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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: utrecht003 on Saturday 30 October 04 21:33 BST (UK)
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hullo all could anyone help please, I've come to a dead end. William Mcpherson married a Christine Grant. I just can't find any reference to their marriage, except on the sons birth cert. He was John Grant Mcpherson married to Mary Mcnicol Bruce,Sept 17 1842 in Brechin.John was born May 19 1840.
William, the Father was born abt.1812,Kirkmichael, Banff, in 1870 he was a "house proprietor ?"
Christine the Mother, doesn't seem to excist at all, outside a certificate does any one have any thoughts that may help alex.
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Hi Alex
I have Mcphersons as well from Kirkmichael do you know of these
John Mcpherson son of James Mcpherson,Jane Shaw
there son john married Mary Gilbert Potter in Edinburgh in 1888
let me know if you have come across these only just started looking on these lines so dont have alot of info.
Fifer :)
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Alex,
This is a long shot but my ggggrandfather, James Forsyth was b. 1785 in Aberdeenshire (next door to Banff) and his parents were WILLIAM Forsyth & Ann McPHERSON.
After years of research I've noted repeated intermarriage of the same families is generally followed by the use of the in-laws common given names.
Also, the above noted James had a grandson named John GRANT Forsyth but I've never found the GRANT connection. I know - it's reaching a little but an interesting co-incidence. Good luck!
Jack
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I see that John McPherson and Mary McNicol Bruce were married in 1868. If you have a copy of the birth certificate, it will tell you whether Christian/na/ne was still alive then or not. If she was, you can work forward to find her death certificate (she will be indexed under both surnames, but don't forget spelling variations). If she was dead, you can work backwards, hoping that she survived until 1855. Certificates can be viewed online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk.
Have you got the 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871 census entries? Where was William in 1870 and where did this information come from?
What denomintaion was the marriage ceremony? Could they have been Roman Catholics?
Forfarian
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many thanks for your reply Forfarian,sadly I'm helping my sis.in law to arrange a funeral for her brother Norman Grant Mcpherson,but next week I will take your advice and look further once again many thanks. alex
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Hi Alex,
I have the family in the 1841c
It seems they did not marry.
I can't find any other children.
When you refer to the certificate you have, is it the marriage of John to Mary in 1868, if so, then what did it exactly word for word, did it say about his parents.
1841 Census
3 Records found
: Aberlour-Banffshire 4
Civil Parish: Aberlour Address: Mill
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Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
MCPHERSON William M 30 Ag Labourer Banffshire
GRANT Christine F 35 Banffshire
MCPHERSON John M 1 Banffshire
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regards
kenjo ;)
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Hullo Kenjo, many thanks for your reply.What I have is the original Banns for John Mcpherson(BurghPolice Officer)and Mary Mcnicol Bruce (daughter of John Bruce Inn Keeper) They were Married in Brechin 14 September 1868.
I couldn't find any thing on "scotlands people"But on the IGI I got a copy of their marriage, giving the parents of John as William Mcpherson and Christina Mcpherson, M Name Grant.Everything seems to tie up,Job,Age,names etc I just can't past William or Christina. though at least I now have an age for Christina. Once again thanks for you help,any other thoughts though will be most appreciated Alex
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Hi Alex,
firstly I must apologize, William McPherson and Christina Grant, may have married, in an old tradition, and that 1841c saying her name as Grant, doesn't necessarily mean that they weren't married. She may just be using her Maiden name.
I bought the Marriage certificate, to see the parents.
and it was as you said, it appears they were still alive, [mind you, that is not always the case]
I[think] I have found the Death of
Christina McPherson, married to
William McPherson formerly a Labourer,
died on the 23 April 1870, at 5am,
Dufftown, Mortlach, Banff.
she was aged 69yrs.
her father was John Grant, Farmer, deceased,
and her mother was Jane Grant ,maiden surname, Campbell. deceased.
she died of Influenza, Bronchitis, and pneumonia,
Informant was her husband William McPherson.
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These are the children of
Father: John Grant, Mother: Jane Campbell, [sadly there isn't a match for Christina Grant, maybe she was illegitimate and raised as John's own] or there are a few explainations.
