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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: Abby on Sunday 16 July 06 06:38 BST (UK)
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My g. grandfather, Richard William Jones was born Sept 1846 in Much Wenlock, supposedly the first of 8 children to John and Margaret Jones.
He came to New Zealand around 1872. As yet I haven't been able to find him on any passenger lists - he was an engineer so he may have worked his passage? He married my g. grandmother, Elizabeth Green in New Zealand in 1874. I have obtained a copy of their marriage certificate and find that he was married before, as he is listed as a widower. I thought I had found the right one online and sent away for that marriage cert., but it is wrong, so I now have surplus one for R.W. Jones and Sophia Williams if it is of use to anyone.
My question main question is - where do I go now to find who he may have married? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Abby
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Hi Abby and welcome to Rootschat :)
Have you found Richard on the 1871 census? His first wife may still be alive, which will narrow down the search.
Prue
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Thank you Prue - I will try that,
Abby
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Here he is in 1851:
HO107/1990 folio 13 page 17 - Harley, Shropshire
John Jones Head Marr 26 Ag Lab born Berrington Montgomeryshire
Margaret Jones Wife 26 Marr Domestic Duties born Llanfair Montogmeryshire
Richard Jones Son 4 born Wenlock Salop
Margaret Jones Dau (age looks like 0?) born Broseley Salop
Jan
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In 1861 I can see a 14 year old Richard, Farm Servant in the village of Cressage, working for John and Elizabeth Edwards.
RG9/1861 folio 21 page 12 - Cressage Farm
Cressage is approximately 3 miles from Much Wenlock so could be a possibiliy.
Here's the rest of the family in 1861:
RG9/1861 folio 11 page 16 - Cressage Park Cottages, Harley, Shropshire
John Jones Head Marr 36 Drainer born Montgomeryshire Buttington
Margaret Jones Wife Marr 36 born Montgomeryshire Llanfair
Mary Ann Jones Dau 12 Scholar born Salop Broseley
Jane Jones Dau 8 Scholar born Salop Harley
Edward Jones Son 6 born Salop Harley
John Jones Son 1 born Salop Harley
Stephen Emery Lodger Unm 37 Drainer born Somersetshire Farnbrough
Jan
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How are you getting on with the 1871 search?
Jan
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Dear, Dear Jan,
I hope you heard my kiwi yahoos from where you are!! This is so exciting - when you ask how I'm getting on with the 1871 search, I have to confess to no action as I'm home with the flu and expected I would have to head into my library to check that out...
As you will have guessed, I am new to this site and so much value your help.
A picture is starting to emerge!
Thanks again,
Abby
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Hi Abby! :) Jan has got you started with the census, so here is 1871. There are three Richard Joneses from Much Wenlock, but only one with the right age:
Richard JONES Married 25 Gardener Much Wenlock
He is a lodger in the house of William DAVIES, 7 Armory Tce, Shrewsbury, Shropshire. Not sure where his wife is, though. And here I was, thinking they'd be together! Of course I could have the wrong Richard Jones...
Hope your flu goes away soon - I was off with it last week :-\
Prue
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Should have said, the William DAVIES he is lodging with has a birthplace of Montgomery[shire], Kerry - long shot, but possible connection to Richard's parents who are from the same county?
Prue
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Rest of family, 1871:
RG10/2740/43/17
Marlbrook Toll Gate, Aston Eyre, Shropshire
JONES
John Head Mar 46 Drainer Montgomeryshire, Buttington
Margaret Wife Mar 46 Montgomeryshire, Llanfair
John Son 11 Scholar Salop, Harley
James Son 9 Scholar Salop, Harley
George Son 7 Scholar Salop, Harley
Edward Fox Grandson 1 Worcestershire, Oldbury
Ann Granddaughter 3 months Salop, Ailey (?)
The reference for Richard's 1871 entry is:
RG10/2775/43/20
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Thank you Prue - I was trying not to sound too 'new'!!!
With all the info you have provided, I have some thinking to do. This is definitely his family. How could I find out who the parents are of the two grandchildren? Would this be on the IGI?
I had imagined Richard would be involved in some sort of engineering as he moved into it as soon as he got to NZ...
Thanks a million,
Abby
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Hi Abby,
Don't worry about sounding new, we all have to start somewhere! And even when you've been doing it for a while, you can still sound like a dill sometimes ;D ;D ;D
You can check the IGI for the two grandchildren, or, as you know pretty much when they were born, you could check the birth indexes. Do you know freebmd and Ancestry.co.uk?
