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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: vandab on Thursday 23 February 06 20:40 GMT (UK)
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Hi . I am trying to find my Great Grandfathers army records. He served in the Seaforth Highlanders in India and was also on The Isle of Wight at the barracks in approx 1885. My grandmother was born in India in 1890 . I know they changed their name but not sure to what. Can anyone advise where i would find the details of his service hopefully on-line, Thanks Vanda ???
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Hi Vanda,welcome to Rootschat, if you post names and what you know, someone may be able to find something.
Kev. ;D
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hi vanda, go online to the national archives, they have records of any medals awarded to them, do you know his number, if not you will have to search with what you know, it will cost you £3.50 to print a copy off. My grandfather was in the seaforths as well in 1914 in france, you havn't said where your gt grandfather was from, mine was from morayshire and i got alot of info from the roll of honour at elgin library.
moira
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You may find this history of the Seaforths particularly interesting. It was rough soldiering right then! http://www.qohldrs.co.uk/html/seaforth_highlanders_full_hist.htm
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Hi, Thanks for the replies. His name was John Lawson and all i really know of him is that he was born born in Scotland. I have contacted The seaforths through their web site but it seems he did not win any medals so they don't have a record for him. I know he was a Quarter Master Sergeant in1884 on the Isle of Wight and a corpl in 1890 in India. I know this through birth certificates. My nan was born in the Murree Hills and he was in the 2nd Bn Regiment, then and i think it says the 1st when he was in the Isle of Wight.By c1887 he was back in Scotland and then to London, Vanda
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Hello Vanda,
After 1881 the Seaforth Highlanders were an amalgamation of the 72nd and 78th Highlanders. The 72nd Highlanders were on the Isle of Wight in 1885 (along with two of my own ggg-uncles), and were back in Scotland by 1887.
Both the 72nd and 78th Highlanders served in the Afghan campaign 1878-1880. I checked the medal roll for both of these regiments and in the 72nd there is a Private John Lawson (though he is listed under the Colour Sergeants). As he's on the roll it means he received the Afghan war medal, but unusually for the 72nd, he received no clasps, nor the bronze star (the 72nd were one of the highest decorated regiments of the Second Afghan War). This may indicate an early exit from the campaign - perhaps due to illness (he's not on the casualty roll). His service number was 58B/22.
I don't believe the 72nd went back to India until after 1900, so it's possible that John Lawson may have changed regiment, probably to the 78th as they were the 2nd Battalion Seaforths (the 72nd were the 1st Battalion).
If you think this is him then perhaps you'd consider contributing his details to the Afghan war database project? You can see more info at www.angloafghanwar.info - and I'll be hapy to help further in any way I can.
All the best -
Garen.
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Hi Garen, You have made my day!!
He was a colour Sergeant when he married in 1881 in Lucknow, He married Alice Maud Brown, Her residence was was also Lucknow, the only other info i have is taken from the 1901 census ie the childrens births which are
Mary b 1885 in IOW, John b 1889 in India, Andrew b 1891 in India, Elizabeth b 1890, Murree Hills, India (my nan ), Robert b Scotland 1887, James and Alexander both born in London I think he must have been a civilian then.
He was a Quarter Master Sergeant with the 1st Searforth Highlanders when in the IOW and a corpl in 1890 with 2nd Bn Reg of Seaforth Highlanders, if that all makes sense.How can i confirm the one you have found is mine? Also do you know where in Scotland he was born.Will willingly put his details on that web site you have given me if it is him. How did you find out these details i have looked but didn't really know where to look.
Best wishes Vanda, Thanks again
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Hi Garen, its me again,were Irishmen also in the Seaforth's? I ask because my other G Grandfather must have served somewhere as John's wife was born in St Helena and she lived in Lucknow, (cant find him either) they had to meet somewhere. Long shot i know
His name was Robert Brown born Ireland
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Hello Vanda - I'm really pleased this has been some help. How can you know this is the right John Lawson? The clearest way will be to see if his service record survives at Kew. I think it is very likely to be the right person...