CHARLES GRANT -
Gender: Male Christening: 16 APR 1805 Knockando, Moray, Scotland
JAMES GRANT -
Gender: Male Christening: 19 MAR 1807 Knockando, Moray, Scotland
ALEXANDER GRANT -
Gender: Male Christening: 10 JUN 1809 Aberlour, Banff, Scotland
DONALD GRANT -
Gender: Male Christening: 11 APR 1812 Aberlour, Banff, Scotland
JOHN GRANT -
Gender: Male Christening: 20 OCT 1814 Aberlour, Banff, Scotland
ISABELLA GRANT -
Gender: Female Christening: 04 JUL 1818 Aberlour, Banff, Scotland
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In the 1881 census Dwelling: 22 Church St
Census Place: Mortlach, Banff, Scotland
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
William MC PHERSON W 69 M Kirkmichael, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Pauper
Jane MC PHERSON U 38 F Mortlach, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Gen Servant Domestic
~~~~~~~~--
I have the Death of William McPherson, Pauper, widower of Christina Grant.
he died sixteenth/11/1893, at 4am, of Bronchitis, aged 82 yrs, living at 22 Church street, Dufftown.
father, John McPherson, Farmer, deceased.
mother, Annie McPHerson, maiden surname, Stewart, deceased.
Informant, son, William McPherson, living at Fife Mills Dufftown...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the son.....in the 1881c
Dwelling: Fife Mills Cottage
Mortlach, Banff, Scotland
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Isabella THOMSON U 65 F Mortlach, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Merchant
James THOMSON U 55 M Mortlach, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Brother
Occ: Shoemaker
Margaret NICHOLSON W 42 F Mortlach, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Sister
Occ: Dressmaker
Catherine NICHOLSON U 15 F Mortlach, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Neice
Occ: Domestic Servt
Elsie THOMSON 10 F Mortlach, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Neice
Occ: Scholar
William MC PHERSON U 26 M Mortlach, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Boarder
Occ: Spinner
~~~~~~~~
I feel this william is fibing about his age..
Christina his mum, was having her children in her 40s, we now have John , Jane and William....
but I can't find anything about these other children.... maybe they weren't Christened.
regards
kenjo :D
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I noticed that the death certificate described William mcPherson as a pauper. I happened to be in Elgin the other day, so I had a look at the Mortlach Parish Board records.
Applications for relief, 1857-1879, No 79. Date of application 1864, February 5. William McPherson, residence Dufftown, born Scotland, married, 53, labourer, wife Christina Grant, 60. Inspector visited on February 5th, 1864. Applicant is unable to work as per medical certificate; wholly disabled [this means disabled from earning, not necessarily suffering from a physical handicap BTW]. Admitted [to Register of Poor] April 16.
Ibid, No 193. Date of application 1 December 1871. William McPherson, Church Street, Dufftown, widower, 61, labourer. Inspector visited 1 December 1871. Wholly disabled; dependants Jane McPherson, daughter, aged abt 28, imbecile.
Register of Poor, No 83. William McPherson, Dufftown, 54. Admitted 16th April 1864 at 12/- per week. Born Kirkmichael, protestant, married, labourer, partially disabled, ruptured, partially destitute, no earnings. Settlement: residence. Wife Christian Grant, 61. Dewpendants living in household: Jane mcPherson, 23. Children not living in household: John McPherson, 25; James McPherson, 20.
6th February 1872. James McPherson dead. John married, residence unknown. Jane weak-minded. Christina dead.
1867, November 1st Succeeded to money sufficient to maintain him.
6 February 1872: Readmitted on roll at 10/- per week.
Nov 14 Allowance increased to 11/-
1874 Feb 3 Allowance increased to 12/6
1883 Ap 21st Allowance increased 3/6 per week
1893 Ap 15th Allowance increased 5/- per week.
1893 Nov 16th Died
If you want copies of the originals of these three items, go to http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp and then to Moray Council's Online Shop.
HTH
Forfarian
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PS: re the 1841 Census entry and Christian/na/ne's surname.
In Scots Law a woman's legal surname does not change on marriage. It is merely a convention (probably imported from England) that she is known by her husband's surname. This is why in legal documents Mary Smith married to John Bloggs will be described as 'Mary Smith or Bloggs'. It is also why mothers' surnames generally appear in Scottish baptism entries, unlike England wher you usually get only the mother's given name.
It is quite common for wives to be listed in the census, especially in the earlier ones, under her own surname. It does not mean that she was not married!
