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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: mahees on Tuesday 06 March 07 13:58 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I stumbled upon the case of Barbara Waterhouse who was murdered brutally in Horsforth in 1891 aged just 5. Walter Turner later hung for the crime, and his mother Harriet was jailed as an accessory. What interested me was that according to Harriet's testimony, they visited the workshop of a Thomas Joy in the White Swan Yard off Crown Street, and later, after disposing of the body in Leeds town centre, visited his house. I think Joy was a relative of Harriet Turner.
My GG Grandfather was called Thomas Joy and lived in Leeds at this time. according to the 1891 census he worked as a Labourer and lived in Lumb Square.
Does anyone have more info on this case, or know anything about the Thomas Joy mentioned in this testimony?
I am basically hoping to rule out a connection via the internet, and failing that I will visit Leeds Central Library for further info on the case.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer me assistance on this.
Cheers
Erin
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Hi Erin,
Harriet Joy born 1847 Leeds 23 415,let's see if we can marry her to a Turner..
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She's the only one who I can find,and Ive just found the case,Walter was 32, so it can't be the above,I can't find a marriage between Turner and Joy either...
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Thanks for that, Oonagh.
There was a George Joy present in the house on the night of the murder who was Harriet's grandson according to the book I've got, it doesn't state the relationship to Thomas Joy, so I'm wondering if the Joys were in-laws of hers. My GG Grandfather's wife's maiden name was McCormack, though she was orphaned as a baby, so I can't entirely rule that out, but it's difficult to work out exactly how Harriet and Thomas were related.
Maybe a daughter's husband if it's not my GG Grandfather, or a daughter's husband's brother or something. I have just found a Thomas Joy marrying a Jessie Turner in Leeds in 1877, which would seem to rule my GG Grandfather out of the story.
All speculation so far though.
Cheers
Erin
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Hi Erin !
Well I had this site that USED to be free ..... ::) I just tried it and now you have to pay ..... I see you don't need it now - but in case anybody else is reading the thread - I'll post it - it may be of some to somebody ! ( by the way it is a good site !! :)
http://www.murderfile.net
Annie :)
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Thanks Annie,
It seems like quite an interesting site anyway, even if it doesn't relate to your family history.
Erin
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HI
According to The Times newspaper Walter Lewis Turners mother was Ann?
No Harriet mentioned in the read ups on the court hearings
Wendy
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That's weird. In my book 'Foul Deeds and Suspicious Deaths in Leeds', it says Harriet.
Maybe it was a middle name, or a pseudonym.
Erin
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Hi,
Looking at the 1891 census the Thomas Joy (aged 47) living at back of Crown Street did have a wife called Jessie (aged 33 born Nottingham) and a son aged 12 called George. Thomas was a Bookbinder and both he and his wife are listed as being Deaf and Dumb. If you want the full transcript let me know.
Regards,
Mo
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HI
Walter Lewis Turner had a sister Jessie M who was born circa 1858 Nottingham and was shown as being Deaf and Dumb from having a fever in the earlier census.
If you further details just ask
Wendy
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Hi All
Thomas Joy who had a wife called Jessie (Maiden name Turner)married her in the Jan to March quarter of 1877 in the Leeds Reg District
Wendy
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Hi
When was your relative Thomas Joy bn and where? Just so we can check for you that they are not distantly related to the Joy - Turner triangle
WEndy
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The Times says that Barbara's middle name was WHITHAM - does that fit in anywhere?
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I have actually had some confusion about the history of my Thomas Joy.
There was 2 of the same age living in Leeds at the time-born c1851, one married to my GG Grandmother Mary McCormack, and one married to a Sarah Smales, both marriages taking place in 1869. Both these Thomas Joys are on the 1891 census, one as Joy and the one married to my GG Grandmother as Joye, but I was in touch with someone on Genes Reunited with him on the tree and recorded as being married to both of them, so either his information was wrong or Thomas was a bigamist. I asked him about it, but he never got back to me.
There was a couple of Thomas Joys around in Leeds at this time, and as I haven't got a marriage certificate for them as yet, I put any further research on him on the backburner. That is until I came across his name in the story of Barbara Waterhouse.
Whitham doesn't ring a bell, but I don't think the murderer Walter Turner had anything to do with the girl's family before she was killed.
