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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Tjapaltjarri on Saturday 14 October 06 19:15 BST (UK)
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After many years of searching I have finally made contact with the family of the Pilot, Squadron Leader Geoffrey Charles Matheson, who was killed in action with my wife's father, his navigator, Fl. Sergeant Laurence W Bush on the night of 23-24/8/43.
They were together at 51 OTU,Cranfield from 13/4/1943 before being attached to 418 RCAF squadron.
These photos of the Mosquito Intruder training course may be of interest to others. They include Charles "last time" Scherf, DSO DFC & bar of 418 squadron and "Pip" E.T. Orringe, DFC of 605 squadron.
We would be interested to hear from other family members with links to the men in these pictures.
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Pip Orringe was Navigator with my uncle Alan Wagner in 1944 when he got his DFC and Alan a bar to his. Alan was killed in the July in a Hawker Tempest chasing a V1 in fog at night over southern England. I wonder if Pip survived the War and if he, or any of his family, might read this.
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Pip Orringe did survive the war but was killed in an air crash in 1953. http://www.shadowsoftime.co.nz/squadron53c.html
I have made contact with his family and understand his younger brother is still alive.
Howdie
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Hello, this photo is of No 1 Course, 60 OTU (which was formed from 51 OTU at RAF High Ercall in Shropshire). I have an interest in the Shropshire airfields and would be very interested if you could send me an email at tomthorne83ATyahooDOTcoDOTuk
I have full list of all names on both photos. There is a copy of this photo in the war diary for 60 OTU and it lists all the names and what squadrons they were posted to and also their fates. Of the 12 pilots photographed, eight are listed as being killed or missing. All of them went on to serve with either 23 or 418 Squadron's, except for Sgt R G Aldworth and Squadron Leader B G Taylor AFC who went to 605 Squadron.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Tom
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Thanks for your posting Tom, I will email you with what we have learned of the other people in the pictures.
It is interesting that the information given us by the RAF historical records unit was not absolutely accurate in the regard of the OTU being 51 or 60 ! I take it that it was 51 when they joined it but that the war diary for 60 covered also the unit when it was numbered 51 ?
best,
Howard
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Thank you so much for your reply. I was sad to learn of Pip Orringe's death. Do you know what happened? If you are in touch with his family would you care to ask them if they would be prepared to allow me to contact them.
Nick
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Hi there i have just found this site while trying to find out some info about my Grandad "PIP" Eric Orringe.Came acroos the pictures of the squadron and if anyone could get in touch by e-mail or would be willing to ring my mum,his eldest daughter Gillian,please leave a posting here and i will then forward contact details. Hope someone can help,sincerely Cheryl. :)
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Hi ,
I saw this post, and can tell you kit cotter served with 23, and finished his tour, but was killed, possibly in a car crash in germany in 1948-more than that I dont know.
He did serve in Malta and Italy before returning to the UK
I am writing a book, or trying to, on the squadron at little snoring, of which my father was a member, and anything like the OTU pictures are gold dust, and if anybody can tell me anymore about any members of 23 squadron, I would be thrilled. (Or have any pictures of 51, 54, or 60 OTU)
I will quit happily email members excerpts if they wish to see what ive been up to.
I would really like to find out where F/Lt Lignon (Free french Air Force) is buried-his nav, manny callas in in the Reichswald cemetary.
Mine is an obsession much like Geneology.
best to all
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I found this on John Augustin Le Rossignol (front row second from the right, labelled L'Rossignol) who was with 23 Squadron briefly. (as would have my late father-in-law had he not 'volunteered' to join the 418 Squadron after having received his tropical kit and been assigned to 23 Squadron in Malta).
born Berlin, Germany 25.09.1911.
Son of Robert Le Rossignol, British physical chemist who was working for the Auer Lighting Company, later to become 'Osram', and Agnes Emily Le Rossignol, of Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire, later of Harrow, Middlesex.