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Foveran,
Thankyou, for correcting me, on the true way things are, in Scotland. re Marriages.
What great detective work, with the Poor lists, It is strange that William the informant, on his fathers death, isn't mentioned as a son, in the Poor list ???
I wonder why?
Kenjo
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Yes, I was surprised to see that too. Normally all the children are listed, and the Inspector must have known about William because he was still alive and living locally, according to the death certificate and census.
Most odd.
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Hi there my name is AARON GARDNER and currently doing my family tree when i came across this post:
Alex,
This is a long shot but my ggggrandfather, James Forsyth was b. 1785 in Aberdeenshire (next door to Banff) and his parents were WILLIAM Forsyth & Ann McPHERSON.
After years of research I've noted repeated intermarriage of the same families is generally followed by the use of the in-laws common given names.
Also, the above noted James had a grandson named John GRANT Forsyth but I've never found the GRANT connection. I know - it's reaching a little but an interesting co-incidence. Good luck!
Jack
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Please may you tell me WILLIAM FORSYTH's Parents
MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS
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I'm trying to find out information about a Helen McPherson Grant from Banffshire who married a Charles Nicol from Moreyshire Their address was Ballandollach P.O. Scotland and I think they were married on 7/14/1862. Charles was born in 1834. They immigrated to Port Dover, Canada.
Helen's parents were Robt or James Grant & Margaret Smith. I can't figure out where the McPherson name came from. Anyone with information on Helen or parents would be appreciated.
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Hi Gorander
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Have you viewed Helen's marriage cert? I ask because I am not sure whether Helen's parents were married at the time of her birth. This can often be indicated by the way the marriage details are written up regarding parents. For example if mother shows as Margaret Smith, not Margaret Grant, maiden name Smith.
There is this possible entry in 1841:
George Smith 60, farmer
Helen Smith 60
John Smith 25
Margaret Smith 25
Helen Grant 4
George Ross 10
Alexander Finlay 25
Address: Bolnapiats, Inveraron, Banff
In 1851, Margaret Smith shows as unmarried. Have a look at the household entry on http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl. If you search for a Margaret Smith, age 39 in Inveraron. Possible entries for a Helen Grant working away from home that year that could fit.
In 1861, there is this entry:
George Smith 84, Farmer Of 25 1/2 Acres
John Smith 53, son
William Smith 51, son
Margaret Smith 55, daughter
Hellen Grant 25, granddaughter, teacher b. Inveraron
Christian Smith 34, niece
George McPherson 15, nephew
Address: Bolnapiat, Inveraron, Banff
Monica
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Address: Bolnapiats, Inveraron, Banff
This is in the parish of Inveravon not Inveraron.
It's marked as Bolnapiat on the modern 1:25,000 map but almost certainly abandoned and ruinous. The National Grid reference is NJ224327. You can see where it is by going to http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/271103 and then clicking on OS Get-a-Map at the bottom of the page. It's not the cottage in the picture, but it probably is or was very similar.
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Forfarian, as always you are brilliant on place names and you are absolutely right on it being Inveravon. I obviously had Inveraron stuck in my head this morning and wrote it up that way on each instance when I was typing up :P
Monica
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Thanks for the help. Maybe that's the family. All I have is a family tree on canvas that dates back to Helen McPherson Grant which indicates she's a single child. No info on birthdate, just parent's names. She married Charles Nicol in 1862 and they have the Ballandolloch PO as their address. How do I find birth, marriage and death certificates?
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Have a look through this help guide here on RC on what is available in respect of Scottish research resources: www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.0.html
You will find the original image on line of Helen and Charles' marriage on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk It is pay to view but costs are reasonable. You can save any image that you view on to your computer.
The marriage year shows as you have, from IGI at www.familysearch.org:
HELEN MCPHERSON GRANT and CHARLES NICOL
Marriage: 14 JUL 1862 in Inveravon, Banff
You should be able to view this entry on Scotlands People with these dates.