I just had a quick check on Freebmd and found Edward Fox Jones, registered March quarter 1870, district West Bromwich, Vol 6b page 732. Hooray! You might have a harder time finding Ann as I am not sure of the birthplace on the census - but you can check the 1881 census yourself for free, and see if she is on that.
If you order Edward's birth cert, you will get his parents' names.
Prue
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Goodness me Prue, you have been a busy bee!!!!!! ;D
I had found the Richard in Armoury Terrace as a possibility,but did you see the Richard Jones born Wenlock, living in Lancashire? RG10/4245 folio 88 page 57. Probably not right, but thought it worthing mentioning anyway :)
I also had another look at that place name 'Ailey'. There isn't one in Shropshire but there is in Herefordshire/Worcestershire. The Salop bit must have been enumerator's error :D.
Here's a map: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0nf/
Jan
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Hi Jan,
I had another look at the mysterious "Ailey" - that's definitely what it says - but I then went to 1881 and looked for the grandchildren, and they are still with their grandparents (although grandad is not home). Ann is down as born in Harley! Why the 1871 enumerator wrote Harley for others and not for her, I don't know.
I did see the Richard in Lancashire, but as he was married with two children I thought it was probably not him. Right age, though.
Prue
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Hi Prue and Jan,
Richard was definitely in NZ by 1873, probably 1872 and even possibly 1871 - still not sure but will keep digging from this end in NZ. On marriage certificate he lists as 27, widower, engineer. Family have passed down that he did his engineering training in England, so if this was the case - where would he have done that? Would he have needed to go to a larger town?
I have been studying my map of Shropshire and following the family's progress. My g.g. grandparents John and Margaret are becoming 'real' now.
You have been so generous with your interest and information - so many thanks,
Abby
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Hi Abby
Here's Richard's parents (and two other family members :)) in 1891:
RG12/2093 folio 31 page 6 - Alderham Pools, Morville, Bridgnorth, Shropshire
John Jones Head Marr 66 Master Drainer born Montgomeryshire Buttington
Margaret Jones Wife Marr 65 born Montgomeryshire Llanfair
Robert Jones Brother Single 55 Estate Labourer born Montgomeryshire Llanfair
Mary Ann Wrigley Dau Widow 42 Monthly Nurse born Salop Broseley
Jan
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The brother Robert was probably a brother of Margaret's as they share birthplace and Margaret was a Jones before she married as well as after! Just to confuse us!
Interesting information on Mary Ann - married name, career (monthly nurse?).
I'm wondering if Richard could have been with Jane and her husband Mr Wrigley in 1871?
The trouble is - the more I find out the more I want to know! Is this a common affliction?
The flu 'fog' is lifting slowly,
Abby
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The trouble is - the more I find out the more I want to know! Is this a common affliction?
Extremely common, and one of the symptoms experienced by all Rootschat members ;D
I thought I would have another look for Mary Ann Wrigley and this is what I found:
1881
RG11/3918 folio 117 page 36
27 Lister Street (Woodstock Inn), Chorlton on Medlock, Lancashire
Ben Wrigley Head Marr 35 Bees House Keeper born Lancashire Salford
Mary A Wrigley Wife Marr 32 born Shropshire Broseley
??? ???
Free BMD has a marriage for a Ben Wrigley & Mary Ann Jones March Quarter 1881, Vol 8C, Page 661, District: Chorlton, but would Mary have married outside of her birth county??? Mmmm...not sure about that!
Jan
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I have checked the 1871 for Mary Ann, and can't find her as Wrigley but this is a possiblity:
RG10/2761 folio 50 page 13 - Farm House, Cressage
Mary Ann Jones Servant 28 Unmarr General Servant born Shropshire Broseley
She is working for a Farmer John Edwards Widow 60, and his family.
Jan
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Hi Jan,
The marriage may have been possible, but not sure. If she was a nurse, she may well have done a lot of travelling....
I think I will send for the Edward Fox Jones birth certificate and see where that leads me. I found g.g.grandfather John on the 81 census, in Yorkshire, with a group on 'drainer' work and may well have found a brother of his as well! This is awesome.
Jones was my maiden name, so a 'special' interest!
Abby
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I have ordered Edward Fox's birth certificate and I wait!
I placed a post on the Warwickshire section looking for the family of Elizabeth Green, (Richard William Jones married her in NZ in 1874), but have had no reply to a request for info on 1871 census. The person helping there said she was in Shropshire in 1971, but I was hoping that it might help to find Richard. I was unsure if I had over-stepped the mark - please let me know if this is the case.
I have found some information in old NZ newspapers to indicate Richard probably sailed out of London 10th Oct 1872 on the 'Zealandia' - still working on this - needs confirmation.
