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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Romilly on Friday 04 November 05 11:54 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
After a long search, I have now obtained a death certificate for my late uncle, Ernest Rencella WILSON (1897-1957).
On his death certificate it gives his place of death as being:
2a Southern Grove
Stepney
London E3.
I had always thought that he had died in The London Hospital(Mile End). Does anyone on here know whether 2a Southern Grove was a residential address in 1957, or part of The London Hospital?
Hoping that someone will be able to help.
Cheers, Romilly.
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Hello
Southern Grove still exists - have a look on this map http://www.multimap.com/
As far as I know it was and still is residential - mostly two-up, two-down late Victorian housing. Some of them are still there, but parts of Southern Grove have modern housing. As you can see it's not that far from the Mile End Hospital. I'm not sure of the numbering system on the road I'm afraid.
Could it be that he died at home and was taken to/was declared dead at the hospital?
Hope that helps.
Regards
Biker
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Hi
I recently had a address query for Stepney, requested an Electoral Register search from the local local history office :
http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/data/community/data/libraries/data/history-archive.cfm
They might be able to help.
Rz
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Hi Rz,
Thanks for the info...I will get onto them.
Cheers, Romilly.
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Hi Biker,
Thanks for the map & info.
The reason that I am puzzled by the address on my uncle's death certificate, is because I had always understood that he was homeless & sleeping rough for the last few years of his life...:-( The story as told to me was that he collapsed at Aldgate East Tube Station & was taken to The London Hospital, where he died. Under Occupation, it says "Formerly a Seaman & Ship's Night Watchman". For that reason, I had wondered if 2a Southern Grove E3 was possibly a Lodging for Merchant Seamen?
Under "signature, description and address of informant" on the Death Cert, is says, (a bit blurrily) r or f(r)? Sando, Causing the body to be buried. 2a Southern Grove E3.
I've tried Manor Park Cemetery, but they have no record of an Ernest Rencella Wilson buried there...
Thanks for the help anyway.
Cheers, Romilly.
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There was a South Grove Infirmary, later became a hospital and was then closed. I found one reference to South Grove (now Southern Grove).
Looking at where South Grove was on the Charles Booth Maps, and comparing to Multimap, we can see that:
1) In the 1880s, South Grove road ran from Mill End Road down past Tower Hamlets Cemetery: here (http://booth.lse.ac.uk/cgi-bin/do.pl?sub=view_booth_and_barth&m.l=0&m.d.l=0&m.p.x=12344&m.p.y=5574&m.p.w=500&m.p.h=309&m.p.l=1&m.t.w=128&m.t.h=80&b.v.x=347&b.v.y=202&b.p.x=21734&b.p.y=6392&b.p.w=500&b.p.h=309&b.p.l=2). You can see just to the West running parallel there is a Maplin Street and to the East on the other side of the workhouse there is Lincoln St.
Now compare with Multimap and a modern day map of the area: here (http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=536750.198669337&Y=182500.649007334&width=500&height=300&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=GB&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&zm=0&out.x=7&out.y=9&scale=5000). There is Southern Grove which runs down from Mill End to the Tower Hamlet's Cemetery. Maplin Street seems to have been truncated but is still there; Lincoln street is now Brokesley. Quite a few of the streets have been rearranged or renamed at some point (probably just post WWII).
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Hi Jorose,
Thanks for the map & info.
I've just spoken to the Archivist at Tower Hamlets, who told me that 2a Southern Grove (Lodge) was an Institution run by the L.C.C. (Records now held by The London Metropolitan Archives). They are closed for stocktaking until the 14th November:-(
However, a lady who I spoke to there just now, told me that Southern Grove Lodge was the former Whitechapel Workhouse. (That would fit in with my uncle being homeless:-(
I just found a harrowing webpage at: (not sure if this link will work)
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/MAB-Casuals/MAB-Casuals.shtml
I think it works:-)
If you click on Homepage it takes you to a link about Workhouses, & Whitechapel Workhouse is on there:
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/index.html
Thanks for the help, Romilly.
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Hi Romilly
My greatgrandfather Isaac Levy lived Southern Grove House before he died in 1943. Apparently it was an old people's home run by the LCC. I wonder, did you ever find any more information about which could tell us more about these ancestors?