Monica
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Certainly looks like Charles and Helen left Scotland immediately after their marriage going by the births places of their early children. The family in 1871 at Woodhouse, Norfolk South, Ontario - all the children showing as born in Ontario:
Charles Nicol 36 b. Scotland
Helen Nicol 35 b. Scotland
Margret Nicol 7
Marey H Nicol 6
Eliza J Nicol 5
Erie E Nicol 3
From 1891 in St Albans Ward, York West, Ontario
Charles Nicol 57 b. Scotland
Helen Nicol 55 b. Scotland
Maggie Nicol 28, P. School teacher
Lizzie Nicol 25
Erie Nicol 22
Mina Nicol 18, P. School teacher
Bella Nicol 16
Emily Nicol 15
Georgie Nicol 12
Monica
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Some of the childrens' birth entries in Ontario which coincide with the start of official registration in Canada:
Martha Elsie Nicolson Nicol - 20 Sep 1869
Williamina Craigie Nicol - 30 Nov 1872
Isabella Elsie Nicol - 17 Sep 1874
Emily Naomi Nicol - 31 Jan 1876
Georgie Larisa Nicol -19 Aug 1878
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Helen Grant/Nicols died in York, a widow by now,on 27 Mar 1921 at the age of 85, the informant was one of her daughters. Her birth place shows as Banff and parents given as Robert Grant and Margaret Smith. Charles Nicol died also in York on 1 Oct 1898, aged 64.
Monica
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Thanks for the help. Maybe that's the family. All I have is a family tree on canvas that dates back to Helen McPherson Grant which indicates she's a single child. No info on birthdate, just parent's names. She married Charles Nicol in 1862 and they have the Ballandolloch PO as their address. How do I find birth, marriage and death certificates?
You won't find a birth certificate because no such thing existed before 1855. There might have been a baptism record, but if there isn't one listed at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk the chances are that it has not survived. It isn't listed on http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp which means that it's not in the Inveravon Roman Catholic registers either.
There will be a marriage certificate available at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk at modest cost. The marriage certificate should tell you the names of both her parents, and her father's occupation may be listed.
If the Inveravon Kirk Session minutes have survived, there might possibly be some information there about Helen's parentage, provided that one of her parents was a member of the Church of Scotland congregation. The minutes would be in the National Archives of Scotland www.nas.gov.uk but you would need to get someone to check on your behalf. The NAS site has links to lists of Edinburgh-based researchers who do this sort of thing.
Ballindalloch Castle is the seat of the Macpherson-Grant family, descendants of the original lairds who built the castle. The double-barrelled name dates from 1806, when George Macpherson succeeded his great-uncle General James Grant, and took both names. It would not surprise me if Helen Grant acquired her middle name some time after her baptism; this isn't at all unusual. Quite a few Grant children from that area were given the middle name Macpherson as a mark of respect to the laird's family.
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The only entry I could find on IGI was this one, actual extract from the Old Parish Registers:
JANE GRANT OR SMITH Birth: 16 APR 1836/ Christening: 07 MAY 1836 in Inveravon, Banff
Parents: ROBERT GRANT and MARGARET SMITH
The way the entry is written up again implies an illegitimate birth.
Monica
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I found this site after doing a search for James Grant and Margaret Smith, Married on the 18th of Dec, 1857. They were married in Stevenson, Ayershire, Scotland by Rev. ames Crookshanks of the Established Church. I have this info via a printed 50th anniversary program for them (complete with photos) as it was celebrated in Cumberland MD, Dec 18 1907. The program also includes a list of the children - Mrs. John B MacFarlane, John F. Grant, James Grant, Jr, Thomas Grant, Mrs. Frank O Spain, Mrs. Charles W. Fries, Albert C Grant, Mrs. Frank G Crane. Grandchildren are listed as - Mary B. MacFarlane, James G. McFarlane, Donald W. MacFarlane, John B. MacFarlane, Jr., Margaret S MacFarlane, Margaret Swain Grant, James Grant III. Frank O. Spain, Jr., Donald G. Spain, Carl W. Fries.
More photos in next post.
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I have more photos but it won't let me post htem
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Hi gcoa
Re unable to post images.
The image size must be less than 500kb if you have a look at the link below it will explain all. I have been there. Had the same problem Still get it when I forget (age thing).
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting.php#add_attach
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Hi....Just read your query about Christina Grant/William McPherson.
Christina Grant was the daughter of John Grant who was the son of Lady and Lord Grant. It seems that she ran off with William and was consequently ruled out of the family. Their son was John Grant McPherson who married Mary McNicol Bruce.
My father researched this intensely in 1980s and after visiting and viewing parish records put the marriage of William and Christina in 1839.
I am a direct descendant by the way !