Thanks again,
Abby
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Hi Abby :D
Make sure you let us know what Edward Fox Jones's birth cert says!! (I have had no reason to order certificates of my own for a while, so I get my thrills from others now ;D )
What are the details of Elizabeth Green's family - I'll see if I can find them.
Cheers
Prue
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Hello Prue,
I didn't know any details of Elizabeth Green's family, but her death certificate says she was born Wormleighton, Warwickshire and she was 71 when she died in 1915 in Hastings, New Zealand. I had been told that Richard had met Elizabeth before he left England and if she was in fact in Shropshire in 1871, he may have been nearby? It might even shed some light on his mysterious earlier marriage??
Elizabeth came to NZ by herself in 1873 to marry Richard - brave girl!!
I certainly will let you know details of the birth cert as soon as it arrives
Thanks Prue,
Abby
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Have received Edward Fox's birth certificate and I'm in shock! Father - Richard Jones, gardener! So, Richard left them (I'm assuming baby Ann is their's also) with his parents and came to NZ?? Seems really strange - there must be an explanation.
Mother - Mary Woodall, from Popes Lane, Tal (?) Bank, Oldbury. I found what is probably their marriage record at BDM, so will order that soon to check, but when it comes to finding the right death details for Mary Jones - well, there seem to be a vast number of them within the likely dates!!! Probably just prior to 1871 census as the children were with their grandparents then and the baby was only 3 months old.
It now seems most likely that Richard left London 10 Oct 1872, as this ties in with all the information family have given me.
Thanks so much for your interest and help,
Abby
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Hi Abby,
Wow, that's great! :) Not that he left the wife and kids, but that you have confirmed that bit of the story.
If we can be of more help, just holler :D
Prue
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Thanks Prue,
His NZ marriage certificate showed him as widower, so Mary must have died prior to 1871 census, but with so many Mary Jones deaths I am not at all sure how to find the right one - any suggestions for how to whittle them down would be appreciated. (May have died in childbirth with Ann?? but only guessing of course)
I feel as though I need to make excuses for him leaving ONLY the children!!
But it doesn't really add up with what I know of his life in NZ - I guess he made a 'new' life! It is such an interesting jigsaw.
Thanks again,
Marion
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Hi
I've missed the rest of the replies to this thread, but they have made very interesting reading. As Prue said, it's great that you have been able to confirm the story about Richard.
Let us know what the marriage certificate shows.
Jan
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Hi Jan - thanks for your interest - I'm still waiting for the certificate which should arrive before the end of the month. Hopefully it will confirm whether or not we have the right Richard Jones.
Thanks again,
Abby
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Hi Prue and Jan,
The certificate arrived today! I have Richard Jones, 23, Bachelor, Gardener, Residence at time - Condover, Father - John Jones, Labourer.
Mary Woodall, 28, Sinster, servant, (looks like) Ryton View?, Father - John Woodall, Shoemaker. Everything seems to add up doesn't it!
They were married in the Parish Church, Condover, Shropshire (after Banns). Their witnesses were Henry and Ann Bason.
Prue - you mentioned you might look for Elizabeth Green (Richard's 2nd wife) in Shropshire in the 1871 census. Her birthplace was Wormleighton, Warwickshire and I would really love to know if you found anything. Sorry to ask for more after all you have done!!!
A million thanks to you both!!
Abby
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Hi Abby,
Great news about your certificate!!! How exciting!
I did promise to look for Elizabeth, didn't I - sorry I forgot about it.
I had a look at the 1871 just now and found the following, do you think it might be her?
RG10/2806/120/40
Back (?) Street, Wellington, Shropshire
Elizabeth GREEN Serv Unm 28 Housemaid Wormleighton, Warwickshire
...in the household of John RIDER, General Practitioner.
I haven't looked for Richard yet, but I will now.
Prue
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D'oh! Just reading back through the thread and realised I had already looked for Richard! Don't know how close Wellington and Shrewsbury are...
Prue
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Thanks heaps Prue,
I think it must be her - her age seems to vary a bit here and there, but only by a couple of years.
By my atlas, Wellington is North West of Telford, possibly 10 miles from Shrewsbury. Wow, what a ride you have given me!!
If you need any searching in NZ I can try to help!
Thanks again,
Abby
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;D
You're very welcome Abby :)
I will call on you if I need any trans-Tasman research doing ;) :)
Prue
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I missed the last few posts of this thread, I'm not getting email notifications ???
Anyway, great news about the marriage certificate :D
You will have to give us a shout if you need anything else checking ;)