RootsChat.Com
Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: Ruskie on Wednesday 20 December 06 06:49 GMT (UK)
-
I know there has been a discussion on rootschat about the meanings of symbols carved on headstones, in particular the skull.
I have a question which has been bugging me for years and I USED to know the answer, but can't for the life of me remember it.
When inside a church you see a 'tomb' with an effigy on top, what is the meaning of the dog at the feet of the effigy? I kindof remember being told that it means that the person died in battle, but don't know if I remember correctly or if this is true. Often the person has crossed legs too - what does this mean? Sometimes there is an animal other than a dog - what does this represent?
I've googled but can't find a definitive answer.
Does anyone know?
-
As I remember, the crossed legs meant that the man had been on a crusade.
-
I'm sure I read somewhere that a dog at the feet of an effigy symbolised fidelity,
-
Most effigies are depicted with their feet resting on a beast, a lion usually indicates a man and a dog a woman. These figures are more often symbolic than heraldic, however the use of other animals can be significant, for instance the effigies of the Martin family of Athelhampton rest their feet on an ape which was the family crest.
All manner of explanations have been attributed to the detail of effigies. Cross-legged knights were said to have been castrated by the Saracen, while those depicted drawing their swords must surely have died in battle. ("The English Parish Church" by Stephen Friar)
In medieval art dogs frequently symbolize fidelity, and a dog is represented as lying at the feet of St. Bernard.
Stan
-
Thanks for the replies. Stan, I have seen both lions and dogs at the feet of male effigies. Seems as though these symols are open to interpretation. More please - this is interesting.
-
This is some more informaton that I have found:
It is often stated that the legs being crossed means that the knight was a crusader, however there is no evidence to support this. Some antiquarians believe the legs were crossed because it was the fashion of the time and is not a crusader specific feature. However most people believe that so drastic a straining of the figure must have some meaning. It is believed that a crusader who had been once to Palestine, to fight the Saracens, had his legs crossed at the ankles, twice crossed below the knee, and three times crossed above the knee. However, according to one source, a mere vow to serve under the banners of the cross, without actual performance, appears to have given them the right to be represented in this way.
Stan
-
Thanks very much for that Stan.
I vaguely remember being told something about the crusades with reference to effigies. Thinking about it though (and I am in Australia so can't pop out to check for myself unfortunately but I have visited the odd UK church in my time) there are many such effigies in many churches in the British Isles - surely they can't ALL have been in the crusades?
Perhaps that is how the symolism began, maybe the original meaning was lost but effigies continued to be represented in this way because it looked grand and impressive for wealthy families. The dog meaning loyalty makes sense.
Another thing - are the bodies still inside those tombs today? Would the bodies have been placed inside a coffin and then the coffin placed inside the tomb? If they are opened today would there be remains inside?
-
So glad it doesn't mean the same as when I've got crossed legs !
These two pics are from Hereford Cathedral (ignore my cousin in the second one !)
The first has a dog ... and the second one, so sad, has a child tucked up with the mother ... would this mean the child died with the mother, or later ? Stupidly, I didn't note the names or much detail ... was taking the pics for the cousin ! I'll look closer at these next time I'm in the cathedral ... this is an interesting thread and I want to know more !
-
Lovely pictures - thanks for posting them. They're so colourful. I've not noticed any coloured ones before. Perhaps they were all painted originally? I notice no animals at the feet of the couple. I wonder if that is significant? That dog is really lovely - looks like my golden retriever with it's head on the master's knee.
You'd assume that the baby died at a similar time to the mother. I know many of them have their wife beside them. Were those that didn't unmarried or were they not as well off and just went to town on the more important dead person's grave ie. the male? Only joking, but that's probably what they thought.
-
:-\ I'm sure that in the early days of Rootschat Chris 1066 put up a thread which covered the meanings of grave stone symbols etc :-\
I'm dipped if I can find it though - Can one of the moderators resurrect it I wonder?
Suey
-
Oh, I hope that post is still around - I would like to read it. I might go googling again - I couldn't find what I was after last time.
-
Hello Mods ? Anyone there ? Can you point us to the past thread please ?
(No-one listening ... think they are all out Christmas shopping !)
-
They'll have to pop in sometime Lydart. In the meantime I found this:
http://www.timetravel-britain.com/columns/roots/roots04.shtml
Interesting but doesn't really answer my question.
&
http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/chesttombs/chesttombs.htm
-
:-\ I'm sure that in the early days of Rootschat Chris 1066 put up a thread which covered the meanings of grave stone symbols etc :-\
I'm dipped if I can find it though - Can one of the moderators resurrect it I wonder?
Suey
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,94264.0.html
-
This is good, but no dogs:
http://members.aol.com/TombView/symbol2.html
Thanks for that Stan - I'm off to read it now.
-
That's an interesting site ... thanks !
What do people think about this:- in your opinion, have you found that ag lab ancestors from the 1800 - 1860 or so times, dont have graves that you can locate (they may just have been marked with a long gone wooden cross) but the more recent ones are findable (so I'm told ... never found any of mine !) :( :(
-
Lovely pictures - thanks for posting them. They're so colourful. I've not noticed any coloured ones before. Perhaps they were all painted originally?