KIA 05.09.1943 [age 31] [Catania War Cemetery, Sicily, II.C.9]
HTH,
Howdie
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Having come back to look at this subject after a period of years I am wondering if the man identified by Tom Thorne as BG Taylor AFC was in fact Ronald George Taylor AFC (37578), gazetted Flt Lt. April 1940, temp squadron leader Sep 1941 temporary wing commander 18/1/1944 with seniodity from 1/7/1943 which would conincide with a posting to 605 squadron after the OTU course. He was transferred to the reserve list in November 1944 as a temp. w/cdr.
It would be interesting to know the names, initials and RAF numbers of the other men in these photos.
Best,
Howdie
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Dear All
Sadly I think the Aldworth in the top photo and Mulcair in the 2nd photo are F/Sgt Richard George Aldworth and P/O Kevin Joseph Mulcair (RCAF) who were lost on January 10th 1944 when they failed to return from one of the first operational sorties of the new year with 605 (County of Warwick) Squadron. The two young men, Aldworth who was only 20 years old and Mulcair who one year his senior were never found and both are remembered on the Runnymede Memorial on panels 215 and 252 respectively.
Very sorry to hear the news re Pip Orringe, I had always wondered what became of him.
He and Wag were a superb team!
Kind regards
Ian
605 Squadron
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Hi there i have just found this site while trying to find out some info about my Grandad "PIP" Eric Orringe.Came acroos the pictures of the squadron and if anyone could get in touch by e-mail or would be willing to ring my mum,his eldest daughter Gillian,please leave a posting here and i will then forward contact details. Hope someone can help,sincerely Cheryl. :)
Hi Cheryl
My name is Ian Piper and I am the historian for 605 (County of Warwick) Squadron who Pip served with.
I would love to help in any way I can.
Kind regards, Ian
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Hi Ian,
Thanks for the information on Aldworth and Mulcair.
Can you shed any light on the identity of the name of the Sqn/Ldr Taylor on this course? Is it Ronald G Taylor? and does his posting to 605 squadron match with the dates?
Many thyanks for your help,
Best,
Howard
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Hi Howard
According to my records Pip Orringe did join 605 with a S/Ldr Taylor:
"Another fine crew joined the Squadron in early July when S/Ldr Taylor AFC and F/O E.T. "Pip" Orringe became the latest recruits. Pip was soon known by the nickname "Beauvais Orringe" due to his continued inability to locate that particular occupied airfield. His plight was made all the worse by a rather sweeping and misguided statement he made to the Squadron Navigation Officer "You can't teach me anything about map reading", which was overheard by some of the men."
Kind regards, Ian
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Thanks Ian,
The point I am trying to establish is whether the Sqn Ldr Taylor in the photo is Ronald G Taylor and not BG Taylor as listed by Tom Thorne in the documentation from the records at High Ercall. This seems most likely to be the case and might enable a search for any relatives he might have. I just wondered if the documentation for 605 squadron gave more detailed information on his christian name.
Best,
Howard
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I have just been directed to this forum by Ian Piper. My father was Pip Orringe and I followed his career into the RAF as a pilot in 1963. His death in the Hastings at Abingdon in 1953 led me to follow a career in flight safety. The accident was apparently caused by the mechanical elevator trim tab gust lock being left in and missed on the pre-departure check. The aircraft took off in this condition and crashed back onto the airfield.
I have sent Ian some photographs and will be pleased to share these with any 605 Squadron enthusisasts and particularly with relatives of Alan Wagner. Father gave me the middle name of Alan in memory of his skipper - oddly enough I never acquired the nickname Pip!.
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Hello Twinwoods,
I was very interested to see your posting.
Family legend says that Eric and my wife's dad were keen rivals. I got the impression from her mum that she was not especially liking of Eric, I suspect because of his enormous self-confidence and self-belief.
She told us that Laurie Bush was a bit miffed when he was "pipped at the post" by Eric for the honour of best student on the Navigation School at Cranwell and that therefore Eric had the honour of carrying the "sword of honour" at the passing out parade.
I don't know whether you have any photos or other information from your father that might confirm this.
