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Family History Documents and Artefacts => Family Bibles => Topic started by: Hogan Kit on Saturday 11 February 06 17:01 GMT (UK)
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My aunt has the family Bible with a whole host of potentially useful names. Unfortunately only one stands out, dated 1717. I took photos but can't tweak the faded writing into legibility. From the net, I can't even work out what kind of light it is that would bring it up. I am going to North Wales, where the Bible is, next week, and I if could find out where and how to get it looked at or hire a camera or light or whatever needs to be done, at least it would get done.
Any suggestions, please?
Hogan Kit
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Infra-red isn't part of the visible spectrum. It's otherwise known as heat.
You're probably better off trying Ultra-violet. Taking your own sun-lamp?
You might also consider taking your PC and a good scanner to play with the greyscale levels more.
PB
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Cook the Book, eh?
Okay, Ultraviolet. Thanks. Is it something I can locate / do myself, or do I need to take it to some experts somewhere somehow?
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Cook the Book, eh?
Okay, Ultraviolet. Thanks. Is it something I can locate / do myself, or do I need to take it to some experts somewhere somehow?
You can get UV lightbulbs. Have a look around.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/black-light.htm
One possible site http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/variant_detail.asp?var=3395
PB
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I feel better already! Thanks. I have sent an email to the company in Berkshire. All being well, if they have something that will suit, I can arrange for it to be sent to the address I'll be going to when I arrive in the UK and be able to at least see the writing if not photograph it. It looks as if one should have special goggles for using it.
HK
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Stamp shops sell hand held UV lamps quite cheaply - they may even let you use it in the shop - stamp collectors are nice people ;D
In my old life as a biologist I had to improve contrast on images on high power microscopes I found green and orange light/filters did well.
P ;D
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That's a good tip. Thanks. I will look to see what there is in the Llandudno area. I see there is a Maplins there, and the main site advertises some small handheld UV lamps, battery-operated, quite reasonably, too. I think I would need to take the light there; the Bible is far too big to take on the bus, ha ha. However, if it was a thing that had to be done in a separate location, maybe the family, who live quite a way away, would oblige at their convenience. The old lady couldn't take it anywhere. I'm quite happy to buy at some of the prices (and sizes) I see - I'm travelling light! - Would this be okay to use without goggles? I saw on one of the sites that one should use them with UV light, but maybe that is for a different application than a small handheld lamp?
8) HK
HK
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At last I have worked out (I hope) how to post a picture of the Bible pages for you. The only line that is particularly clear says, in English, Hugh Cadwalad is the true owner of this book.
Hogan Kit.
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Oops, sorry, bit big.
I'll have another go with the natural colours. Previous photo was after I had been trying all sorts to enhance the writing.
This one a bit smaller in size, I trust.
Hogan Kit
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Hi HK,
I have a little hand-held blacklight which is like a miniature fluorescent lamp - it's very handy in my job (paper conservator) but I'm not sure what the wavelength is. You will find that different wavelengths give you different results.
The UV light works because the ink (which is iron gall ink) absorbs the ultraviolet - so the writing goes darker against the paper background. Results depend on the composition of the ink and paper, the amount of ink that's left (yours is very faded) etc etc....there is a very interesting research project going on at the Uni of Northumbria, according to my colleague who is a bit of an expert on iron gall ink. There has just been a big conference over there, the culmination of many years of world-wide research into this ink and its deterioration and preservation.
Northumbria has a school of conservation and they have started using False Colour Infra-Red (FCIR) imaging to enhance iron gall ink writing - e.g. it might make the writing appear red against the paper. This means that even really faded inks will be easier to read. You might like to contact them if your UV method doesn't work! We're pretty sure that they'd love to practice on as many and varied objects as they can get their hands on.
Hope that helps
Cheers
Prue
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I'll see if I can get in touch with them. Plus get an ultraviolet lamp in case I start collecting stamps or conserving paper. And I just love it that the infrared idea wasn't so far off either!
Hogan Kit
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Hi There HK.
