuve family have been contacted on his mothers side.  We drew a blank from his fathers side.  His half-brother sent a prayer stone which was placed at the site. 

I used to Google Jules Villeneuve to see if there were updates and would always come across this site first.....now since Jacques named his son Jules, its kind of getting in the way and when I think I've found something new, its news on the baby and not the navagator.  

A photograph of Jules can be found here:

http://mf509.blogspot.com/2006/04/photo-of-jules-villeneuve.html
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: Aussie Karrob on Sunday 11 November 07 08:37 GMT (UK)
Hi there,
Congratulations one and all.  Fantastic.  Huge. WOW and all other superlatives to you and other helpers.

 :( Sadly I must be the slowest person on here in the Roots family.  Only today have I come across this wonderful story.  A male of 57 yrs, I have been reduced to tears many times reading this story of selfless giving; showing embarrassment when an accolade is thrown your way, and deflecting that accolade toward others.  NOT SO NOW.  YOU WEAR THAT ACCOLADE ON YOUR MOST GENEROUS SHOULDERS please, from a most humbled Aussie.

It is people like you that set the example of "generosity of spirit" to the rest of the world.  A world who many in this Roots family often make complaint about.

There are not many people that I would willingly be on my knees to, BUT FOR YOU LOT I WOULD MAKE AN EXCEPTION with no hesitation at all.  And I would remain there as long as it took for you all to recognise the generous spirit in each of you.

I had to live with a father who enlisted in the Australian Army in Sydney in 1939.  After Officer Training School he went to Artillery School in the belief that if he knew enough he could then be posted overseas to help lead the men.  That never happened which saddened and embittered him for ever.

I have some appreciation for that which you have done for our fellow Canadian families.

This story is the pinnacle WOW experience for me here on Roots and I am  :'( :'( :'( my eyes out again as I write this tribute to you all, the researchers.

Robert
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Caroline_d on Friday 16 November 07 20:06 GMT (UK)
For anyone wishing to see the DVD of when we visited the Wellington at Carreg Goch, May 2007, it can now be viewed on Youtube at the link below.

Many thanks to Peter at Freeway Productions for making the video and allowing it to be posted on the web. 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bmbC7eAuSjc

UPDATE:

Peter has kindly added a page to his own company Website which has the Wellington story and the DVD can also be viewed.

http://www.freeway-productions.co.uk/




Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: KarenM on Friday 16 November 07 20:24 GMT (UK)
Wonderful Caroline, thanks for posting that!!!

Karen
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Friday 16 November 07 23:23 GMT (UK)
Caroline

Thank you for sharing the video with us.  It was wonderful. Hopefully the families know that it's on YouTube.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: J.J. on Saturday 17 November 07 04:47 GMT (UK)
Thank you, Caroline...
 My hubby & I watched with the usual "damp" eyes. Very well done video.
I did not know that the wreckage had almost been moved to a "back yard".    Sad ...that person did not realize the significance of the remaining aircraft. (and good for Mr. Michael & his group to thwart the effort)
  We think of these boys often... J.J.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: mitchell on Sunday 18 November 07 12:43 GMT (UK)
Caroline,

Thank you for posting the link...very moving video.

Elaine
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: EVG on Saturday 24 November 07 22:42 GMT (UK)
What a sad story, but such a lovely video.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: GerryC on Tuesday 13 May 08 07:33 BST (UK)
Greetings from Canada:
I have found this story very interesting.  My recommendation is that the photos - crew and individuals - be submitted to each of the men's pages on the Canadian Virtual War Memorial website.  They are very happy to be able to add info to the individual pages and I have submitted several hundreds of photos as well as stories.
It is simple to do.  You can type Canadian Virtual War Memorial in the search engine and it will take you to the website and then type each man's name and date of death in their search engine.
On the man's page you will see how to send them photos.
If anyone finds this daunting, I would be very happy to do it for you.
As well, I am always looking for photos of grave markers to submit and would appreciate anyone to visits graves with Canadian servicemen to send them and I'll submit them, crediting the submitter.
My email is (*)



(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed - by request  :) - and in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the PM system for exchanging personal data.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Lydart on Tuesday 13 May 08 08:08 BST (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat Gerry, and thanks for the info.