Best regards,
Howard
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I am trying to contact Ian Piper regarding my Grandfather - Capt Tarkowski - a Polish Pilot who flew in 605 in 1940.
Could somebody please pass on my email address mattm1970@hotmail.com to him ?
Many thanks
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Matt,
If he's receiving replies to his posting he should get this but if you make another couple of postings on the baords you will be able to send him a personal message yourself.
HTH
Howard
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I have been searching for information about my older brother, P/O Kevin Mulcair of the 605. If anyone has any further information, stories, pictures, or recollections of Kevin, I would be grateful if they could send them to me
Looking forward to hearing from you,
Vi (Mulcair) Hirst
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Hi I read with interest your articles and saw the name of Laurence W Bush, I am interested because of my family history (my hobby), I believe the widow of Laurence to be Ivy Maud nee Redgrove, if I am correct this makes your wife, I believe their only daughter my 3rd cousin, my connection is through the Redgrove line.
Kindest regards
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Very new to this! My father was Ronald George Taylor and I have tried with little success to find any of his mates .Sadly he died when I was ten in 1958.I did buy Ian Piper's book on 605 squadron but did not find Ian particularly helpful.Anyway it is certainly him in the picture of51 OTU at Cranfield and I remember the puppy called Pooch as a boy.Would love to contact anybody who knew him or of him.I live in the Isle of Skye.
David Taylor
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Re: Squadron 605.
My brother Pilot officer Kevin Mulcair was a member of 605 in Cranford. On Jan. 11th,1944 he and his pilot F/Sgt.Richard failed to return from one of the first operational sorties of the new year. They were never found and later presumed dead. We received only a cable and never received further info. I still think of him often and even though I am 10yrs. younger I still remember seeing him off at the railway station in Montreal (he was with the RCAFat that time) on his way overseas in 1942.
I have a picture of the Squadron with just the last names written above and one name is Taylorand probably your dad. His pilot on his last mission is in a 2nd. photo.
I too would love to get more info but I would imagine most of them are now diceased. Vi (Mulcair) Hirst.
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Hello Vi,thanks for the reply.So sorry you never found out about your brother.At least I knew my father,but only as a young boy.
Is your photo of 51 OTU.There are two on the net,one shows the pilots and the other the navigators.There appears to be a Taylor in both,but my father was a pilot and is shown holding a puppy.
Anyway keep in touch.My email is (*)
kind regards
David Taylor
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Re: Squadron 605.
My brother Pilot officer Kevin Mulcair was a member of 605 in Cranford. On Jan. 11th,1944 he and his pilot F/Sgt.Richard failed to return from one of the first operational sorties of the new year. They were never found and later presumed dead. We received only a cable and never received further info. I still think of him often and even though I am 10yrs. younger I still remember seeing him off at the railway station in Montreal (he was with the RCAFat that time) on his way overseas in 1942.
I have a picture of the Squadron with just the last names written above and one name is Taylorand probably your dad. His pilot on his last mission is in a 2nd. photo.
I too would love to get more info but I would imagine most of them are now diceased. Vi (Mulcair) Hirst.
The Reverend Roger Gurnett of Spirit River, Alberta, pictured amongst the navigators on this course was a Canadian and did reply to a letter many years back about my wife's father. It is possible he or members of his family are still alive. He had a remarkable memory even though his contact with these men was brief.
HTH
Best, Howard
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My Uncle, Fl/Lt G C R Moody was posted to 51 OTU on 12th March 1943 at Twinwood but moved to Cranfield on 10th April 1943. After his course he was posted to 23 Squadron in Malta on June 16th. He and his navigator, Peter Gladman were killed on a raid on their 3rd sortie on June 25th '43.
I have a photograph of No 4 course 60 OTU taken in August 1941 at East Lothian. This may not be at the time that you were after.
Carbs
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Hi Howard,
I sent you a pm a few days ago, did you read it ?
Regards
Sarah
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Yes, but wasn't quite sure of where to reply to. [sometime later edit] Have found the reply button at last. rofl