Let's look at your facts:
John Lawson, Sergeant 1st Battalion Seaforth Highlanders
1881 Lucknow - Colour Sergeant
1885 Isle of Wight
1887 Scotland
1890 Corporal 2nd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders
And match it up with known facts:
The 1st Battalion Seaforth Highlanders were the 72nd Highlanders before 1881
The Afghan war medal roll shows John Lawson, Colour Sergeant 58B/22
no clasps
The 72nd Highlanders were in Lucknow 1880-81
The 72nd Highlanders were in Egypt 1882
The Egypt war medal roll shows Colour Sergeant John Lawson S/128 (some soldiers had new numbers when they became the Seaforths in 1881)
medals: Egypt war medal w/clasp for Tel-el-Kebir and Khedieve's Bronze Star
Carisbrook, Isle of Wight Oct 1882-1885
Edinburgh 1886
Glasgow 1888
I'm fairly sure the 2nd Battalion Seaforths (78th) were in India by 1890 (but I don't know much about them, or that era)
So it looks pretty good. I even think I may have a photo of him (I'll attach it soon, it's bad quality and I'm not sure which one he is).
What's John's date of birth, or approx year from the census and marriage certificate? I have a copy of the Afghan and Egypt war medal roll, so looked him up on there. I also know a bit about the 72nd Highlanders from that time-frame as my two ggg-uncles were sergeants int he 1st Seaforths too - they will have known each other.
Yes, I do believe a fair few Irishmen served in the Seaforths (the 72nd served in Ireland before they went to India, in the 1860s), but there is no Robert Brown on the Afghan war medal roll for the 72nd.
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I've dug out a photo I have a copy of. Sadly it's a very bad photocopy - I hope to get a better copy one of these days as I believe my ggg-uncle Alexander Cameron is also on it. It is of the sergeants in the 72nd Highlanders at Parkhurst Barracks, 1882.
The second pic, closer in, shows the names - just about visible you can see Lawson. According to both the Afghan and Egypt war medal rolls there was only one Lawson in the 72nd, and he was indeed a sergeant. Now, which man is he?
I think he is the man in the front with just one medal ( in which case I think the dots above the names indicate how close they are to the front of the picture). On the Afghan war medal roll, John Lawson was unusual in that he received no clasps and no bronze star for his Afghan war service. He is the only man in this part of the photo with the Afghan war medal, no clasps and no bronze star. His Egypt war medals aren't there because the regiment hadn't received them yet.
Note the crossed rifles on his sleeves, indicating his skill as a marksmen or 'best shot', and possibly denoting training at Hythe Musketry School. Note also that the 72nd Highlanders wore the tartan trews, whereas the 78th wore kilts.
As I said in my previous post, this all adds up to John Lawson (yours) and John Lawson (72nd) being the same man, but some more evidence - service record from Kew, details on family certificates etc. - would seal it for certain.
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Hi Garen,
I cant believe the info you have given me and the photo's, This is the first time i have seen him , (Think i am building my hopes up here)finger's crossed it is him. I have a piece of tartan which came from his kilt, my mum and her two sister's had kilts made up when they were children, from his kilt, it is still as good as new but it has always been kept in a drawer,my mum gave it to me years ago.
His age on the 1901 census is given as 48 so born c 1853, age on marriage certificate given as "full".
Is my next step getting to Kew and trying to find his records? sorry to be a pest but i don't know much about service records. He is the one that has caused me the most problems as i didn't know where to look and getting to London is a bit awkward but will def go there now. My biggest regret is i didn't take much notice when my mum and grandparents were alive some things have stuck in my mind but now i have so many questions i want ask.
Many thanks for your help i really appreciate it, Best wishes,
Vanda
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Vanda - you're not being a pest at all, I'm really pleased if all this info is of use. As you say, fingers crossed.
If you can get to Kew, or get a researcher (or some kind soul) to look on your behalf, then you may be able to find his service record - if it has survived. It may also be worth checking the muster rolls.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/guide/army/soldiers.htm
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=14
His service record will confirm his date and place of enlistment and of discharge, next of kin at time of discharge, and intended place of residence. It will also give his medal entitlements (I expect to see Afghan war, no clasps, and the two Egypt medals with clasp for Tel-el-Kebir). It could also give a reason for his complete lack of clasps in the Afghan campaign - perhaps a medical cause. The 72nd saw action at Peiwar Kotal, Charasia, Kabul, Kandahar and also the march from Kabul to Kandahar, actions from the beginning to the end of the 2 year campaign. His discharge will probably be under the 2nd Battalion (78th) Seaforth Highlanders as it sounds like he transferred.