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John Grant Mcpherson was my great grandfather. His parents were William McPherson and Christina Grant. Christina was the daughter of John Grant who was the son of Lord and Lady Grant. It seems Christina ran off with William, hence the lack of records. She may have been disowned by the Grants ? May have been pregnant with John Grant Mcpherson ?
John Grant McPherson had 8 children, one of whom was James Alexander Bruce McPherson ( my grandfather )
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Christina Grant and William Mcpherson were married in 1839 at Aberlour. They had 4 children, one being John Grant Mcpherson. Christina was born in Archiestown.
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Hi,
We are directly related!
My great great grandmother was Jane McNichol Bruce too.
And her daughter Mary Bruce married my great grandfather, John Grant McPherson.
My grandfather was James Alexander Bruce McPherson. We've always had the same family story about the runaway Marriage!
I've just discovered this site today,
Andrew Bruce McPherson
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Christina Grant and William Mcpherson were married in 1839 at Aberlour.
Have you found an original document to back this up, or was it an estimate based on the date of birth of their son John?
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The marriage of Christina Grant and John McPherson was documented in parish records my father researched in 1970s to 80s. He travelled all over Scotland and England visiting each parish. This was pre- internet days !
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So you must be my cousin Jean? Confused by the MaryJMac posting name!
Andrew
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The marriage of Christina Grant and John McPherson was documented in parish records my father researched in 1970s to 80s. He travelled all over Scotland and England visiting each parish. This was pre- internet days !
Statutory civil registration began in Scotland on 1 January 1855, and the legislation that established it also required every Church of Scotland parish to hand over its parish registers to the Registrar General for Scotland for safe keeping. The Aberlour Church of Scotland parish register is included among these, as you can see from https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//research/list-of-oprs/detailed-list-of-old-parochial-registers-of-scotland.pdf which was published in 1872. These are the registers that form the basis of the church records on the Scotland's People web site.
Therefore if your father found a record of the marriage locally it cannot have been in the Church of Scotland registers, because by the time he was searching locally the Church of Scotland registers had been in Edinburgh for over 100 years.
The marriage isn't listed on the Scotland's People web site in the Church of Scotland records, the Roman Catholic records or in the assorted dissenting churches' records. It's not listed in http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp, which includes an index to the surviving Episcopalian* registers in the present-day area of Moray, which includes the part of Banffshire where Aberlour is situated. It's not in the International Genealogical Index, which is an index compiled by the Mormon Church that includes among others the births and marriages in the Aberlour parish register.
*The Episcopal Church of St Margaret in Aberlour was built in 1875-1877 and the article on Aberlour in the Statistical Account of Scotland, written in 1845, does not mention any religious denomination other than the Church of Scotland. As the brief for the articles included a specific question about how many Episcopalians were in the parish, it is reasonable to suppose that in 1845 there were few or indeed none. See https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/essay/sjsquestions
So there are three possibilities.
First, the record is there in either the Church of Scotland or the Roman Catholic or dissenting churches' parish registers but has been omitted from both the Scotland's People index and the Mormons' index. That's simple enough to check because it's easy to get a look at a microfilm of the Aberlour parish register, or to inspect the various digitised registers in a Scotland's People Centre.
Second, your father did not in fact find a documentary record of the marriage and had to estimate the date of the marriage. I'm afraid that I think this is the most likely explanation, especially since he only gives a year, not a specific date within that year. (Nothing wrong with estimating a date - I have to do it all the time because of the gaps in the records.)
Third, and this is why I am asking, your father found a register of some kind that has escaped the attention of the Church of Scotland, the Registrar General for Scotland and the Moray Local Heritage Centre, and if that is the case I'd like to know what it is and where he found it so that I know about it for future reference and can refer to it in the hope of filling in some of the gaps and estimates in my own tree.
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My father would have been very conscientious and recorded only accurate details. Sadly he has been dead many years so cannot back this up but I have a copy of all his research.
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I'm not questioning your father's research. I am suggesting that he was unable to find documentary proof of the date and place of the marriage of John McPherson to Christina Grant, and that he estimated that they were married in 1839 in Aberlour. If he had found documentary evidence he would have been able to include the actual date, not just the year.
This sort of thing is very common because of gaps in the records, and it is perfectly proper to make an estimate, as long as it is clear to anyone who comes along afterwards that it is an estimate.