(Not sure if the moderators will let you keep your email address on here... we usually ask people to PM us ... thats a personal message, using the little green scroll symbol under your name on the left)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he
Post by: GerryC on Tuesday 13 May 08 13:56 BST (UK)
Thanks very much.  Didn't realize that so maybe it could be deleted.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Wednesday 14 May 08 05:08 BST (UK)
Hi Gerry and Welcome!

I think that is a great idea!  I'm sure Caroline will too.

Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Janice M on Thursday 27 November 08 05:13 GMT (UK)
No news unfortunately, but instead an old newspaper article. I was hoping that it would show their photo's, but sadly, no. Maybe someone will see this site and check the Quebec papers? 


Janice
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: Aussie Karrob on Thursday 27 November 08 05:49 GMT (UK)
OK OK who stole the images??????  :'(

One of the things that brought me to tears reading this post was the selfless generosity given by some ace image restorers, to restoring some old Wartime pictures.  Especially the images of Aircrew standing atop aircraft in front of a hangar.

So who stole the images?  Where are they now?

Im only one peg short of disgusted that they are removed from this thread.  Please help me to understand the reasoning.

Cheers
Robert
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: WelwynGC1 on Thursday 02 April 09 08:28 BST (UK)
Like several others, l have just just spent time reading this thread and l have to say that you folk have restored my faith in mankind.
Fantastically well done. Another tear jerker.

Steve.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: geordie212 on Saturday 23 January 16 18:41 GMT (UK)
Hi
I just stumbled across this and at the same time came across an entry on Find a Grave which might answer your question as there is a group photo on this page
 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=56184103

Alison
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: chinakay on Saturday 23 January 16 21:47 GMT (UK)
Hi Alison, welcome to Rootschat!

Interesting, hadn't seen the group photo before. One of the crew isn't in it, Villeneuve. I still think it's Villeneuve  :)

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: geordie212 on Saturday 23 January 16 22:24 GMT (UK)
Hi China,
I think you are right. I found an enlargement of the group photo in this newspaper article
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2457447/A-touching-tribute-The-tragic-Second-World-War-crash-sites-hidden-Welsh-hills.html
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: J.J. on Sunday 24 January 16 08:51 GMT (UK)
Caroline had found that photo way back at the beginning...I recognize it well since I spent many hours cleaning up that and other images.   :) J.J.

p.s. Caron was not on the flight... Here is a link to the other thread with the image
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=104577.msg448810#msg448810


p.p.s. I wonder if anyone ever checked with Caron's family to see if that was an image of his younger brother? We all thought that was who he resembled most...
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: geordie212 on Sunday 24 January 16 12:41 GMT (UK)
There is a military Museum in Manitoba (Canada) which put out the book "They Shall Grow Not Old". It lists the 18,000 + airmen and women who died overseas in WWII, there are no personal photos in the book but they might have access to records with photos on them.

Would you like me to pass the message & photo on to them and see if they can help?

Alison
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: geordie212 on Sunday 24 January 16 14:44 GMT (UK)
Hi
A friend  (very knowledgeable about RCAF) just found this photo on Canadian Virtual War Memorial and she thinks it is probably Gaston Caron, someone had the photo because Caron was not on that flight.

Alison
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: chinakay on Sunday 24 January 16 17:28 GMT (UK)
Jules Villeneuve, RCAF and Jacques Villeneuve, Formula-1 driver. I think he's a great nephew or something.
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: chinakay on Sunday 24 January 16 17:29 GMT (UK)
I remember that photo now, JJ. Sorry :P :)
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: geordie212 on Sunday 24 January 16 17:43 GMT (UK)
seems to have similar facial features. Wouldn't it be wonderful to know for sure.
Alison
Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: J.J. on Sunday 24 January 16 18:01 GMT (UK)
Not at all China! I'd not have known remembered myself had I not worked on the images!

There certainly is a great deal of similarity in the two images you posted.....I remember seeing the image of the furmula one driver, so this was probably discussed before as well, was it?... ;D
Too long a thread to check. J.J.

Title: Re: Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?
Post by: chinakay on Tuesday 26 January 16 16:40 GMT (UK)
No, nobody discussed it at the time, they'd already decided it was Caron I think. But those two Villeneuve faces are sooo similar!