Him being a sergeant in the 72nd and the medal roll having only one John Lawson in the ranks points to it all looking pretty good. Any more questions, don't hesitate to ask (my speciality is the Afghan war, but my family history is also with the 72nd) and do keep us updated if you are able. I feel confident enough to add him into the Afghan war database, but will keep an eye out for any more info.
None of us took enough notice of parents and grandparents when we could have, did we?! We can try and make up for it now. :)
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Hi Garen! Good to see you again!
I've been watching this thread - how wonderful it is !! :) :) :) :)
I hope that this is the REAL John Lawson .... but I have no doubts !!
Great great job !!
Congratulations vandab !! - for having a great project for Garen !!
Annie :) :) :)
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Garen:
Just wanted to say how great a thing you have done for Vanda. Like Annie, I hope it all works out for you Vanda. And getting his pic too!
My father (Irish) was in Seaforth's during WW2 and was with them at El Alamein where he was wounded. I remember seeing photo of him in kilt and now wish I had gotten copy of it. Ah well, we never appreciated such things then when we were kids. :(
Well done again Garen.
Pat
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Thanks Annie and Pat - I have collected so much info myself in this area that it is great to be able to 'share the knowledge' - much better than keeping it locked away where it's no use to anyone else.
I feel very certain it's the right John Lawson as Vanda's info matches up with what the medal roll offers, and the photo locks in with the lack of clasps on the Afghan medal.
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I've also watched this thread with interest!!
My money would be on him being the right John Lawson as well.Amazing to think that both of your ancestors might have known each other!
Nice one Garen! your website is excellent,keep up the good work.
Mick ;)
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Hi Garen and everyone else who has logged on to this message,
I will check all this out and will certainly let you know the results, I feel i have cilmbed a moutain and without great people like you, that give out help, i would still be looking for years.Cant wait now to prove it, my heart is telling me that it is him so fingers crossed. Best wishes to you all
Vanda ;D
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Hi Garen,
Had a quick look at your web page thought it was really good, very well laid out and full of detail. I live in Worcestershire and we have a couple of women at work that are Boswells, they might be related to you as i think they are from the Boswell family you have,so it is a small world.
Vanda
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Hi Gaven,
Couldn't get to London to check the info you gave me on John Lawson, Seaforth Highlanders, But paid to have him checked out.
I haven't had the report as yet but have spoken to the guy and everything you told me seems to tie in. Just wanted to let you know that it is work in progress because i didn't want you to think i wasn't doing anything.
Will update you further when i get report.
Very many thanks for the help you gave me.
Vanda
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Whoops, so excited i spelt your name wrong, Big sorry
Vanda ;D
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That's excellent news, Vanda - fingers crossed for your researcher turning up some 'gold dust'!
Best -
Garen.
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C for Thighlanders - some of you may remember this:
A for 'orses
| B for mutton
| C for thighlanders
| D for dumb
| E for brick
| F for vescence
| G for police
| H for retirement
| I for Novello
| J for oranges
| K for terrier
| L for leather
| M for sis
| N for a penny
| O for the garden wall
| P for whistle
| Q for a bus
| R for mo
| S for you
| T for two
| U for instance
| V for la France
| W for a bob
| X for breakfast
| Y for husband
| Z for breezes
;)
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Hi Gaven, I am pleased to tell you the info you gave me WAS for my John Lawson. He was born in Brechin, Forfarshire. He had a few naughty moments with drinking. I even know now about another child but think he must have died .This was the best £30 i have spent but without your help i wouldn't have got this far. At least now he can go on the Afghan War Database, will you do that for me and give me a link to so i can have a look. Will you let me know if you need any details off my infomation. Thanks again for your help,
Vanda ;D
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Hi Vanda !
I'm thrilled for you !! and I know Garen will be too !! ;)
You give the rest of us hope !!
Plus you have a photo too ..... doesn't get any better than that !! ;)
Just need his birth certificate now .......... :P
Annie :) :)
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Hi Annie,
I am over the moon, kids think i'm potty, feel very emotional but thats what i'm like cant help it. I have been a bit cheeky and put a message on the Scotland board to see if someone can look up his birth for me, i still have 26 credits on Scotland's people but my time has expired so fingers crossed i might get that info as well.
Cant wait for Gaven to know.The photo was a big bonus
Vanda ;D ;D ;D
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Hello Vanda,
That is such great news, and I feel very pleased I was able to help, but more pleased you have got something substantial from it. I will send you the link to the database in a private message as the project is not public yet. I want to add a few more entries before I unleash it on the world! (I'm up to 365 entries, want to get to 500 before making it public).