Thanks to everyone for being so helpful,
Erin
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Hi, I picked up this thread today and out of interest Babara Waterhouse was my great aunt. She was one of seven children who lived at the back of the Black Bull in Town Street Horsforth. Several yards from the Green where Walter Turner lived with his mother.
Your research in terms of where they took the body is correct and I would be interested to learn if Thos Joy was a relative.
If you have been to Horsforth or intend visiting, go to the museum on the Green where you will see a framed photograph of Barbara in her coffin on the wall. It belonged to my gt uncle who kept it over the mantle for years. Something the Victorians did, in those days.
good luck with the research, very interesting.
David :)
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Hi David,
Welcome to Rootschat :D
It's really interesting to hear from someone related to the case! I have worked out that this Thomas Joy was not my Great-Grandad, but I understand the Joy family was quite large and I haven't been able to say for certain whether he was related at all. The area of his address certainly fits with my family. I plan to get my Great-Great-Grandad's marriage cert in the next few weeks, and finding out who his parents were should help me to work out whether he was a relative, so watch this space for that :)
I have been to Horsforth, but I wasn't aware of a museum; I live in Leeds and I'll certainly pay it a visit. In the book where I read your Great Aunt's case there is a photograph of the picture you mention. I don't know if you've come across the book before, but it is called 'Foul Deeds and Suspicious Deaths in Leeds' by David Goodman. I have a general interest in local history and found it very interesting.
Thanks for posting, it's all interesting stuff!
Erin :)
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Ok, I might be getting confused, it looks like I am not directly related to the Turners, but may have some connection to the aforementioned Thomas Joy, Thanks to all for help on this. :)
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Hello.
i know its been two years but ive only just come across this.
Babara waterhouse is my great-grandads aunt.
His last name is whitham, and it was her maiden name. My family are in possion of a police report about her case which is 33 pages long, so i could look at it and give you your info? if you tell me directly what you need i shall look
at the report soon as.
:) :)
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Hi came across this purely by chance I see the last Post was 2009 but was interested as the girl was my grandads great aunt and his middle name was whitham I did not know the significance of this as I know nothing about his family his full name was Samuel whitham Waterhouse and lived in horsforth. I would be keen to hear from anyone who has any more family details?
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Hi Jessica and NCooper it is likely that we are all related somewhere down the line. I moved away from Horsforth in the mid 70's (my parents are still there, so i visit regularly).
I did collect a hugh amount of archive press coverage relating to the murder from the central library in Leeds which makes for interesting reading, including the speculation that the London Ripper may have travelled to Yorkshire! I still have the information plus some photographs recovered from my uncle following his death. It was quite bizarre as the library is/was the town hall where her body was deposited by Turner and his Mother.
My Gran would have been Barbaras younger sister had she lived.
I did intend to put something together but haven't quite got around to it...
Must keep in touch....albeit its a long time since i viewed this page, but will return periodically.
Best wishes....
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Hi Jessica
Read your family link to poor little Barbara Waterhouse with interest since I am currently researching the whole sad story.
I note that your family have a copy of the police report. Might this include the inquest details by perchance?
Would be so grateful for any insight you may be able to offer as to the contents of the report if at all possible. Thank you for your time. Marie
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DTDOWNSOUTH.
I too began collecting info about the Horsforth case back in 1999, then put it away until I got it out again this year. Just going through the info I have at hand now. Be glad to have your thoughts on the case?
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According to the marriage register both Thomas Joy & Jessie Maria Turner were deaf and dumb
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According to the marriage register both Thomas Joy & Jessie Maria Turner were deaf and dumb
DTDOWNSOUTH. Thanks for reply. I know this might sound odd, but I don't feel that the police got their man even though he had previous form. Something is not quite right. What are your thoughts on the matter? Marie.
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DTDOWNSOUTH.
I too began collecting info about the Horsforth case back in 1999, then put it away until I got it out again this year. Just going through the info I have at hand now. Be glad to have your thoughts on the case?
DTDOWNSOUTH
Unsure the police actually got the right man even though he did have previous form. Marieliza
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Interesting post
Is this the same walter who attempted to murder his wife in 1889 in shipley.
Lee
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Interesting post
Is this the same walter who attempted to murder his wife in 1889 in shipley.
Lee
Yes Lee it is.