Through the thirteenth to the fifteenth centuries most of the effigies were carved in stone, usually Caen stone or Alabaster. Early effigies were usually coated with gesso (a mixture of size and whiting) and painted. Remember that in the late middle ages the churches, themselves, blazed with brilliantly painted stone and woodwork. Even the smallest church was liberally decorated with wall paintings.
If the effigies were on a tomb chest then the bodies should be inside however the term 'tomb' is sometimes used to describe various forms of monument which are not necessarily erected over the plce of intrnment.
Stan
-
Yes Stan, I do believe there was lots of colour used then.
I read on one of the sites I posted earlier, that outside the bodies were buried under the ground as usual and the tomb built above ground but I always wondered about the ones inside churches. Interesting - thanks.
Lydart - re your question. I'm in Australia - my ancestors came here in the mid 1800's. Only found a few graves and no trace of the oldest one c. 1889. I guess it would depend on quality of materials as to how long they last, even taking into account pollution etc?
-
Here's another topic on this theme:
Topic: Spooky Gravestone Markings
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,171301.0.html
Bob
-
Thanks for that Bob.
-
Hi Ruskie,
(just in case you haven't had enough already ;D )
As it's a common question, I've collected some topics about gravestone markings, etc, here
Topic: RootsChat Topics: Graveyards, Gravestones, Gravestone Symbols, etc.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,203252.0.html
Enjoy,
Bob
-
Thanks for the afternoon's reading matter Bob !
And a happy Christmas to you and yours too !
-
Thanks for the additional information Bob. I'm going to check that out now ... still looking for dogs at the feet!
-
I've been googling dogs on medieval tombs ... two suggestions I've found so far suggest the dog is a symbol of:
a) fidelity in marriage ... or ...
b) the dog's role is to accompany the dead in eternity, like the angels that also sometimes appear with tomb effigies
Still Googling !
-
This may be one of the sites Bob suggested ... keeping his until later for a good read ... but try this one ...
http://www.darktreasures.com/Graveyards/SymbolsLanguageofTombs.htm
-
Thats great, thanks Lydart - it's going into my favourites! And a mention of dogs!!!!!
-
Hi,
My gt gt gt grandfather's gravestone has a Star of David with a capital G in the centre. He definitely wasn't Jewish, but can anyone tell what it means please?
Thanks,
Holly
-
Hi Holly,
Have a look at Gravestones & Symbols http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,203252.0.html
Stan
-
If the Knight depicted in effigy on a tomb died in battle in another land ,the body would not have been buried there, only the bones as knights had as part of their equipment a large cauldron in which the body was boiled because otherwise there would inevitably be natural decay and only the clean bones (and the heart which would have been preserved in some substance, possibly frankincense) returned to their family. At the site of the battle of Agincourt the museum there gives ,or gave last time we visited ,a detailed account of this. Tombs were below floor level, smallish vaults, and what you see is all above the coffin. In Bruges the tombs of Charles the Bold and his daughter Mary of Burgundy are partly opened to show the highly decorative paintings on the walls of the small underground chambers where the coffins or caskets lie. Cor, this is getting ghoulish!Viktoria.
-
The effigy dogs symbolize faithfulness to God, their Christian faith, specifically. The lions symbolize that the person defended their faith, and, the crossed legs, as expressed correctly in an earlier post, was thought to represent Crusader Knights, or Knights Templar... I am personally of the belief that it represented or designated a Knight Templar as it is always portrayed in Templar Church effigies. William Marshal's effigy would be such an example.
-
surely they can't ALL have been in the crusades?
The ones with inside tombs will be the wealthy ones. It was common back then for young men to go off on a jolly good holiday - the crusades. That many DID go. It was what they did, like a Gap Year for students these days really.
-
A very old thread with some interesting late replies coming in.
I was actually surprised to discover that I had started it! ;D
PS. Welcome to rootschat Jinglebolix (love the name ;))
-
The crossed legs is to show the man was in a battle and had no time to go.
-
We must not read too much into the symbols on tombstones and always bear in mind the context.
Whilst the symbols on ancient tombs such as many found in churches will have the specific meanings given later tombstones in graveyards may not.
Stone masons had books of patterns allowing the customer (the person buying the stone, not the person it is commemorating) the ability to choose what was carved on the stone.
In most of those books it was like a tatooist book of designs, pictures with no meanings.
The customer could ask for a symbol with no idea if it meant anything or just looked good.
Another book contained verses if a verse was required.
Cheers
Guy
-
The picture of the painted knight in Hereford Cathedral is Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford (1276-1322)
-
The effigy dogs symbolize faithfulness to God, their Christian faith, specifically. The lions symbolize that the person defended their faith, and, the crossed legs, as expressed correctly in an earlier post, was thought to represent Crusader Knights, or Knights Templar... I am personally of the belief that it represented or designated a Knight Templar as it is always portrayed in Templar Church effigies. William Marshal's effigy would be such an example.
Jinglebolix,I am reading a book about William The Marshal,A very noble man ,a true Knight and an honourable man .
Viktoria.