RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Patsy Beech on Saturday 21 January 06 14:57 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
Please can anyone help me? I am looking for the location of the White Hart, High Street, Knaresborough - does it still exist?
The reason behind the request is I am trying to help a friend in Australia with her family tree, and we have found out that in 1861 the family were living and working in the High Street as Druggist & Spirit Merchants only a couple of doors away from the White Hart.
The family were Henry & Elizabeth Paulden, four daughters and one son. The eldest daughter Lucy Ann had married a John Donald Auchterlownie before June 1860 in Great Ouseburn, but less than a year later in 1861 she is a widow. Now I think she may have inherited the wine merchants from her late husband which her father then ran, but that is pure guess work at the moment - and we all know where that can lead!!!!!!!
I was travelling from Scotland to Essex earlier this month and stopped off in Knaresborough for a really good meal, (can recommend the detour from the main road) and took the opportunity to look at the High Street, but not having the details with me could not remember the name of the pub I was looking for - so not much help!!!! I did take a photograph of Threshers Wine Shop because I thought the building looked the right sort of age, but was I way off track?
All help greatly appreciated as when I searched this website for Paulden, Auchterlownie or the White Hart, Knaresborough I came up with a blank each time.
Thank You & Best Wishes, Patsy
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There is a Hannah Auchterlownie & 2 daughters on the 1851 census in the High Street. She is widowed and is a wine and spirit merchant - have you seen that?
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Dear Tricia,
Thanks for the information - no I had not spotted that. Perhaps Hannah was the mother of John Donald Auchterlownie, there can't be many of them in the world never mind Knaresborough!
I am still searching for the White Hart, which I take it must have been an inn or public house, no doubt it will turn up when least expected.
Best Wishes, Patsy
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Would you like the details?
Tricia
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In directories for 1822 AND 1834 the White Hart is recorded as being in Market Place Knaresborough. Today there is Hart's Hotel in Knaresborough which is described as being an old coaching Inn here:
http://www.yorkcamra.free-online.co.uk/Knaresborough.PDF
There is a map showing Market Place in the High Street
If you click on this site there is an Email address for a lady called Alyson Jackson who may be able to help you
http://www.knaresborough.co.uk/history/index.html
Good luck, Tricia
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Hi Patsy
It doesn't ring a bell Patsy and its not in the phone book. I'll make sure on Monday when I take my son to school. I may be able to find out at the library. If I can find which building it is, do you want a photo?
Monique
added-this site suggests the white hart was in the market place and not the high st. It might be worth emailing for further info
http://www.knaresborough.co.uk/history/directories/pigot1834.htm
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Thank you Tricia & mc8,
Yes please I would like the details, and my next job is to search the website for Knaresborough suggested by you both.
When I stopped for a meal in Knaresborough a couple of weeks ago I bought a small booklet called "Knaresborough Town Trail" (very good value at 45p)which mentions the High Street being used regularly as a livestock market until early last century, so perhaps it was a place for the market rather than a Market Place!!!!!
Thank you both for all the time and trouble you are going to on my behalf.
Best Wishes, Patsy
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1851 census
High Street Knaresbro
Hannah Auchterlownie,Head age 59 Widow, Wine and Spirit Merchant, b. Knaresbro, Yorkshire
Mariane Auchterlownie,dau age 30 b.Knaresbro, Yorkshire
Hannah Maria Auchterlownie,dau age 25, Teacher of Music, b. Knaresbro, Yorkshire
Ann Howe,Lodger age 65 Single Annuitant b. Dunsforth, Yorkshire
HO107/2283 Knaresborough Folio 100 Page 5
Tricia
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Also on the 1851 census there is a John Auchterlownie age 22 and unmarried. His birth place is Knaresborough and he is lodging
with William Hobbins and family. William is a Master Chemist and John is a chemist's assistant.
They're living in Dudley Street, Wolverhampton
HO107/2019 Wolverhampton Folio 6 Page 5
Tricia
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Do you have/or would like the Paulden family in 1851??
Tricia
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Dear Tricia,
Thank you, and oooooooooo yes please. All information appreciated.
It is beginning to look as though the Paulden family took over the Auchterlowine business, because with John Auchterlownie training to be a chemist and in 1861 Henry Paulden being a druggist and spirit merchant there seems to be too much of a coincidence for there not to be a link.