With kindest regards
dsandsue
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Hi Romilly
My greatgrandfather Isaac Levy lived Southern Grove House before he died in 1943. Apparently it was an old people's home run by the LCC. I wonder, did you ever find any more information about which could tell us more about these ancestors?
With kindest regards
dsandsue
Hi,
My understanding is that it was a Hostel for Single Homeless men, run by the L.C.C. The records are now held by The Metropolitan Archives.
Romilly.
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Thanks a lot for that, Romilly, I'll check with the LMA next time I'm in England
Best wishes
Derek
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Hi Derek,
I've now had this reply from the LMA:
'We confirm that London Metropolitan Archives (LMA) holds some records of Southern Grove Lodge. These include Admission and Discharge Registers, but only up to 2nd April 1956. We also have 'Occurrence Books' (logbooks) up until 27th September 1957'
HTH, Romilly.
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wow, that's terrific... really good to know... thanks so much
Derek
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Hi Again Derek,
I should add that I have now recieved this email from the LMA:
"We confirm that London Metropolitan Archives (LMA) holds some records of Southern Grove Lodge. These include Admission and Discharge Registers, but only up to 2nd April 1956. We also have 'Occurrence Books' (logbooks) up until 27th September 1957.
These types of records are subject to a period of restricted access under Data Protection legislation in order to protect the confidentiality of living individuals. It is therefore not possible for you to consult the records yourself. However if you are able to provide proof of the death of the individual concerned we are able to undertake the search on your behalf under our paid Family History Research Service. Details of the service and an online application form are available on our website at <http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/visiting-the-city/archives-and-city-history/london-metropolitan-archives/family-history/Pages/Family-History-Research-Service.aspx> http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/visiting-the-city/archives-and-city-history/london-metropolitan-archives/family-history/Pages/Family-History-Research-Service.aspx."
And so it looks like access to the records is restricted. I've written back requesting 'supervised access' to the records, - and will let you know how I get on.
Romilly.
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oh dear... I've looked at their charges.. a minimum of fifty pounds seems a bit steep... I'm interested in my great-grandfather, Isaac Levy, who died 5th May 1943 in the St George in the East Hospital, but the death certificate shows his address as Southern Grove House, so obviously I'd like to see the record of his admission, and anything else relevant...since he had to go to hospital (aged 77) there's a chance that this might be recorded in one of their Occurrence Books...so it looks as if I could find some solid information, which I'd much rather look at myself rather than use their (expensive) services... BUT I didn't see the option of "supervised access" on their website... since I'm a registered reader, and quite used to handling old records, I would also like "supervised access" - so would be very interested in hearing how you get on....
And I really appreciate your kindness in these updates....
Best wishes
Derek
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Hi Again Derek,
I'd agree that the £50 (Minimum) Fee seems a bit steep. Especially when we have researched to get to this point, and have located where the records are located.
However, no doubt they have their reasons...
I will update you when I have heard back. Btw, you might find this Link of interest, - it has photos and info about Southern Grove prior to it's re-development:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ycz/
Best Wishes, Romilly.
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....thanks for the link to the document..fascinating!... it certainly puts Southern Grove into context.... looking forward to hearing how the LMA respond....
Derek
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By the way, I also found the following on Google, just in case you haven't seen it:
http://www.mile-end-residents.co.uk/the-south-grove-workhouse/
Derek
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By the way, I also found the following on Google, just in case you haven't seen it:
http://www.mile-end-residents.co.uk/the-south-grove-workhouse/
Derek
Yes thanks I'd seen that one.
Btw, have you found your GreatGrandfather on the various Censuses?
Romilly.
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yes.... he was born around 1862 (according to the censuses) in Poland (or perhaps Lithuania), and I calculate he and his wife reached London in the 1880s....I have him/them in 1891, 1901 and 1911....
because of his very common name (Isaac Levy) it took me literally years (and pounds and pounds) to find his death certificate and burial, but I have them...
Best wishes
Derek
PS This is probably a little off-topic for Rootsweb - will happily continue by e-mail if you like.
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No go, re: 'Supervised searches' I'm afraid. This is the reply I've had from the LMA:
'Due to Data Protection legislation you will not be able to search the records yourself. We do not have the staff resources to allow 'Supervised Searches' of the kind you suggested. As explained previously, you will need to use our Family History Research Service'.
Best Wishes, Romilly.