If you are able to add any more details about his army service that would be great, eg. date of enrolment, date of discharge... I'm especially intrigued by his lack of clasps from the Afghan war - he got the medal, so obviously served in the campaign, but was he laid low with illness during much the campaign? What dates did he serve?
Many thanks, I appreciate your help.
Best -
Garen.
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Hi Gaven,
Will sort out that info for you but it will take a couple of days as i have to go back to work next week :( and some of the writing is hard to understand, but it is in very good condition also i need to put in order. Will be in touch soon,
Vanda
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What a fascinating read - I'm chuffed to bits for you, nice one! :)
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garen,everything matches up,i think you are spot on,thats a great piece of research,well done,mack
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Good stuff all round!
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Hi everyone,
Just thought i would update on my infomation.
Thanks to Garen i found my G Grandfather's military history. I then found his place of birth and now have also gone on to find his parents and both sets of his grandparents. I also know all his brother's and sister's.
I am now one very happy lady. Thank you all,
Vanda
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Hi Garen and others
Thank you for your correspondence. I was searching for a Sgt David Menzies, who according to the 1881 Census was in the 72nd Seaforth Highlanders and at Fort George. As he remained in the army until his death in 1906, he may likewise be in this photo of sergeants.
I have sent a private message. I would like to now if his name appears below the photo, and how to get a copy "quickly" as we have a reunion 30 March 2013 in Australia.
Keith
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Hello Keith
Thanks for your query. I'm afraid that the name Menzies does not appear on the picture of the 72nd sergeants. The photo was taken at Parkhurst in 1882 - the 72nd had only just returned from Egypt, arriving in Portsmouth at the end of October and the start of November in that year. If David was at Fort George in 1881 then it seems he was not placed with the service battalion at that time.
Are you certain he was with the 72nd? There is a service record (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/army-service-records-result.action?sdrfnbr=973458061) for a David Menzies, born about 1845/46 who was a Colour Sergeant in the 71st Foot in 1881 - he transferred to the Highland Light Infantry in July. His father was Robert Menzies and he married a Mary Blaney in 1886.
Best wishes - Garen
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Thank you Garen
Yes, that is him. His father was Robert Menzies of Kerrowmore, Innerwick, Glen Lyon.
I will look at your reply to get the service record.
Regards,
Keith
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Hi Garen
I checked the 1881 Census and it said that David Menzies was the Colour Sergeant 55 B.D. at Fort George. It sounds like B.D. stands for Brigade Depot.
Then, I just found this:
In April 1873 under the "Linked Regiments Depot System" the 78th Highlanders were linked with the 71st Highland Light Infantry at 55 Brigade Depot, Fort George.
In 1881 it was amalgamated with 72nd Highlanders forming the 2nd Battalion of The Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Buffs).
I have asked another who has membership with your link Findmypast to see what they can find for me on his record.
Of all my research into our Menzies Clan, he is the first that I will be able to chase military records for.
It was written that '"Old Culdares" (Sir James Menzies the 4th. of Culdares & Meggernie who did not participate at Culloden) gave the Innerwick Inn and tenant farm to clan for services as the piper to his officer son'. His officer son would have been Archibald Menzies the 5th. of Culdares, and my ancestor was Archibald Menzies who married in 1761 and took over the inn. Therefore was his father the piper or was my ancestor the illegit of Archibald Menzies the 5th. The Innerwick Inn, on the Culdares Estate stayed in our Menzies family off and on until 1925. My Archibald Menzies was the grandfather of this David Menzies. Maybe he continued in the military as we have never found his death in Glen Lyon. We are holding a Menzies Clan Ceilidh and reunion in Aus next month, so I was just trying to cover as many of the relatives as I can.
regards,
Keith (Australia)
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Hi All
I have been following the posts on the Seaforth Highlanders and the activity in North West Frontier. It has been most interesting to see how pieces of the jigsaw all come together to provide a clear picture of the person. On the death of a relative our family has come across a medal issued in 1908 for Indian General Service medal 1908 with North West Frontier on clasp. It was issued to a D McKay. Since we are Mackays (varied spelling) we suspect it is from a relative but who? Donald would be most likely however we are unsure. the number associated with it is 8851. Which are the best sites to get more info about this soldier. He served with the 1st Battalion Seaforth Highlanders.
Any help appreciated. Thanks