I don't suppose the chemist part of business had anything to do with the oldest recorded chemist shop in the market place which is now a tea rooms, and where I had my meal a couple of weeks ago! It really would be strange if I had found the place without knowing!!!!!!
Thank you once again - I feel as though progress is being made with your help.
Patsy
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Incidentally, on the 1861 census the address for the White Hart is Market Place Knaresborough. I think there is an excellent chance that Hart's Hotel in Market Street today and described as an old coaching Inn is the building you are looking for.
Tricia
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In 1861 Maryann Auchterlownie is 41 and still unmarried. Born Knaresborough she is lodging with John Curry and family still in the High Street, Knaresborough. John Curry is a Cordwainer(Shoemaker) Maryann is not recorded as having an occup
HO107/2019 Wolverhampton Folio 6 Page 5
Tricia
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1851 census
No address recorded. Living Kirby Hill Yorkshire
Henry Morton Paulden,Head age 33 Joiner, b.Packport, Cheshire
Elizabeth Paulden,wife age 33, b. Bramley, Yorkshire
Lucy Ann Paulden,dau age 11 b. Bramley, Yorkshire
Mary... ....(?) Paulden,dau age 5, b. Bramley, Yorkshire
Elizabeth F Paulden,dau age 3 b. Bramley, Yorkshire
John W Paulden,son age 1 b. Kirby Hill, Yorkshire
HO107/2281 Ripon Folio 667 Page 21
Tricia
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Interesting, isn't it,that the family business went to an in-law when there was a 41 year old unmarried daughter still in Knaresborough. We will never know why.Perhaps she wasn't up to it.
Doesn't seem to be any other male Auchterlownie's around after John's dearh.
Tricia
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Thank you Tricia,
I have now printed off all the information, and will sit down with a nice glass of chilled stuff to put it all together.
Cheers, Patsy
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Haven't finished yet ;D
Story is coming together now - was a bit worried about the inlaws pinching the business. This is probably what happened - Hannah died in 1858 so the business would go to her son John.
John then married Lucy Ann and promptly died himself. That leaves her in situ with the business as you thought. Poor Maryann :'( Full circle from your 'guesswork'
Hannah Auchterlownie
Death registered Qrt ending June 1858
Knaresborough
Vol 9a
Page 75
Tricia
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John Donald Auchterlownie
Death registered Qrt ending March 1861
Knaresborough
Vol 9a
Page 77
So if anyone wants to see why he died (I reckon Lucy poisoned him to get the business) ;) you can send for this cert online from
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificate/index.asp
Did Lucy re-marry?
Tricia
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Dear Tricia,
Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin.
Yes Lucy Ann did remarry a John Sedgwick Lambert - September quarter 1862 - in Knaresborough. They moved to Tyneside where their son Walter Hibbert Lambert was born in 1868. Walter seems to have spent more time with his grandparents the Paulden's than at home, but compairing Jarrow to Knaresborough you can probably see why!
The Lambert's ran a cafe in Ellison Street, Jarrow in 1871, and by 1881 had moved to the other side of the Tyne to take over the Jerusalem Coffee House, in Clive Street, North Shields, moving back again by 1891.
Walter Lambert grew up to be a Music Hall artist and worked under the professional name of Lydia Dreams. Part of his act was as a ventriloquist and he travelled across to America to perform as well as in the UK. He was obviously very talented because he was also a painter and received a Royal Commision to paint a picture depicting all the musical artists of the period, and this painting called 'Popularity' can be seen at the London Museum today.
Now this is where I fit into the picture because my grandfather was a very good friend of Walter Lambert, so much so that although my grandfather was not a music hall artist he too is in the picture, coming down the stairs of an open top bus. Walter also included his wife and children although none of them have their names on the diagram which tells you who is who in the picture. My father could recall the picture as it was being painted in the 1930's as both families lived in Kenbury Street, Camberwell, and sometimes my Dad and his brother were privileged to a private performance where Walter had a little stage with curtains.
Through the power of the internet I have managed to find one of Walters descendent's who now lives in Australia, and it is for her (and of course myself) that I am trying to discover the family history.
This family searching lark really is time consuming but Oh so interesting, because you never know where it leads, and I have made contact with some really lovely people.