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Oh !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Derek
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Oh !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Derek
Quite... :o
I shall let it lie for now, - but will possibly look into it at some stage in the future.
Best Wishes, Romilly.
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Hello again Romilly
It's been years since we exchanged messages about Southern Grove....I had to leave my research for some time because I was ill....a on the mend now and hope to go to England early next month to visit LMA and hopefully to get some info on Southern Grove....did you ever get any joy from LMA? Do you have any advice for when I visit?
With kind reagrds
Derek
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Hi Derek,
No, I got no further with the LMA:-( They are sticking to the '100 year rule' on opening such records. I was told, (over the phone) that all I would get from viewing the records that they do hold would just be a few dates, i.e date of admittance, etc.
Since my original post I have been able to find much more info on my late Uncle though. I obtained copies of his CS10 forms, (Merchant Navy Service). These gave me the dates of his Service, and when he left. He then spent some time as a Ship's Night Watchman. However, his health deteriorated, and my late Father, (who was a Welfare Officer with the LCC) facilitated his entry to Southern Grove. I have now located where he was Buried.
In view of this, I haven't persued the LMA's paid research option. I doubt that it would tell me anything that I haven't already been able to find out.
Best Wishes with your research,
Romilly.
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Hello again
Thanks for taking the trouble to reply. Things are even worse now..their charge for them to look at the records is now 80 pounds per hr. I had asked them about a particular school record and they replied "An Admission & Discharge Register for girls from Old Montague Street School for 1903 - 1926 is held here. School Records are subject to a period of restricted access in order to protect the confidentiality of living individuals. This follows a recent decision by the Information Commissioner. It is therefore not possible for you to consult the records yourself. However if you are able to provide proof of the death of the individual concerned we are able to undertake the search on your behalf."
This is crazy: I specifically asked about the register for 1911 - well over 100 years ago! And yes! I do have the death certificates - and why the restriction on this specific school when other registers are freely searchable both online and on site.
And how come the confidentiality is respected if a strange archivist looks at the record and not a direct descendant?
Sorry to sound off, but it annoyed me.
Glad that your research seems to going well, good on ya!
Best wishes
Derek
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By the way, I also found the following on Google, just in case you haven't seen it:
http://www.mile-end-residents.co.uk/the-south-grove-workhouse/
Derek
By the way, I also found the following on Google, just in case you haven't seen it:
http://www.mile-end-residents.co.uk/the-south-grove-workhouse/
Derek
Yes thanks I'd seen that one.
Btw, have you found your GreatGrandfather on the various Censuses?
Romilly.
wow, that's terrific... really good to know... thanks so much
Derek
Hello to Romilly and DsandSue,
Hope you will forgive my ignorance, but this is my first time on this website and found by just doing some browsing.
When I was 6 years old in 1948, right after the war, we had nowhere to live. So my mother and three sisters and I were sent to live in Southern Grove Lodge. It was called an institution in those days, however some women sang workhouse songs.
I do recall elderly residents who lived in another area of Southern Grove Lodge because whenever I walked past them, they would want to talk to me, but I was scared of them.
Only women and children (up to age 15) were allowed to live there - in dormitories. Men were not allowed to even enter the building. I recall one morning upon waking up and there was talking about an elderly man had come into our dormitory, opened a window and jumped out, and killed himself.
We went to Guardian Angels School, where the playground was on the roof!
We stayed at Southern Grove Lodge for several months. Mum wanted to move, however we did return to it again in about 1952/3, and we were given a house in Harold Hill, Romford.
I would say about why the LMA will not give out the personal information for you to see because of any living relatives who think it's a stigma. I've always thought that people should never be ashamed of being poor.
I'm 77 now, but remember my childhood and, the strange thing is, we remember more the older we get.
Over the years, I've often searched for Southern Grove Lodge without much success. No doubt, the 'powers that be' want to hide the majority of workhouses.
Kind regards, Morsie x
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Hello Maureen,
And welcome to Rootschat.
I don't know if you followed Derek's Link, (above) but I'll re-post it here, so that you can have a look:
http://www.mile-end-residents.co.uk/the-south-grove-workhouse/
I'm sorry to hear that parts of your childhood were so tough,
- sadly I think things are even worse nowadays:-(
And yes, - you're right, - the older we get, - the more we remember times past!
All Best Wishes, Romilly.