I think you should definitely concentrate on your U.V. trials as suggested. Although you must realise that even in forensic photography who would be the main users of this type of photography there is much trial and error. as Prue says different wavelengths,the ambient lighting and different angles will vary the results
As for I.R. firstly black and white infra red which is/was the only I.R. film available over the counter, won't be of any help whatsoever. Prue mentions false colour infra red and yes this is a possibility but only in specialist hands. Briefly false colour (so named because the green component of the film is replaced by blue) uses a special blue filter to alter the wavelength of infra red light, because the light also focuses on a different plane the user has to focus with mathematical tables rather than visually.
Denn
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Yes, I agree. I will likely get a small hand held UV lamp, and see what can be done with that just reading for transcription, and also trialling taking photos with digital camera. I don't think I will be taking my video camera. If it works, fine.
Beyond that, if it doesn't produce legible results, unless some experts take an interest in it for historical or archive purposes, and the family are willing, which is quite likely, I will leave the deciphering to others. Six weeks from now I may be back to let you know the results.
Thanks to all for your input. It was most helpful.
HK
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This message is just in hopes that my profile changes have "taken" - putting my father's pic in. I liked Denn's coloured pic - imagine it was done on editing program.
HK
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The attached document is primarily for Prue, however I have posted it here so that If anyone is interested in false colour infra red photography as use in document conservation, they may read it.
Denn
P.S. Prue the pdf was too large a file so I have copied it as a txt file.
Denn
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Thank you, Denn! Much appreciated! :D
Prue
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Hogan Kit - glad we were of some assistance, I hope you will come back and let us know how you get on.
Cheers :)
Prue
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Hello Hogan Kit - Thank you for giving us a glimpse of the family Bible. Just wonderful to think it has come through the generations and now you will have the chance to see what you can find - with the help of a UV lamp of course ! Would love to hear more later.
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Thanks. I hope I can report that we get the desired result.
Sorry I didn't work out how to post my picture in the left column. It was originally on glass from about 1880. I loved the picture with the hat - it always stumps me to think that people who dressed like that were still around in the fifties with the fashions of that day. My sense of the generations goes all astray, as if they could only live in one fashion world.
Ah well, a few more hours and I'll be on my way. Thanks again.
HK
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Hello Hogan Kit - I know what you mean about the changing fashion scene. I even have a photo of Emma Louisa (Grandma) in trousers - short haircut - it looks to be some kind of a dare.
However, she was very fond of hats her whole life !
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The cousin I shall be staying with part of the time, it turns out, has a video camera with infrared capability, it turns out. OK, this is not false infrared, but I'll try everything. Maybe a mix of FIR and UV will show us the people's faces as well! Fingerp;rints, even.
I tried and tried again to put a photo on the LHS, but will just try uploading it in the ordinary way, just to share.
HK
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Hi Hogan Kit,
If you tried to put the photo above in your profile "as is", then it's no wonder it didn't work
- it's too big ;D
try this one, I've resized it for you. :)
Right-click on the image and look in properties for the address to put in your profile.
See also: Topic: Adding images to Posting & Profiles #2
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
and Topic: Adding images to Posting & Profiles #1
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
Good luck, :)
Bob
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H.K.
I have been a little confused. I was so occupied with the writing that I completely missed the fact that you had two things happening - the writing and the profile pic.
Now that I am "with it" again I realy like that pic and tommorrow I shall attempt a coloured version for you.
Best of luck with the bible,
Denn
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Thanks - that would be stunning to see. I'd be interested in just what method you use - whether you just airbrush colour on to it or change the colour of the actual pixels, if I am expressing it correctly.
I had another couple of goes with the pic, but the button at the bottom didn't seem to do anything. Anyway, nearly time to leave, so I will try again when I come back if it hasn't worked.
HK
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Hello again HK - Just love those faces and expressions.
Thanks for showing it.
Good luck with all your endeavours.
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Good morning,
You're probably still sleeping over there but I shll attempt the pic today.
One question, what is the chap holding on his knee? - looks like a carpenters rule to me.
Denn
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HK,
My colouring skills leave a little to be desired, but here we are anyhow. As to your question about how I do it - I select the different areas and then do a curves adjustment on each while in cmyk mode, some of the smaller areas are brushed in.
I have posted an original sized photo plus a smaller one that should be okay for your profile.
Denn
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Wow! That's fantastic! I had just put that picture in my family history that I am desperately trying to work on before I go - I will now put the coloured one in. It's amazing. I shall try to master it when I get back.
Many thanks for your time and trouble!