Thank you for all your help, and wishing you continued success in all your searching.
Best Wishes, Patsy
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Thanks for sharing all that. It's nice when they aren't just names on a census sheet. Hope your friend is pleased with all the information - they sound like a good family for 'Who do you think you are' ;D
Lucy's dad landed on his feet - presumably he kept the wine and spirits shop
Good Luck, Tricia
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Hi Tricia,
I don't know what happened next to the wine & spirit shop - I feel more searching coming on!!!!!!!!
Patsy
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Well, as you probably know Henry is still running it in 1871 and little Walter Lambert is staying there.
Aaah,
Tricia
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Hello Patsy,
I have been researching the Lambert family which led me to Australia and Louie Lambert (daughter of Walter Hibbert Lambert) who married Stanley Booley. I wonder if you have any info on the family?
regards,
Sharman
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Hi Sharman,
Yes I do have contact with a descendant of the Lambert family in Australia. Please send a PM and I will see what I can do about putting you in touch with each other.
Patsy
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Hi Patsy,
Thank-you for answering me so quickly. Apparently I can't send a PM until I have sent several posts on RC. Well, this is the second one, so I have 3 to go?
Re the painting Popularity, I thought it was painted 1902-1903? I have been researching the Lambert family and have found it very interesting. Have you any knowledge of the Griffiths family -- Walter Hibbert Lambert's wife's family?
I would love to get in touch with the Lambert descendant.
bye for now,
Sharman
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Hi Sharman,
You will find plenty on this website to comment on so it won't take you long to have several postings.
As for the date of the painting well there by hangs a tale! It was commissioned in the early 1900's, but if you have ever managed to see the original in the London museum the sheer size and complexity of it you will be able to appreciate it took a long time to complete. All those 300 actors, singers, dancer comedians etc are pretty accurate portraits. Also Walter Lambert was known to enjoy a tipple, and it was always known by my Granddad when Walter had been given another advance of his fee! My Dad who was born in 1921 saw the work still in its various stages completion so it must have been nearer 1930 when it was eventually done.
I will contact Jenny in Australia to see how best to put the two of you in touch.
Do enjoy searching through Roots Chat, the help you will find is marvelous.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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Thanks Patsy, I find your posts very interesting. I live in Canada and have not seen 'Popularity' at the London Museum but have seen it online -- it's a beautiful painting. I wonder if Walter Hibbert Lambert did any more paintings or if this one was his life's work? I have seen a couple by his son online, Walter Robert and one was just recently for sale on EBay. Do you know when Walter jr.'s wife, Hilda died, by any chance?
all the best,
Sharman
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Hi Sharman,
Got your PM OK so I will see what I can do. In the meantime the only information I have about the Griffiths family is as follows
Louise Edith Griffiths born quarter ending December 1871, Kensington volume 1a page 31
This should give the name of her father, the reason why I don't know what that is by the time of the 1881 census he had already died.
Ref: RG11/39 Folio 40, page 22, Kensington Town, District 44c
6 Faraday Road, Kensington
Elizabeth Griffiths, Head, widow, aged 30 Vocalist [music] Staffordshire W. Hampton
Louise E. Griffiths, daughter, single, aged 9, scholar, Middlesex, Paddington
Nellie E. Griffiths, daughter, single, aged 7, scholar, Middlesex, Paddington
Emma Smith, sister, single, aged 17 - Staffordshire, W. Hampton
Maria C. Bell, visitor, single, aged 4 - Scotland, Glasgow
I am not sure where W. Hampton, Staffordshire is - anyone out there in "Roots Chat Land" with any ideas? It might help to pin point the marriage between Elizabeth who I am guessing was Smith before her marriage and Mr. Griffiths.
One possibility is William Griffiths married either Elizabeth Smith or Ellen Byfield in the quarter ending March 1867, Dudley, volume 6c page 133, but if he was also a music hall artist, similar to her being a vocalist, then they could have been working anywhere in the country when they met!!!!!
We might have to start a new thread as this has now moved from Yorkshire to Staffordshire!
Hope this is of some help.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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Hi again Sharman,
Forgot to mention that the Booley family are from Suffolk, and I am not absolutely sure but I think they were connected in some way to the church of St. Peter, Ipswich, which unfortunately is now redundant. However if you put a request on the Suffolk board someone may be able to give more help.