HK
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Sleep, Denn? Yes, well, I went to bed at 6.oo am and up again at 9.30, and whether I shall sleep again before I get on the plane who can tell?
My mother told me it was a symbol of his professional status as a master carpenter, but I don't know exactly what it was. I always assumed it was a turned piece, but it looks good as a rule, and I don't know that it wasn't.
Thanks again.
HK
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Okay,
I didn't even know he was a carpenter until now, I imagine a good quality box rule would have been a symbol of a carpenter in those days - even now to some extent. And that certainly looks like one.
I wonder if you may have some of his work still in the families possesion.
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Hi
I have joined this thread rather late but:
Our local archives, (Nottingham), have a special cabinet for reading faded writing which I have always assumed is UV. Maybe the archives near to your Aunts has similar.
My husband was a joiner by trade and apart from special pieces he made he also has both special tools of his own and a collection of very old woodworking tools. So don't just ask about things he may have made, joiners and carpenters got very attached to box planes, chisels etc. and yes Terry has got a boxwood ruler.
Have a good trip.
Jane
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Thank you.
I have just been searching the net to see if I could discover what the regalia for a master carpenter would have been, but so far nothing has emerged.
http://www.robson.org/woodfaq/woodfaq_1.html was quite interesting, but though I wondered about the "jobstick" . . . nothing like an official emblem of his master status. http://parentfrost.netfirms.com/Miersch%20Family%20and%20SS%20Rhein_files/Tischler.htm makes one feel one is almost there, but . . .
One day we might come across a picture or description.
Regards
Rowena
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Hi
Another link is http://www.joinersandceilers.co.uk/index.asp.
Jane
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Hi
Heres a photo of a 1960s boxwood ruler.
Jane
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This is just an interim note to let you know that while I did not have joy with the ultraviolet lamp I got, and anyway my camera had filled up with photos the day before, my cousin was able to get some shots with her camera, which give pretty good views. The back endpapers were not covered in faded writing as I thought, but were just mottled. At this stage, I am wondering whether the writing was to record the change of ownership of the Bible, possibly from its original use as a chained Bible to private ownership, but that's just guesswork based on my interpretation of one word there, sale, which might be misread anyway.
I will attach what I can; I read thus:
Hugh Gadwalad iw gwir berchenog y llifyr (llyfr) hwn 1717.
(gochwyl?) gwilia os gweli ni/roi hynws ymhirach
mwin grasol idi ym groigg dig Dafudd os dygi fi
Morus Jones his hand
and
William Huse his Book 1762
and Sale 1762
Hugh Williams his hand and Book 1762
It's not much more than I had before, but at least I know there is not a great list of ancestors named in faded writing!
Rowena
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A couple more of the pics, which I will try to make smaller than the others turned out
!
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A couple more that someone might be able to decipher better than I!
Robert Williams set his hand 1762
and day the ??
Jan Williams his chifer (cypher???) llifer (Llyfr, book???)
Rbot
Robert Williams
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Another interpretation I tried on the Jan Williams Robert Williams entry was
"For" (with a large fancy F)
instead of "Rbot"
As if Jan Williams was signing for Robert Williams
So reading :
Jan Williams
his chifer
for
Robert Williams
the other highlighted writing I simply can't even make a stab at.
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Oh! And on the Hugh Gadwalad entry, to the left of the arithmetical calculation some previous owner had made of the earliest entry, is some writing I had previously not understood and could only see as a Pound sign - it has suddenly looked to me like Hugh C as if he began to write his name and wasn't satisfied with it, or something. What do you make of it?
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I’m sorry to tell you Hogan Kit that Maplins stopped trading a while back, otherwise that would have been my first port of call. I want to read some ‘hidden’ writing, so I think I’ll try the local museum archives first and failing them a stamp dealer. Good luck with yours
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I’m sorry to tell you Hogan Kit that Maplins stopped trading a while back, otherwise that would have been my first port of call. I want to read some ‘hidden’ writing, so I think I’ll try the local museum archives first and failing them a stamp dealer. Good luck with yours
This is quite an old thread Brewins Girl.
I'm afraid that Hogan Kit has not been logged in to rootschat since 2006. I think Maplins was still trading back then. :) It still is by the looks of it, though online only: https://www.maplin.co.uk/