Good Luck searching,
Patsy
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Patsy. Cannot offer anything about White Hart. However have the Knaresbro' Parish Churchyard MI recordings from recording of 1973. Also my re-recording/checking of 1985-89, fully indexed. Of tombstones, were one Pauldem, one Paulden, one Auchterlownie. The 1973 landscaping/recording shows 60% with errors. I spent many hours in the churchyard/seeking/ checking etc., and only one of the three above I found. Do you want these three ?
Gragareth.
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Dear Gragareth,
Oh yes please. All information is greatfully received.
I hope you can read this because I am using a friends key board in Italy and they have different symbols!!!!!
Thanks, Patsy
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not sure where W. Hampton, Staffordshire is
I think that is probably Wolverhampton
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I found the story of Walter H Lambert alias Lydia Dreams quite fascinating. Interesting that he travelled under his stage name on at least one of his visits to New York - see manifest of the SS St Louis arrived New York 22 September 1906.
http://www.ellisisland.org/
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Dear ShaunJ,
Thank you for your help, and Wolverhampton sounds so obvious now you have said it.
I have just looked up by information about "Popularity" the oil on canvas by Walter H. Lambert and it gives the sizes which are 13 feet by 5 foot 6 inches. (375.9 x 160cm) Quite some size! No wonder he took a while to paint it, and no doubt was still doing his act at the same time as you say he was off to America in 1906.
The Museum of London published a postcard of the painting a couple of years ago - it might still be available - but to get it onto a postcard they 'trimmed' the edges and in so doing cut off on the left hand side artist number 207, Harry Ford, who just happens to be holding a poster advertising Lydia Dreams as top of the bill! Obviously if you did not know that Walter H. Lambert & Lydia Dreams were one and the same person the message would be lost.
One day when I get out my best glasses and a microscope I will type out the list of names with the corresponding numbers as people out in 'Roots Chat Land' might well have relatives among them, but the writing is tiny and will take a long time.
Thanks again for your help.
Patsy
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Would anyone know who Walter Hibbert Lambert's second wife was? Florence ?? They were together in 1909 and onward.
Thanks for any help,
Sharman
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Replying to Patsy On Popularity Painting
Firstly nice story for your father to tell you but I'm really afraid to tell you it isn't true in the fact he was in the popularity painting that is
It was painted from 1901 and finished by 1903 and Lambert signed it as so in the bottom right corner (see link below)
Now this is where I fit into the picture because my Grate grandfather Peter Cannon (Bella and Bijue) (close Friend to Walter Lambert) and is right In the center of the popularity painting was the owner of this painting in 1903 when it was finished this is stated at the museum of London and on there website where it is placed at the moment and it seems received a Royal Commision to paint This picture isn't true eather I'm afraid
So I guess if your father was born in 1921 and my Graet grandfather died in 1914 even if the date was wrong some how it was finished before 1914 meaning its still imposable he was in it
I Really Am Very Sorry to spoil your fathers story for you but these are the facts
Oh and as of today anyone intrested in seeing the Popularity Painting And the Key in Full on the web its now available And Please no requests to the website for a copy no mater who you are as this will not be granted you can buy prints at the museum of London or on there website
Link To view the popularity painting below enjoy
http://www.arthurlloyd.co.uk/EraObitFiles/mol.htm
Peter Cannon
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hello.
my name is KEN Cross. I am a volunteer at the British Commercial Vehicle Museum in Leyland Lancs. I am trying to get a few facts about Walter Lambert to display on our information boards.
As far as I can make out Leyland Motors Ltd engaged W L to paint a series of portraits, to be copied for calenders. The first one was issued in 1930. The calenders had the slogan 'The Leyland-She's a Lady'. We display a series of these portraits up the demise of Leyland Motors in the Eighties (both original paintings and prints). These calenders became collectors pieces and, visitors to the museum comment on them and enquire about the artist.
I am afraid there are very large gaps in our knowlege about Walter.
So the info I seek is Walter's D.O.B, Date of D.o.d and any info about his wife ( I believe her name was Louise) and children.
So if you can help in any way I would be most grateful.
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Ken, I think you have this information, but in case you don't:
Walter Robert Lambert born 1897 died 1987 commercial artist
He was my grandfather.